Micron to Unveil 8-Megapixel Image Chip

Started May 18, 2006 | Discussions
Jimmy Chen Veteran Member • Posts: 3,260
Micron to Unveil 8-Megapixel Image Chip

Here is a link: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060518/D8HM1AM03.html

"We're saying it can go in a point-and-shoot camera selling in the $200 to $300 range"

highlights:
CMOS, not CCD
10 fps at 8mp, 30 fps at 2mp

-- hide signature --

jc

Paul H Contributing Member • Posts: 583
Re: Micron to Unveil 8-Megapixel Image Chip

Jimmy Chen wrote:

Here is a link:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060518/D8HM1AM03.html

"We're saying it can go in a point-and-shoot camera selling in the
$200 to $300 range"

highlights:
CMOS, not CCD
10 fps at 8mp, 30 fps at 2mp

I suppose it's news, technically speaking, but it's not anything to get excited about. At best it will mean more low-end to mid-priced cameras sold in bubble-packs at Walmart.

With the surfeit of P&S cameras in the market, I'm surprised Micron would waste its time producing such a pointless "me, too" chip. I don't think current and potential Micron investors are going to be impressed, either.

BobTrips Veteran Member • Posts: 7,848
Re: Micron to Unveil 8-Megapixel Image Chip

Paul H wrote:

Jimmy Chen wrote:

Here is a link:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060518/D8HM1AM03.html

"We're saying it can go in a point-and-shoot camera selling in the
$200 to $300 range"

highlights:
CMOS, not CCD
10 fps at 8mp, 30 fps at 2mp

I suppose it's news, technically speaking, but it's not anything to
get excited about. At best it will mean more low-end to mid-priced
cameras sold in bubble-packs at Walmart.

"(M)ore low-end to mid-priced cameras sold in bubble-packs at Walmart" can easily mean that manufactures will have to lower prices and/or boost capabilities of high end cameras to hold as much of that part of the market as possible.

Personally I wouldn't object to a $29.95 camera with 1Ds MkII performance.

-- hide signature --

bob

The Blind Pig Guild
A photo/travel club looking for members
http://www.jeber.com/Clubs/Blind-Pig/

Flowers of Asia
A photo club for appreciators of Asian flowers - looking for members
http://www.jeber.com/Clubs/Flowers-of--Asia/

Travel Galleries
http://www.pbase.com/bobtrips

Barry Fitzgerald Forum Pro • Posts: 29,888
Re: Micron to Unveil 8-Megapixel Image Chip

BobTrips wrote:

Paul H wrote:

Jimmy Chen wrote:

Here is a link:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060518/D8HM1AM03.html

"We're saying it can go in a point-and-shoot camera selling in the
$200 to $300 range"

highlights:
CMOS, not CCD
10 fps at 8mp, 30 fps at 2mp

I suppose it's news, technically speaking, but it's not anything to
get excited about. At best it will mean more low-end to mid-priced
cameras sold in bubble-packs at Walmart.

"(M)ore low-end to mid-priced cameras sold in bubble-packs at
Walmart" can easily mean that manufactures will have to lower
prices and/or boost capabilities of high end cameras to hold as
much of that part of the market as possible.

Personally I wouldn't object to a $29.95 camera with 1Ds MkII
performance.

In my dealings with micron, I can say they are a superb company..very reliable indeed, it may not be big news, but its probably good news anyway..

On the other hand....CCD does seem to be dominant...

rander3127 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,628
Re: Micron to Unveil 8-Megapixel Image Chip

Jimmy Chen wrote:

Here is a link:
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060518/D8HM1AM03.html

"We're saying it can go in a point-and-shoot camera selling in the
$200 to $300 range"

highlights:
CMOS, not CCD
10 fps at 8mp, 30 fps at 2mp

-- hide signature --

Probably gets horribly noisy at 100 ISO!!!!!
-Rich
E-1, 14-45mm, 40-150mm, OM 100-200mm, OM 50mm,
Meade 1000mm mirror-lens, Orion 500 f5.6.

