D40x........does it deserve such high praise?

Started May 28, 2007 | Discussions
Ken_5D Forum Pro • Posts: 11,820
Re: D40x........does it deserve such high praise?

Svein Eriksen wrote:

I think it's a cost/benfit issue. The intended market don't
need/wont pay for the features so they don't get them.
If a camera needed all features to get a highly reccommended then
no P&S or entry level dSLR could ever get a highly reccommended.

If a camera is missing features that others in the same exact prices range or maybe features that ALL others in its class have. Then Highly reccomended is just not appropriate..

I am not sure I know of any other DSLRs without bracketing...

I would have no problem reccomending and D50 or XTi to a friend who had Nikon lenses or really liked the brand and was on a budget.. I will never reccomend a D40.

Spot Metering was a deal breaker for me when I was shoping.. I thought when I started I was going to get the Canon.. But I know that is not an issue for most.. But bracketing is one of those tools that saves some shots once you learn to use it.

So what all this crippling of entry level cameras does is move some knowledgeable buyers on a budget into another camp.

And if the opninion makers like DPREVIEW... don't call them on it.. they will keep turning our cameras that don't support basic photography.

No need to get nasty.. just give it a "Reccomended" so people know it has some missing features... that they might want.

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PhotoTraveler Forum Pro • Posts: 11,700
Re: D40x........does it deserve such high praise?

Just because it's software doesn't mean it's something they will put in.

You have to create differences in your products. Companies will remove things from products that save them no money, maybe even cost them some money, but it gives them a product structure to work with which gives them more flexibility in pricing.

Remove something on the camera with $30 profit on it that actually results in you only making $29.5 profit on it because of the effort on designing that feature out (in this case removing code from the software and testing it). But now you made that feature which remains on the next higher model have something of desire. That model has $100 profit on it. So now you cost yourself 50cents profit on one model, but boosted sales on the model that makes 70 bucks more than the cheaper model.

Camera makers don't remove stuff that no ones uses. Thus video out and direct printing features remain in cameras, even if it's a very rare person who uses them. No one will buy the higher end model to get them. Infact many would pay a few bucks more to have the camera not come with them. Sorta like scene modes, when you buy a higher end camera, you are paying to remove stuff you don't use/want.

PhotoTraveler Forum Pro • Posts: 11,700
Re: D40x........does it deserve such high praise?

You would recommend a discontinued camera to a person???

Also, the 400D doesn't have an inbody focus motor, does that make it bad?

OP Barry Fitzgerald Forum Pro • Posts: 29,888
Re: Bracketing is...

Mr Ralf wrote:

... for cameras with malfunctioning metering resulting in bad
exposure...
...like KM5D maybe..?!?! (just guessing here)

Despite the fact that the 5D got universal great reviews...and compliments no how good the metering is?

Unlike the D80..........and note the continuos stream of "my D80 overexposes"....and even Ken Rockwell said it was the worst nikon ever for metering. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm you are reaching. The KM5D isnt perfect...has its issues too...but what it does have is a full feature set..and even more over at the time competitors....even today the spec is great.....of course 10mp is the norm.

I have no problem with the D40 as a cheapo entry level camera.........issue here is the UK price is not cheap! Its no cheaper than the D50 was......its more expensive.....what gives?

And I seriously doubt why anyone wants to buy an SLR and use auto mode only..whats the point in that? Go get a fuji F20 (nice enough as it is) if you want simple. SLR is about choices......and nikon have stripped it down to not a lot.
--

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Svein Eriksen Senior Member • Posts: 1,871
Re: D40x........does it deserve such high praise?

But all cameras in ths class miss something, or at least is worse than others. Look up the table at page http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond40x/page20.asp

The D40(x) wins on some points and loose on some. So does the 400D. I'd really like spot metering, bracketing and mirror lookup, and why not throw in body stabilisation too? None of these offer everything.

