D70s vs F11 Mark II

Started Mar 30, 2006 | Discussions
Kim Letkeman
Kim Letkeman Forum Pro • Posts: 33,444
D70s vs F11 Mark II

As many variables controlled as possible. Both shot on tripods at about 105mm. F5 for the F11, F5.6 for the D70s. RAW processing cut back to just exposure. Standard color for the F11. No noise reduction during RAW processing. Retains better detail that way, but has lots of funny looking color noise. A good Neat image test.

100% crops at 200 then 1600 ISO. F11 on the left.

My opinion -- both look great ... the D70s seems to retain a bit more detail.

200 ISO processed shots, F11 first.

1600 ISO processed shots, F11 first.

My opinion -- wow ... they both clean up beautifully.

Pre-answering a few questions:

1) Why is the background blurry on the D70s shots?

I thought that f5.6 would be enough to put more in focus, but the bokeh is strong on a large sensor. I wanted to shoot at f11 ... but there is no way to set a long shutter speed and a high aperture at the same time on the F11. That is the first time a felt a real limitation.

2) Why is there more contrast on the F11 shots?

They come that way from the cam. I put a miniscule s-curve and ran local contrast in order to cut the haze (crappy lighting.) Same processing on both pretty much. RAW conversio is very flexible for the D70s.

3) The F11 looks better at 100%, especially at 1600 ISO.

I agree. But that shows how useless measurebation really is. Pixel peeping tells us very little about what the final image can be. I could change the RAW processing to make the image from the cam look very much like the F11 shot, but I prefer to do the noise reduction in Neat Image. It's just a phase I am going through as I learn more about RAW.

-- hide signature --

My gallery: http://letkeman.net/Photos
Fuji Finepix F11
Nikon D70s, Sigma 18-200, Nikkor 50mm 1.8D

 Kim Letkeman's gear list:Kim Letkeman's gear list
Nikon Coolpix 990 Fujifilm FinePix F770EXR Nikon D600 Nikon D7200 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G7 +27 more
H Smith
H Smith Senior Member • Posts: 1,404
Re: D70s vs F11 Mark II

Since when do F 11s have RAW capability!!!!???
Henry F. Smith
Http: www.glensummitimages.com

 H Smith's gear list:H Smith's gear list
Fujifilm X-Pro1 Fujifilm X-E1 Fujifilm XF 23mm F1.4 R
Audiophiling Contributing Member • Posts: 673
Re: D70s vs F11 Mark II

How's the Sigma 18-200 working out for ya? It seems like a good all-in-one lens.

-- hide signature --

'I never saw an ugly thing in my life: for let the form of an object be what it may - light, shade, and perspective will always make it beautiful.' - John Constable

Grafight Contributing Member • Posts: 514
I have D70s and s9000/9500

The one true advantage of the DSLR lies in shooting speed. I keep both cameras in my bag and when I have time I do a shoot with both cameras alternating, so I have a back-up. There are times when I have prefered the output of the s9000. If I go to a fast-moving event like a sports game or a race, I don't bother with the fuji, but for everything else I shoo with both. Sometimes the Nikon wins, but sometimes it doesn't. And same settings yield differen results in both cameras (btw, I have the kit 18-70 DX lens)
Thanks for posting your tests.

-- hide signature --

Graf
----
Enjoying my s9000 and Nikon D70s

Kim Letkeman
OP Kim Letkeman Forum Pro • Posts: 33,444
I refer to RAW only in the context of the D70s

H Smith wrote:

Since when do F 11s have RAW capability!!!!???
Henry F. Smith
Http: www.glensummitimages.com

-- hide signature --

My gallery: http://letkeman.net/Photos
Fuji Finepix F11
Nikon D70s, Sigma 18-200, Nikkor 50mm 1.8D

 Kim Letkeman's gear list:Kim Letkeman's gear list
Nikon Coolpix 990 Fujifilm FinePix F770EXR Nikon D600 Nikon D7200 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G7 +27 more
Kim Letkeman
OP Kim Letkeman Forum Pro • Posts: 33,444
Very happy with it ...

Seems sharp ...
--
My gallery: http://letkeman.net/Photos
Fuji Finepix F11
Nikon D70s, Sigma 18-200, Nikkor 50mm 1.8D

 Kim Letkeman's gear list:Kim Letkeman's gear list
Nikon Coolpix 990 Fujifilm FinePix F770EXR Nikon D600 Nikon D7200 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G7 +27 more
Kim Letkeman
OP Kim Letkeman Forum Pro • Posts: 33,444
hmmm ...

Since the D70s has a superb meter and lense and a large sensor, I find it hard to believe that the S9000 sometimes wins in image quality.

You'll have to define what you mean by "better."

I thought there would be cases where the F11 was better than the Nikon, but after a couple of rounds of testing, I can see I was hallucinating.

-- hide signature --

My gallery: http://letkeman.net/Photos
Fuji Finepix F11
Nikon D70s, Sigma 18-200, Nikkor 50mm 1.8D

 Kim Letkeman's gear list:Kim Letkeman's gear list
Nikon Coolpix 990 Fujifilm FinePix F770EXR Nikon D600 Nikon D7200 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G7 +27 more
jtbng Regular Member • Posts: 330
D70s

I missed all the excitement, when did you get the D70s? What is your consideration when you get it and how did you arrived at your decision. I asked because I do admire your work and I have been planning to buy a DSLR to accompany my F10 for the shots that I struggle to get with my F10.
----------------------------------------------------------
3700+ images with my F10 and counting..

YY Contributing Member • Posts: 766
Re: D70s

Besides shooting speed, I prefer the Shallow DOF of the DSLR. It makes the shot more three dimensional. To my eye, I would've added a little more contrast with the D70s shot.

I also love the shallow DOF for portraits. It makes the viewer focus on the subject rather than something distracting in the background.

Kim, the stuff you do with Neat Image is amazing.

One other thing that I noticed with a DSLR is that with my prime lenses, I get much cleaner ISO1600 shots than I do with my zoom lenses.

BTW, I use a 350D and am considering the F30 when it comes out. I was a former s602 user.

Poochdp Senior Member • Posts: 2,667
Re: D70s vs F11 Mark II

I think this test speaks very highly of the F11. It will never replace a DSLR, in addtion to what others mentioned, the DR is so much better on the D70, if you look at the shadows under the handle and every shadow in the F11 shot, the D70 opens them up, not to mention that D70 had to be throttled back to work within the limited parameters of the F11.

I think you should have compared just jpg images to be fair!

The test also confirms the extreme usefulness of neat iimage.

I thought the D70 would do better then it did at 1600 ISO, that is something I am going to have to compare against the 20D canon.

Thanks for taking the time to do these tests, your inquiring mind is so helpfull to a lot of us!
--
Gallery; http://www.pbase.com/poochdp

Kim Letkeman
OP Kim Letkeman Forum Pro • Posts: 33,444
Re: D70s

jtbng wrote:

I missed all the excitement, when did you get the D70s? What is
your consideration when you get it and how did you arrived at your
decision. I asked because I do admire your work and I have been
planning to buy a DSLR to accompany my F10 for the shots that I
struggle to get with my F10.

I've been pining for a more powerful tool for a few months now. Not because I am dissatisfied with the F11 (far from it, actually), but because there is another level of image quality that the F11 can not quite achieve.

Looking at the samples and galleries forums and at the dSLR forums, this becomes pretty obvious. The kit lenses are no screaming h*ll ... but the primes are cheap and amazing (f1.8 and pretty darned sharp even wide open) and the mega-zooms are not half bad nowadays (I use the Sigma 18-200.) So you can get amazing reach and sharpness in one package. This test used the mega-zoom, not the prime by the way.