Paul H Contributing Member • Posts: 583
Re: Micron to Unveil 8-Megapixel Image Chip

BobTrips wrote:

Paul H wrote:

At best it will mean more low-end to mid-priced

cameras sold in bubble-packs at Walmart.

"(M)ore low-end to mid-priced cameras sold in bubble-packs at
Walmart" can easily mean that manufactures will have to lower
prices and/or boost capabilities of high end cameras to hold as
much of that part of the market as possible.

Personally I wouldn't object to a $29.95 camera with 1Ds MkII
performance.

Well, me neither, Bob.

It's just that the market for P&S cameras seems to be quite saturated and the marketing tactic of saying "Buy our Point and Shoot Wonder! Now with 30% more MEGAPIXELS!" seems to have lost a lot of its punch now that the general public is catching on to the fact that more megapixels doesn't mean better 4"x6" prints.

steelslider Senior Member • Posts: 1,065
Re: Micron to Unveil 8-Megapixel Image Chip

From previous discussions here, it would seem these new "el cheap" chips mixed with the proper amount of PHOTOSHOP, will=a "fair" pix for the masses!

Digital Photography NEEDS something like these chips and their possiblities to "level" the playing field with FILM cameras where even the BEST 35mm FILM camera[F6]is THOUSANDS less than top rated DIGITAL cameras!

The future may be now and "average" is certainly what the industry is shooting for...naturally the "quality" part of the equation will follow at a similar pace in the upscale market.
--
Gary

GregGory Veteran Member • Posts: 4,252
Size?

What size is this chip? 8mp and suitable for phones?

rander3127 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,628
Re: Size?

GregGory wrote:

What size is this chip? 8mp and suitable for phones?

-- hide signature --

The article gives the size.
-Rich
E-1, 14-45mm, 40-150mm, OM 100-200mm, OM 50mm,
Meade 1000mm mirror-lens, Orion 500 f5.6.

Ron Parr Forum Pro • Posts: 13,785
Re: Size?

rander3127 wrote:

GregGory wrote:

What size is this chip? 8mp and suitable for phones?

It does not, unless you are satisfied with, "thumbnail sized."

Whose thumb?

On micron's web page, they indicate that it's 1/2.5".

-- hide signature --
Dan Pidcock Senior Member • Posts: 1,915
1" sensor - impressive!

Ron Parr wrote:

rander3127 wrote:

GregGory wrote:

What size is this chip? 8mp and suitable for phones?

It does not, unless you are satisfied with, "thumbnail sized."

Whose thumb?

According to my thumbnail the sensor must be 1" - even bigger than the 2/3" used in bridge cameras.

On micron's web page, they indicate that it's 1/2.5".

Wow that Christopher Smith must have tiny thumbs! I just drew a rectangle 5.8x4.3mm. That is about 1/3 the width of my thumb. So if he's in proportion he must be 2 feet tall!

And why don't they bother putting a link to the source article in as well as a generic link to micron's website. Haven't they hear of hypertext? grrr...

Dan
--
http://photo.pidcock.co.uk/ - Photography information
http://www.pidcock.co.uk/photos - My photographs

OP Jimmy Chen Veteran Member • Posts: 3,260
Re: Micron to Unveil 8-Megapixel Image Chip

It's just that the market for P&S cameras seems to be quite
saturated and the marketing tactic of saying "Buy our Point and
Shoot Wonder!

Except this chip also does 10 fps at 8mp. Of course, an huge buffer is required to seriously use this feature.

-- hide signature --

jc

mikiev Senior Member • Posts: 1,092
Re: Micron to Unveil 8-Megapixel Image Chip

From the link: ... enables pocket-sized cameras and cell phones to capture bursts of 10 high-quality photos in a single second or even high-definition video.

It isn't exciting to think of it as cheapo point&shoot.

