Is Sigma Too Early in its Announcements?

[Erik Magnuson]

So I suppose my point is that it's rather useless to
quibble about "announce" vs "launch"

Let's contrast how Pentax handled this. Back at PMA 2006, Pentax was "pleased to announce the exhibition of three upcoming digital SLR camera products, all currently under development,". OK, perfectly clear that these products are not final.

How about Panasonic (with Olympus): "Olympus will exhibit the E-330, a recently introduced product that incorporates jointly developed technologies, and Panasonic will announce development of the DMC-L1, its first digital SLR camera. A prototype of the DMC-L1 will also be exhibited." Also pretty clear where things stand.

nor do I think Sigma has been any way out of line.

Who says they are out of line? It seems they could do a better job communicating though.

--
Erik

 

[madmaxmedia]

Hi Erik,

I agree, the web page you linked to is unclear. There is no information given on status of the camera, or anticipated launch date.

I haven't looked at the Sigma site myself. When the camera was announced at Photokina, Sigma seemed to make it clear that the DP1 was early in development. All the news articles stated as such as well. So it was from that perspective that I questioned the original poster as to why he would be so concerned that the DP1 is still not available.

It would be better for Sigma to clarify on their website when the DP1 is coming, or even to simply state that a release date has not yet been announced, and is forthcoming. That would seem to make it clear that the camera is not about to be imminently released.

I don't think Sigma has intended to deceive anyone about the DP1, given that they didn't make any misleading announcements in person. I think they have just been a bit careless about the web pages on the DP1.

--
http://www.madmaxmedia.com

 

[gbainbridge]

Those not following the Leica IR issue may be surprised as I was
that this problem is not unique to Leica.

An interesting link. I wonder how the Sigmas would fare in that test?

--
Thanks,
Gary.

 

[Franka T.L.]

They have announced the product alright, but also they had specifically say that it will not be available yet and in fact the DP-1 is just but a prototype and no firm date for releasing for retail ... so by that account I do not see that as anything negative about the issue.

Its only a issue that consumers look at the product and simply turn a blind eye towards these fact that's plaintly stated.

--

• Franka -

 

[Roland Karlsson]

Because it takes time to come up with a whole new sensor and camera
like the SD14. And I suspect the parallell develop works a lot
better when all you are doing is upgrade tweaks.

A whole new sensor?

Hmmm .. I have not heard anything yet that says that it is a whole new sensor. It has slightly more detectors. It has an improved micro lens array. It has better noise characteristics. It is made by a new chip plant. Thats all I have heard.

I would be very interesed in hearing about any technical improvements or new solutions you know of.

--
Roland

 

[Roland Karlsson]

Again, a rather substantially realized "concept." And one that
produces good pictures, which is what photography is primarily
about.

I think Paulo talks mainly about a market concept. And there I think he has a point. The SD series of cameras has in practice not existed on the market for a rather long time now. You had to buy used cameras or maybe search and find one e.g. in Perth.

Maybe the SD-14 will change that. If not - then it is still a project for a digital camera system that might take off some time.

--
Roland

 

[Roland Karlsson]

They have announced the product alright, but also they had
specifically say that it will not be available yet and in fact the
DP-1 is just but a prototype and no firm date for releasing for
retail ... so by that account I do not see that as anything
negative about the issue.

Its only a issue that consumers look at the product and simply turn
a blind eye towards these fact that's plaintly stated.

... I cannot find anywhere that it is not available on any announcement.

http://www.sigma-photo.co.jp/english/news/dp_1.htm

http://www.sigma-imaging-uk.com/dp1.htm

http://www.sigmaphoto.com/news/news.asp?nID=3281

They all say that they are pleased to announce the launch. Maybe my English is not good enough - but too me a launch announcement without a date means that it is launched, i.e. there exist product samples that either can be bought or at least is out for a limited number of people, e.g. reviewers.

That we in this forum (thinks) we know better is of no interest for other than us.

--
Roland

 

[Laurence Matson]

about the definition of the word "launch", although we likely agree. I did not see any of this stuff. My guess is that, like a ship, the hull has been launched and been pulled into another drydock for fitting.

The DP1 was clearly announced as mock up or concept much like a
design study at an automobile show.

While they "told" people that at photokina, that's not what they
wrote in the public press releases:

http://www.sigma-photo.co.jp/english/news/dp_1.htm

"The Sigma Corporation is pleased to announce the launch of the
new, groundbreaking Sigma DP1 compact digital camera featuring a 14
megapixel FOVEON X3 direct image sensor (2652 × 1768 × 3 layers) as
used in the Sigma SD14 digital SLR."

Where on this "official word from Japan" does it imply anything
other than it's a ready-to-ship product? Or do they mean "launch"
like you launch a cruise ship: the hull is floated but the interior
still has several months of fitting out before it's ready to sail?

Sigma indicated to several
people at photokina that they hoped to deliver this in the first or
second quarter of 2007. We'll see.

Again, is there anything like this on the Sigma website or other
non-rumor communications?

--
Erik

--
Laurence

My idea of good company is the fellowship of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation and liberality of ideas.

Jane Austen

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com

 

[Laurence Matson]

Roland,

You are amazing when you get an ideefix in your head. You will now hammer this point for a few months, supporting your point of view with the same link time and again while ignoring all of the other pertinent information related to the topic.

Yes, Sigma was/is unfortunate in their use of the word "launch", which, as Eric pointed out, means "release to the general public" for many people. Not everyone, but a sufficient proportion to call for caution when using it.

All of the other information available to you indicated that it would be available at a later date. In some instances, I believe there was mention of the first quarter or first half of next year, but I will have to depend on other sleuths to help me out there.

However, now you are going too far by what you wrote here. You are implying that Sigma is being disingenuous. Of course they are, in your eyes, because you have that ideefix in your head too: Sigma lies because they count pixels in a different way from you.

Learn to look for bigger pictures. In some way you remind me of the worst of what an engineer can be: focused on just one tiny point in one frame while ignoring the rest of the issue.

• so why pretend it exists? Pretending it exists will not give you

a cent in income or any credits either - just strange questions and
confused people.

I have worked for a company that pretended all the time and that
lied about how far they have got. They got orders for things they
did not have and could not deliver and they got zero orders for
things they already had to sell because the customers thought it
was outdated. It was a sort of lose-lose situation.

Do also a search on what Kazuto Yamaki said about DP1 in Photokina
interviews.... try Yamaki and SP1 as keywords in a Google search ..
you'll find quotes.

Yes - I can search for quotes from Yamaki. And I have read this
forum. So I am more knowledgeable than most. Therefore I know that
the camera is not ready yet ... and it will take some time before
it is. But ... why should anyone that don't read this forum (and
that sees the announcement) search for Yamaki?

--
Roland

--
Laurence

My idea of good company is the fellowship of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation and liberality of ideas.

Jane Austen

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com

 

[spm]

Because it takes time to come up with a whole new sensor and camera
like the SD14. And I suspect the parallell develop works a lot
better when all you are doing is upgrade tweaks.

A whole new sensor?

Hmmm .. I have not heard anything yet that says that it is a whole
new sensor. It has slightly more detectors. It has an improved
micro lens array. It has better noise characteristics. It is made
by a new chip plant. Thats all I have heard.

I would be very interesed in hearing about any technical
improvements or new solutions you know of.

--
Roland

consider "new sensor" ?
here are the information:
sensor for sd10
http://www.foveon.com/article.php?a=119

sensor for sd14
http://www.foveon.com/article.php?a=222
http://www.foveon.com/files/F13_image_sensor_Product_Flier_RevD.pdf

that is so nice of you to be so positive about anything Sigma/Foveon Roland and let's not try too hard, it is killing you that I know.

 

[Peter Spader]

Vaporware never makes it to the street, and many market "concepts" stay in the head. If you mean the SDxx series has not yet taken a large market share, that is true. But these cameras are real products producing real pictures. The fact that Sigma sold out before they brought a new camera does not reduce the Sigma SDxx series to a concept.

Pete

 

[Laurence Matson]

With your list in hand, what would I have to add to it for an imager to qualify as a "whole new sensor"?

Just Curious

Keep looking for that rainbow.

Because it takes time to come up with a whole new sensor and camera
like the SD14. And I suspect the parallell develop works a lot
better when all you are doing is upgrade tweaks.

A whole new sensor?

Hmmm .. I have not heard anything yet that says that it is a whole
new sensor. It has slightly more detectors. It has an improved
micro lens array. It has better noise characteristics. It is made
by a new chip plant. Thats all I have heard.

I would be very interesed in hearing about any technical
improvements or new solutions you know of.

--
Roland

--
Laurence

My idea of good company is the fellowship of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation and liberality of ideas.

Jane Austen

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com

 

[Laurence Matson]

What's your record in the smashed thumb, bent nail, crooked cut, stripped thread, bad angle, short circuit department?

As a photographer, you should be able to use any tool to take great pictures. Since you images support that point, why blame your SD9 (review your own postings about why you did not change to the SD10)? All you are doing is make yourself look silly by not have the evidence to support your point.

And where would you be had you made another decision? You would be in the Canoon forum complaning about complex menus and back-focusing problems. Or in the Nikon forum and complaining about banding issues that will not go away in your D200. Or in the Pentax forum and complaining about how your images are not as sharp (in fact, they are horribly soft unless you keep them small) as those you keep going back to in the Sigma Users Gallery. Or in the Leica forum and dirt poor but still complaining about puzzling color shifts. Or in the Oly forum and lovin' those colors (riding the bandwagon) but still complaining about the noise or the noise or even the noise plus mush. Or in the Sony forum and longing for the good ole KM days when the world was in order but still complaining about STILL having dust on the imager and why can't they get that in order. Or in the Lomo forum and having fun.