Ken_5D wrote:

If a camera is missing features that others in the same exact
prices range or maybe features that ALL others in its class have.
Then Highly reccomended is just not appropriate..

Ken_5D Forum Pro • Posts: 11,820
Re: D40x........does it deserve such high praise?

PhotoTraveler wrote:

You would recommend a discontinued camera to a person???

As long as the company is still there to support it.. you bet. KM bailing is the only reason I don't reccomend my KM5D to others... I would assume Nikon would still service and support the D50 and D70 just fine.. and there are NIB ones still to be had I think.

Also, the 400D doesn't have an inbody focus motor, does that make
it bad?

But you see Canon has never had AF lenses with a body motors so the budget buyer can easily choose to get a nice used Canon AF lense and it will work. There are now tons of nice Nikon lenses that are nearly useless to D40 users. But hey Nikon wants them to buy new lenses so all is fine.

:P~
------------
Ken - KM 5D
http://www.cascadephotoworks.com

Ken_5D Forum Pro • Posts: 11,820
Re: D40x........does it deserve such high praise?

Svein Eriksen wrote:
But all cameras in ths class miss something, or at least is worse
than others. Look up the table at page
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond40x/page20.asp
The D40(x) wins on some points and loose on some. So does the 400D.
I'd really like spot metering, bracketing and mirror lookup, and
why not throw in body stabilisation too? None of these offer
everything.

Ken_5D wrote:

If a camera is missing features that others in the same exact
prices range or maybe features that ALL others in its class have.
Then Highly reccomended is just not appropriate..

You just described the Sony A100 which has a Street Price $650ish

Spot Metering, Bracketing, mirror lock-up (using 2 sec delay) and in body stabilization.. and wireless flash triggering with the built in flash..etc.
for the exact same prices and the D40x

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Ken_5D Forum Pro • Posts: 11,820
Re: D40x........does it deserve such high praise?

PhotoTraveler wrote:

Just because it's software doesn't mean it's something they will
put in.

You have to create differences in your products. Companies will
remove things from products that save them no money, maybe even
cost them some money, but it gives them a product structure to work
with which gives them more flexibility in pricing.

Remove something on the camera with $30 profit on it that actually
results in you only making $29.5 profit on it because of the effort
on designing that feature out (in this case removing code from the
software and testing it). But now you made that feature which
remains on the next higher model have something of desire. That
model has $100 profit on it. So now you cost yourself 50cents
profit on one model, but boosted sales on the model that makes 70
bucks more than the cheaper model.

Camera makers don't remove stuff that no ones uses. Thus video out
and direct printing features remain in cameras, even if it's a very
rare person who uses them. No one will buy the higher end model to
get them. Infact many would pay a few bucks more to have the camera
not come with them. Sorta like scene modes, when you buy a higher
end camera, you are paying to remove stuff you don't use/want.

I'm a certified Product Manager and Product Marketing Manager.. I know exactly why they did it. To make sure no one gets a REAL Nikon DSLR for less than a grand..($90 low street)

The D40 is meant to force new hobbyists into a D80 and make the D40 feel obsolete to anyone who grows into a hobbyist / photographer so they have to upgrade just to do what Photograhpy for Dummies suggest (bracketing some tough shots)

Its cynical as hell.. and when a leading site like DPREVIEW lets it slide. they will just keep doing it. Next time they might take out Aperature Prioroty mode...Then Shutter..Priority.. manual..etc. Heck do these new users even really need to chose thier own ISO?

It will just be a P&S designed to sell lenses to people with too much cash and no photo education. And along the way a some people who assumed Nikon meant great cameras will find they got sold an illusion of a DSLR.

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BraveUlysses Senior Member • Posts: 1,580
Re: D40x........does it deserve such high praise?