I'm more interested in the HD-video aspect.

Since 1080i is "2Mp at 30fps", I wonder what aspect-ratio the 2Mp mode will use?

From the link: "With large memory chips coming out on camera phones, you are talking about capturing 20 to 30 minutes of HD-quality video on a mobile device..."

Only downside is more concern seems to be placed on the "HD-quality" of the chip - with no mention of the cheapo lenses being used.

 mikiev's gear list:mikiev's gear list
Epson Stylus Photo R2880
dylanbarnhart Veteran Member • Posts: 3,268
CMOS is winning over CCD now?

The article briefly mentioned that micron has found a way to make CMOS better than CCD. I wonder what kind of new technology that is. Even though Canon has a superior CMOS technology, it only works for larger sensors like those in DSLR cameras. Canon themselves use CCD for point & shoot.

Also, the frame rate, like 10fps at 8MP or 30fps at 2MP isn't a feature of the sensor. It's the processor and the memory that determines the max frame rate. It doesn't make sense to me at swithing to CMOS raises up the frame rate.

 dylanbarnhart's gear list:dylanbarnhart's gear list
Canon PowerShot G2 Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX7 Panasonic LX100 Canon EOS 5D Mark II Canon EOS 50D +12 more
Ron Parr Forum Pro • Posts: 13,785
Re: CMOS is winning over CCD now?

dylanbarnhart wrote:

The article briefly mentioned that micron has found a way to make
CMOS better than CCD. I wonder what kind of new technology that
is. Even though Canon has a superior CMOS technology, it only
works for larger sensors like those in DSLR cameras. Canon
themselves use CCD for point & shoot.

Manufacturers have been improving the efficiency of CMOS pixels with techniques that share transistors between pixels.

http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/001091

Also, the frame rate, like 10fps at 8MP or 30fps at 2MP isn't a
feature of the sensor. It's the processor and the memory that
determines the max frame rate. It doesn't make sense to me at
swithing to CMOS raises up the frame rate.

It's not just the supporting electronics. The clock speed of the sensor itself is a factor. You can clock CMOS and CCD sensors higher (and this is done for both technologies), but you need to deal with the consequences such as heat and noise.

Many high speed machine vision cameras have been CMOS based for years. In fact, high speed imaging is arguably one of the important niche markets for CMOS technology.

http://www.visiblesolutions.com/

-- hide signature --
Eric Fossum
Eric Fossum Senior Member • Posts: 1,508
Re: CMOS is winning over CCD now?

dylanbarnhart wrote:

The article briefly mentioned that micron has found a way to make
CMOS better than CCD. I wonder what kind of new technology that
is. Even though Canon has a superior CMOS technology, it only
works for larger sensors like those in DSLR cameras. Canon
themselves use CCD for point & shoot.

Also, the frame rate, like 10fps at 8MP or 30fps at 2MP isn't a
feature of the sensor. It's the processor and the memory that
determines the max frame rate. It doesn't make sense to me at
swithing to CMOS raises up the frame rate.

Actually CMOS has been outperforming CCDs for a while now. This is why Sony is switching over to CMOS (they are building a $1B plant for CMOS image sensors) and why you now see CMOS in almost all high end Sony products.

It is also very difficult to clock CCDs at much more than 50 MHz per channel (2 channels per chip, usually). This limits CCD output rate to about 100Mpixels/sec. In practice, 30 MHz is about the limit for CCDs.

CMOS image sensors typically get clocked out at about the same rate per bit, but having multiple taps is easy with on chip ADC. CMOS sensors going up to 1Gpixel per second have been made for some time.

Just wanted to straighten you out.

-Eric

 Eric Fossum's gear list:Eric Fossum's gear list
Sony RX100 II Nikon Coolpix P1000 +1 more
Barry Fitzgerald Forum Pro • Posts: 29,888
Re: CMOS is winning over CCD now?