It is Sigma again! I am a bit of a Sigma basher (some might think
this is an understatement). I never stopped criticising their
commercial timing, quality control, marketing??? department,
technology, lack of coherence or knowledge on always lost "War of
Pixels". Read all my threads (it is all there).
I stated a while ago that Sigma has no interest in cameras. Lenses
yes! Cameras, maybe... not! Sigma has benefited a lot with the
appearance of the SDs. Selling 20,000 of them with a profit of $200
per unit? Peanuts!
However appearing in the main arena with the "big" ones has
benefited their lenses department... a lot. Can we have some
numbers of their lens market share in 2001 against 2006?
The SDs are the ultimate "vapourware" substantiated in hard plastic.
They are not good cameras (AF, metering, battery, viewfinder...)
They have not good flashes/system.
The have not a (good) quality control.
On the other hand
They take good pictures
They have a good customer service.

At present and for the foreseeable future they are just a
photographic "concept".
I can live with it but there are days when I come home and see my
X3F files OF, BWB, BE, WI I cannot help myself but to curse my
photographic "option" taken more than 3 years ago.
--
Paulo Ferreira
(equipment in profile)
http://www.pauloferreira.co.uk
http://www.azuzarte.com
http://www.pbase.com/pauloferreira
http://www.pbase.com/sigmasd9/paulo_ferreira

--
Laurence

My idea of good company is the fellowship of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation and liberality of ideas.

Jane Austen

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com

 

[Erik Magnuson]

about the definition of the word "launch",

Or we can argue about the definition of "clearly" or even what "was" was or "is" is -- if you'd rather ;-)

--
Erik

 

[jrdigitalart]

If I remember correctly, you actually hinted in one of your original SD14 posts way back in September that the actual "to market" release date was some time next year.

Anyway, I'm having far too many rewarding experiences with my SD10s to bother about all this launch talk. It is a truly fantastic creative tool for me.

When the SD14 arrives, well and good, but some of you (not pointing at you Laurence) ought to get a life and enjoy what you've got, right now, TODAY!

Happy trails, JR

 

[Laurence Matson]

With the full range of the English language to argue about, this should be fun. In the meantime, I am going to have little exchange with Sigma's English-language proofreader.

Otherwise, I will concede your rightness with respect.

about the definition of the word "launch",

Or we can argue about the definition of "clearly" or even what
"was" was or "is" is -- if you'd rather ;-)

--
Erik

--
Laurence

My idea of good company is the fellowship of clever, well-informed people, who have a great deal of conversation and liberality of ideas.

Jane Austen

http://www.pbase.com/lmatson/root
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr/root
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd10
http://www.pbase.com/cameras/sigma/sd9
http://www.beachbriss.com

 

[Roland Karlsson]

Vaporware never makes it to the street, and many market "concepts"
stay in the head. If you mean the SDxx series has not yet taken a
large market share, that is true. But these cameras are real
products producing real pictures. The fact that Sigma sold out
before they brought a new camera does not reduce the Sigma SDxx
series to a concept.

OK - Paulo is exaggerating. SD-9 and SD-10 are not vaporware - they exist.

But the SD system was in a state of vapor for some years. On both Sigma and Foveons sites it looked like SD10 was a product even though no one made it. This is very dubious IMHO.

It is also somewhat like that for DP1. As far as we know, reading this forum, it is in a rather early stage and when it will really be released we don't know - maybe even autumn 2007 for all I can deduce. Still it is launched according to Sigma sites. Thats vapor if anything is.

Personally this irritates me. Foveon/Sigma are playing games I don't like; games that they should not play IMHO. Be more honest to the world and the world will like you better. I don't believe in stupid marketing games.

--
Roland

 

[Roland Karlsson]

With your list in hand, what would I have to add to it for an
imager to qualify as a "whole new sensor"?

Maybe some information about the sensor?

--
Roland

 

[NarrBL]

Roland, you're not making much sense here, I'm afraid.

With your list in hand, what would I have to add to it for an
imager to qualify as a "whole new sensor"?

Maybe some information about the sensor?

--
Roland

 

[Roland Karlsson]

...

... for the links Seng.

Those are technical briefs of Pro 10M and FX17-78-F13. I don't know if Foveon has more in depth technical descriptions of the sensors that are public. As I am very interested in technology, this would be very nice.

Now - what can I deduce from the briefs?

1. They have essentially the same functionalities. The briefs are written slightly different - so it is not possible to know for sure though. But I think this is the case.

2. The new sensor has more pixels.

3. The new senor is faster - at least for video.

4. The new sensor has 62 dB DR. It is said to be improved, but not how much.

5. The new sensor is capable of significantly longer exposure times - which reports from Photokina "proves". It would be very interesting to know how this has been achieved! This is an essential improvement IMHO.

6. The new sensor is said to have broader ISO speed capabilities, but not by how much.

Now - all those are relevant improvements. Except for maybe the long exposure capabilities I see nothing that cannot be just common improvements, i.e. nothing that makes it neccessary that something really has been redesigned.

Thats why I say that according to my knowledge - this is not an entirely new chip. In an entirely new chip I would expect new functionality, some architecture changes or some new technical solutions.

Now - it might be a completely new chip of course. What a technical brief tells does not really tell how the chip is made. Even a chip that does essentially the same thing might look totally different.

But until I know this - I can only see that some years later a very similar looking sensor is used in SD-14.

--
Roland