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

A list of areas that could be considered minus points:

No in camera motor, limits lens choice.
No exposure/wb bracketing.
3 point AF system.
Reduced on body controls.
No DOF preview

None of these features are relevant to the target demographic. As has been often noted in these forums, the people buying the D40/D40x are those who would have otherwise considered a bridge cam, but decided that the extra few dollars was well worth the great leap in image quality. I think Nikon have it right where it needs to be.

As ever its not all bad...but considering the UK price is about
£430, level with the A-100, and a little less than the Canon 400.
Does a price of £300 sound a bit more like it? After all if Nikon
chopped out so much, to reduce costs, surely the buyer would be
able to live with this more.

But UK prices on everything are insane. I know, I'm visiting for a while. 17.5% VAT, FFS, what's with that?

I find it hard to understand how maker gets high praise for
chopping out features (some of which are pretty damn
handy...exposure bracketing is an absurd one to leave out)

How so? Most people who shoot with 'real' cameras don't know what exposure bracketing is, so what use would it be to its target market? And in the bad old steam-powered film days, you just moved the controls a little between shots to get the bracketing done. Easy, if you put a little thought into it.

Buyers looking to expand their lens range with s/h or non nikon
lenses are going to have some serious limitations, who wants to buy
an AF lens that wont AF? I could say that this is an interesting
ploy to help nikon lens sales

See my note above - most buyers of this camera will NEVER buy any more lenses than the supplied ones - I'd hazard a guess that those who buy the single lens kit will only take the lens off once, straight after they get it out of the box, just to see how it works. After that, they'll have a damn fine PnS camera that can grow if they need it to.

This might be a good camera for someone new to SLR's, a P&S
dabbler..or upgrader..might just not care and get the twin lens
kit, serious users are going to find that the shortcomings are less
easy to live with.

Serious users (and what are they, anyway?) won't be buyig a D40/x - that's not where Nikon are aiming the camera.

Imagine a slightly larger body (its too small for my hands), and
all the issues above addressed.......Nikon could have had a real
killer camera here, they missed the chance.

Can you say D80?

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Rob

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BraveUlysses Senior Member • Posts: 1,580
Re: D40x........does it deserve such high praise?

Ken_5D wrote:

they will keep turning our cameras that don't support basic
photography.

'Basic photography' is NOT a camera with all the bells and whistles. 'Basic photography' is what we used to have. Since the advent of digital, there has been no 'basic photography', as there has been no 'basic camera'. The D40/x is as close to that ideal as it possible to get these days.

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sandy b
sandy b Veteran Member • Posts: 9,334
Well lets see

The D40x will outsell the "only" Sony DSLR by prolly 5-1, so yeah, I think Nikon is smart to release this camera, after all, they actually sell a product "line", and give their consumer choices and levels.

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BraveUlysses Senior Member • Posts: 1,580
Re: D40x........does it deserve such high praise?

Ken_5D wrote:

You just described the Sony A100 which has a Street Price $650ish
Spot Metering, Bracketing, mirror lock-up (using 2 sec delay) and
in body stabilization.. and wireless flash triggering with the
built in flash..etc.
for the exact same prices and the D40x

You can't use that argument. Sony has no 'legacy of great non-AF glass' for potential buyers to commit sepeku over missing out on. If you flame Nikon for ignoring those people, you can't ignore Sony's position in the market, either.
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Svein Eriksen Senior Member • Posts: 1,871
Re: D40x........does it deserve such high praise?

Yes, but that's only (some of) my personal preferences. What about high iso noise, shutter (mirror) sound, size and wheight etc. I'm not particulary trying to defend D40x (or it's highly reccommended), but you can always find something to dislike about a camera.

Tim in upstate NY
Tim in upstate NY Veteran Member • Posts: 7,120
BraveUlysses

BraveUlysses wrote:

Can you say D80?

..........Most of these complainers don't use Nikon and don't want to see Nikon doing well in the marketplace. It's obvious that the D80 is the best choice for any new person who is concerned about a path for future upgrades. These guys are nuts if they think that most entry level DSLR buyers will ever want to do that though. These forum complainers probably know this but still can't resist a chance to bash Nikon and DPR because of their issues.........SONY, KM, Oly and even Pentax fanboys......all of them!

....It's satisfying to know that none of the Canon guys are interested in this kind of subterfuge. Liike the Nikon users, they're probably busy shooting photographs with their 'crippled' cameras........lol

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ajay0612
ajay0612 Senior Member • Posts: 2,799
Re: D40x........does it deserve such high praise?

BraveUlysses wrote:

None of these features are relevant to the target demographic. As
has been often noted in these forums, the people buying the
D40/D40x are those who would have otherwise considered a bridge
cam, but decided that the extra few dollars was well worth the
great leap in image quality. I think Nikon have it right where it
needs to be.

And what about an enthusiast who doesn't have too much cash to buy a D80 soon as an upgrade? He will deifinitely step over and go for Canon 400D or A100. The crux of the matter is: When competition is offering more at same price point, you have to match them at least and even exceed with some USP. What is Nikon D40X's USP over 400D (similar size) or A100 (with in-body I.S.)?
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NNS Veteran Member • Posts: 3,614
Re: D40x........does it deserve such high praise?

A lot of excellent posts concerning this camera and it's target buyer.

What I don't understand is the need to bash the camera. Look, those of us who own other NIKON DSLR's are happy. Heck, why not an entry level DSLR that takes great shots in auto.

It's all good.

Ken_5D Forum Pro • Posts: 11,820
Re: D40x........does it deserve such high praise?

BraveUlysses wrote:

Ken_5D wrote:

they will keep turning our cameras that don't support basic
photography.

'Basic photography' is NOT a camera with all the bells and
whistles. 'Basic photography' is what we used to have. Since the
advent of digital, there has been no 'basic photography', as there
has been no 'basic camera'. The D40/x is as close to that ideal as
it possible to get these days.

That was a joke.. right.. Bracketing is a Bell and Whistle?
funny even my Canon 29 years ago had DOF preview... another Bell and Wistle?

gong to bed .. point has been made
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------------
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BraveUlysses Senior Member • Posts: 1,580
Ken.

Get off the hobby horse mate - the wheels have worn out. Stop hating Nikon for whatever they've done to you and move on. Life is too short to get liverish about a camera. If you don't like it, don't buy it or recommend it. If you really don't like it, don't buy or recommend Nikon. Ever. That'll teach them, won't it?

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Rob

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Ken_5D Forum Pro • Posts: 11,820
Re: D40x........does it deserve such high praise?

Svein Eriksen wrote:

Yes, but that's only (some of) my personal preferences. What about
high iso noise, shutter (mirror) sound, size and wheight etc. I'm
not particulary trying to defend D40x (or it's highly
reccommended), but you can always find something to dislike about a
camera.

True... I just found it interesting that the list of "not all can have ..." was all on the A100...

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Ken_5D Forum Pro • Posts: 11,820
Re: D40x........does it deserve such high praise?

BraveUlysses wrote:

Ken_5D wrote:

You just described the Sony A100 which has a Street Price $650ish
Spot Metering, Bracketing, mirror lock-up (using 2 sec delay) and
in body stabilization.. and wireless flash triggering with the
built in flash..etc.
for the exact same prices and the D40x

You can't use that argument. Sony has no 'legacy of great non-AF
glass' for potential buyers to commit sepeku over missing out on.
If you flame Nikon for ignoring those people, you can't ignore
Sony's position in the market, either.
--
Rob

I think Sony's postion is 2nd over all with Nikon in 7th for all digicams and 3rd place for DSLRs in the last 6 months of 2006.(not sure how 2007 will shape up). With a Ton of legacy quality glass from Minolta.. that people can choose from.. even some nice MD lenses with a simple adapter than can be used MF at bargain basement prices.

But then again.. I just need to compare it to the XTi and we see Nikon has won the race to cripple its low end DSLR.

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