Eric Fossum wrote:

dylanbarnhart wrote:

The article briefly mentioned that micron has found a way to make
CMOS better than CCD. I wonder what kind of new technology that
is. Even though Canon has a superior CMOS technology, it only
works for larger sensors like those in DSLR cameras. Canon
themselves use CCD for point & shoot.

Also, the frame rate, like 10fps at 8MP or 30fps at 2MP isn't a
feature of the sensor. It's the processor and the memory that
determines the max frame rate. It doesn't make sense to me at
swithing to CMOS raises up the frame rate.

Actually CMOS has been outperforming CCDs for a while now. This is
why Sony is switching over to CMOS (they are building a $1B plant
for CMOS image sensors) and why you now see CMOS in almost all high
end Sony products.

It is also very difficult to clock CCDs at much more than 50 MHz
per channel (2 channels per chip, usually). This limits CCD output
rate to about 100Mpixels/sec. In practice, 30 MHz is about the
limit for CCDs.

CMOS image sensors typically get clocked out at about the same rate
per bit, but having multiple taps is easy with on chip ADC. CMOS
sensors going up to 1Gpixel per second have been made for some time.

Just wanted to straighten you out.

-Eric

You cannot quantify performance on clock rates...this is not a cpu.

There are pros and cons for both...cmos has lower power consumption, but higher noise..that is before modification. CCD has the opposite..

Ron Parr Forum Pro • Posts: 13,785
Re: CMOS is winning over CCD now?

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:

You cannot quantify performance on clock rates...this is not a cpu.

He was addressing the question of whether the high speed of the new micron device was related to its CMOS design.

There are pros and cons for both...cmos has lower power
consumption, but higher noise..that is before modification. CCD has
the opposite..

I think he knows the pros and cons:

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/wrapper.jsp?arnumber=628824

-- hide signature --
Eric Fossum
Eric Fossum Senior Member • Posts: 1,508
Re: CMOS is winning over CCD now?

Barry Fitzgerald wrote:
You cannot quantify performance on clock rates...this is not a cpu.

There are pros and cons for both...cmos has lower power
consumption, but higher noise..that is before modification. CCD has
the opposite..

Yeah, what Ron said. (thanks Ron!). OF COURSE readout rate is a performance specification. Would you buy a camera that took 10 min to write to memory due to slow readout rate? When I invented the modern CMOS image sensor at JPL, high performance CCDs were being clocked out at 50 kpixels/sec. So, a 1 Megapixel CCD sensor, like that that went to Saturn recently, requires 20 sec for readout. Also, its noise floor is not much less than any current CMOS image sensor for DSLR application.

Modern CCD readout noise is equal to or worse than modern CMOS active pixel image sensors. This idea that CMOS is inferior dates to the mid 1990's. It is just not true any more. Sensitivity, noise, full well, and in fact every important metric is now resolved in favor of CMOS. Ergo, Sony investing $1B in a CMOS image sensor plant.

Now, not all CMOS is equal. Micron, Sony, ST, and Samsung make high performance CMOS image sensors. Omnivision, Magnachip, Kodak (IBM), Cypress, Foveon and others are currently 2nd tier in performance. Obviously Canon is making good CMOS image sensors but at a much higher price and a much lower level of sophistication. Pixel sizes less than 3 um are much harder to make work well than larger pixels so I don't count Canon in the top tier.

kind regards,
Eric

 Eric Fossum's gear list:Eric Fossum's gear list
Sony RX100 II Nikon Coolpix P1000 +1 more
jeffkrol Veteran Member • Posts: 6,225
Something completely different

In your opinion then, if lauched today what imaging chip would be the primary RGB imager? And why? Granted space travel may color the answer a bit if there is a major difference in stability ect in such a hostile enviroment but I think it's a valid question and one out of curiosity more than a CMOS/CCD debate.
--
360 minutes from the prime meridian. (-5375min, 3.55sec) 1093' above sea level.

Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads