blindfolded - talking about the resolution

Started May 18, 2007 | Discussions
Seemolf Senior Member • Posts: 1,243
blindfolded - talking about the resolution

dSLR freaks tell us, that we see "nothing" compared to their optical viewfinders.

There is some truth in these words after I saw my experiments with the Sanyo xacti E6 (having the one cm macro onboard):

First the LCD of the FZ5:

next the "EVF"

and now the real life:

I have missed such pictures in the tests up to now...

How do we ever get nice sharp images?
Is the camera that good???

..I would like to have a better "finder" again.

Sven

Barry Fitzgerald Forum Pro • Posts: 29,888
Um.......

Well the FZ-5's evf has been improved......somewhat, in newer models.

And I know some around here love some aspects of EVF, overlay, live histogram etc etc. But OVF to me always feels better. Sorry it just sucks using an EVF now...its bearable at best to me...

I dont know how much better they can get..sure they can up the res..but they have not done so much of late. I think your wished of a better one are not likely to be heard for some time.

I think someone said its like looking down a toilet roll at a tv for an EVF........have to agree. It need not be a complete deal breaker...but for action shots its not ideal.

I await getting burnt now! lol

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OP Seemolf Senior Member • Posts: 1,243
Re: Um.......

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:
..

I await getting burnt now! lol

No Barry,

this point of view is very much appreciated.
I've got a shock when I saw these pictures.
This low resolution explains so many of my problems with the focus.

Improvements??
Even 100% more resolution would not help much.

I liked my FM2 so much, where is the digital back for that Nikon?

Sven

luisflorit
luisflorit Veteran Member • Posts: 8,183
Re: Um.......

I await getting burnt now! lol

No Barry,

this point of view is very much appreciated.
I've got a shock when I saw these pictures.
This low resolution explains so many of my problems with the focus.

Improvements??
Even 100% more resolution would not help much.

I liked my FM2 so much, where is the digital back for that Nikon?

Speaking about my reasons to buy a FZ50...

One of them was the manual focus ring, because I missed a lot of pictures with my other cameras that always try to focus on leaves behind (impossible to use the MF buttons of the Nikon's CP). But the MF of the FZ50 was a big disappointing for me, since I just cannot use it, probably also because of this: I just cannot see when the subject is on focus. But the spot focus of the FZ50 is good.

I tried recently an old 135mm lens more than 50 years old from my father, that was even 'foggy' because of lack of use. Still, the focus ring was a joy to use, and the OVF and focus was amazingly clear and easy to use.

Of course the EVF also have its pros. It's very nice to have all the info on it.

L.

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captain dan Contributing Member • Posts: 759
Re: Um.......

Boy...you got it. When you use an SLR or dSLR, you never actually see the picture you take, because the mirror flips up and blanks out the optical view. With my FZ30, I only see a bit of the picture that I take. I am often surprised by objects that appear in the picture, that I never saw in the electronic view finder.

The other day at a high school baseball game i switched from my dslr to the fz30. It was like the space-time fabric had ripped and tore right through my visual cortex. I can say that an optical view finder beats an EVF. Better evf's would be nice.

Roger

luisflorit
luisflorit Veteran Member • Posts: 8,183
Re: Um.......

captain dan wrote:

Boy...you got it. When you use an SLR or dSLR, you never actually
see the picture you take, because the mirror flips up and blanks
out the optical view. With my FZ30, I only see a bit of the
picture that I take. I am often surprised by objects that appear
in the picture, that I never saw in the electronic view finder.

In fact this is another problem: EVF lag. The image you see is not in real time, but the image of an instant before. So, when you press the trigger and review your shot, you're "back from the future".

The other day at a high school baseball game i switched from my
dslr to the fz30. It was like the space-time fabric had ripped and
tore right through my visual cortex. I can say that an optical
view finder beats an EVF. Better evf's would be nice.

Indeed!!! Just more resolution and less lag.
L.

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ingda Regular Member • Posts: 226
Re: Um.......

These posts echo my complaints. I take a lot of pictures of my dog and young grandchildren -- none of which remain stationary for long. What with shutter and evf lag I am frequently late in capturing the image I think I will get. The display lag in the evf is the worst culprit. I have been experimenting with pre-focussing and framing, and then using no viwfinder --just shooting what I see naturally. sometimes it works. I read quite a while ago about advances in lcd display by which the refresh rate was improved by a huge factor. If such technology was applied to the evf display, perhaps the time lag would be improved. I just don't know what technology would be needed to deal with the problem. Here's hoping.
--
ingda

luisflorit
luisflorit Veteran Member • Posts: 8,183
Re: Um.......

ingda wrote:

These posts echo my complaints. I take a lot of pictures of my dog
and young grandchildren -- none of which remain stationary for
long. What with shutter and evf lag I am frequently late in
capturing the image I think I will get. The display lag in the evf
is the worst culprit. I have been experimenting with pre-focussing
and framing, and then using no viwfinder --just shooting what I see
naturally. sometimes it works. I read quite a while ago about
advances in lcd display by which the refresh rate was improved by a
huge factor. If such technology was applied to the evf display,
perhaps the time lag would be improved. I just don't know what
technology would be needed to deal with the problem. Here's hoping.

In the meantime, perhaps you can give the RDS (Red Dot Sight) a try. You can find many threads in this forum about the RDS. I don't use it myself.
HTH,
L.

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Joesiv Veteran Member • Posts: 5,497
Re: Um.......

I find this all to be true, going back and forth from my DSLR to my FZ50, the difference is amazing, it's hard to live with the EVF after you use the OVF just before.

Having said that, if I don't use the OVF for a while, I find the EVF/LCD fine. Not for manual focusing though, it's still tough, can be done easily on stationariy objects, but not on moving targets.

Also I find that using Stabalization mode 1 will make the EVF "lag" much much greater, if you guys are using mode one, consider trying mode 2, this is becuase it's no longer the EVF lag, but the stabalization lag.

I find that with stabalization off, or mode 2, the lag is quite managable, even for action shots, if doing single shots (bursts forget about it, the OVF wins hands down).

I still have have the dilemna when using the OVF that I'm never 100% sure of what I'm getting though, as someone said, you never see what the camera sees, becuase the mirror flips up while the picture is being taken, not only that, but the OVF gives no feedback on highlights/shadows, making exposure a lot more of a guessing game (to me at least).

taking a picture with a dSLR, taking my eye away from the OVF, (waiting for the buffered shots to preview on my D), reviewing the pictures, realizing I'm too dark, or too light, then putting my eye back to the viewfinder, seems like an eternity compared to EVF shooting, where i can tweak the exposure for end picture perfection before I shoot...

I still find my FZ50 a joy to use, but yes, MF is still not perfect
--
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Erik37 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,558
A bit misleading

Sven, number three isn't equivalent with
what a DSLR OVF would show. To get some
focus aid and DOF representation, the focus
screen is ground, which adds a coarseness to the
image. You should IMHO have posted a view
through a DSLR finder too for comparison.

Of course the main point would still be the same
but as it stands it's somewhat exaggerated.

Would be cool if someone could do a comparison to
the FZ8 which got praise for its EVF in the review.

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden, main tool: F Z 5

Barry Fitzgerald Forum Pro • Posts: 29,888
Re: A bit misleading

Erik37 wrote:

Sven, number three isn't equivalent with
what a DSLR OVF would show. To get some
focus aid and DOF representation, the focus
screen is ground, which adds a coarseness to the
image. You should IMHO have posted a view
through a DSLR finder too for comparison.

Of course the main point would still be the same
but as it stands it's somewhat exaggerated.

Would be cool if someone could do a comparison to
the FZ8 which got praise for its EVF in the review.

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden, main tool: F Z 5

Its true the OVF isnt as shot.....however..its not far off! You wouldnt notice much degrading..bar the obvious reduction in light etc...smaller etc etc.

EVF is vastly inferior for clarity.......hands down. Very hard to manual focus with, and not good for DOF representation. Not to say in some areas it doesnt have some advantages..or course..but for pure quality. Its a very very distant runner up.

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OP Seemolf Senior Member • Posts: 1,243
Re: A bit misleading

Erik37 wrote:

Sven, number three isn't equivalent with
what a DSLR OVF would show.

I never said anything like this, but SLR people (I have have been one some time ago) have no problem to find the focus.

focus aid and DOF representation, the focus
screen is ground, which adds a coarseness to the
image. You should IMHO have posted a view
through a DSLR finder too for comparison.

Sorry this was just a spontaneous view at my camera during a short break.
..it gave me a hint what professional testers could do for us.

There is no dSLR in my bin, but I could try to use my Nikon FM2 for such a comparison.

Of course the main point would still be the same
but as it stands it's somewhat exaggerated.

..well, I often don't see the focus clear enough.
..and I am not alone with this problem.

Would be cool if someone could do a comparison to
the FZ8 which got praise for its EVF in the review.

Yes, a picture would be better than a review!

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden, main tool: F Z 5

thanks, Erik!

Cheers

Sven

Erik37 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,558
Re: A bit misleading

Seemolf wrote:

Erik37 wrote:

Sven, number three isn't equivalent with
what a DSLR OVF would show.

I never said anything like this,

No, but you started by saying: "dSLR freaks tell us, that we see
'nothing' compared to their optical viewfinders."

So I think some readers might get the impression picture number
three represented the DSLR.

but SLR people (I have have been
one some time ago)

I still have my Konica SLR, maybe I will shoot a test myself, if my other
digicams have close enough focus.

have no problem to find the focus.

Actually fast lenses can't be reliably manually focussed on a DSLR
wide open, at least not without a split prism and it's still hard, all
according to this page:
http://www.jayandwanda.com/photography/dslr_man_focus/man_focus.html

Though my objection was mainly about looks, not focus functionality.
Focus on an unmagnified EVF of this modest class is of course hopeless.

Sorry this was just a spontaneous view at my camera during a short
break.
..it gave me a hint what professional testers could do for us.

No need to say "sorry", Sven :), I appreciate your post, I just wanted
to make sure readers don't draw the wrong conclusions.

Another point: the size when looking at the pictures on a normal
computer screen gives a FOV much bigger than reality, which also
exaggerates the difference, making the EVF look worse than it is.

Just my two oere
Erik from Sweden, main tool: F Z 5

OP Seemolf Senior Member • Posts: 1,243
Re: A bit misleading

thanks Erik,

the missing SLR finder is shown in this thread.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1033&message=23295405

My xacti gave me the chance to show some differences.
This is not an complete test scenario.

Cheers

Sven

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