Thanks for the comments on my work ... I do these tests to remind myself (and anyone who reads these), that P&S cameras like the F11 can capture incredible images too ... the tool is still always less important than the eye behind it. But the D70s is one seriously fun toy

-- hide signature --

My gallery: http://letkeman.net/Photos
Fuji Finepix F11
Nikon D70s, Sigma 18-200, Nikkor 50mm 1.8D

 Kim Letkeman's gear list:Kim Letkeman's gear list
Nikon Coolpix 990 Fujifilm FinePix F770EXR Nikon D600 Nikon D7200 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G7 +27 more
Kim Letkeman
OP Kim Letkeman Forum Pro • Posts: 33,444
Still learning the best RAW workflow ...

YY wrote:

Besides shooting speed, I prefer the Shallow DOF of the DSLR. It
makes the shot more three dimensional. To my eye, I would've added
a little more contrast with the D70s shot.

Yeah ... I struggle with that all the time. I love contrast, and yet the dSLR does not need as much to achieve the drama. So I try not to overdo it. A learning process for sure.

I also love the shallow DOF for portraits. It makes the viewer
focus on the subject rather than something distracting in the
background.

In fact, it can be a chore to get the whole subject in focus ... sometimes have to shoot at f11 to do that. No so with the F11, which has a real advantage for that type of shooting.

Kim, the stuff you do with Neat Image is amazing.

Thanks ... I built a set of profiles that I no longer want to use for the D70s ... gotta experiment some more :-).

One other thing that I noticed with a DSLR is that with my prime
lenses, I get much cleaner ISO1600 shots than I do with my zoom
lenses.

The primes sure do an amazing job. I'm very happy with the Sigma 18-200, but I do notice the openness is not quite there compared with the 50.

BTW, I use a 350D and am considering the F30 when it comes out. I
was a former s602 user.

Yeah ... that little cam tempts me too. 3200 ISO would be wicked for a party cam. And if it retains the basic image quality and incredible sharpness (and I would bet that it will) .... well, it's a no brainer. Of course, I'm so happy with the F11 that I might spend the F30 cash on a new processor, some memory or a lense

-- hide signature --

My gallery: http://letkeman.net/Photos
Fuji Finepix F11
Nikon D70s, Sigma 18-200, Nikkor 50mm 1.8D

 Kim Letkeman's gear list:Kim Letkeman's gear list
Nikon Coolpix 990 Fujifilm FinePix F770EXR Nikon D600 Nikon D7200 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G7 +27 more
Kim Letkeman
OP Kim Letkeman Forum Pro • Posts: 33,444
Thanks Pooch ...

I totally agree. Love the F11 ... and nothing I've done in my tests exposes any weaknesses we didn't already know about. It's image quality is still top of the P&S class and after processing it can pass for a much more expensive camera in purely technical terms.

The fact that we can carry it everywhere makes it more versatile than any long zoom or dSLR and that's what I really like about it. For example, Hugo's amazing blog would not be possible without cameras like the F10 and F11 ...

-- hide signature --

My gallery: http://letkeman.net/Photos
Fuji Finepix F11
Nikon D70s, Sigma 18-200, Nikkor 50mm 1.8D

 Kim Letkeman's gear list:Kim Letkeman's gear list
Nikon Coolpix 990 Fujifilm FinePix F770EXR Nikon D600 Nikon D7200 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G7 +27 more
YY Contributing Member • Posts: 766
Re: Still learning the best RAW workflow ...

Kim, I love the 50mm 1.8 but I just got myself a 85mm 1.8 and love it even more.

I always thought that Zooms were my thing but since getting the 85mm, sneaker zoom is A OK.

As for DOF, get a calculator then remember the most common shots that you do for the prime. e.g. for me, I ususally shoot the following : subject 10m away, F1.8 for 50cm, F2.8 for a DOF of 80cm and for 5m away f8 for dof of 60cm

I apologize to everyone else if this is a little off topic but it does have some relevance in how images appear different due to the difference in sensor sizes and comparison of a DSLR to the F11.

As for the F30, I am eagerly awaiting the 1st reports/review. And besides the ISO 3200, I like the higher resolution LCD screen.

jtbng Regular Member • Posts: 330
Re: D70s

Thats what I am thinking as well. I am looking forward to your images from the D70s (in the Nikon forum perhaps).

Kim Letkeman wrote:

jtbng wrote:

I missed all the excitement, when did you get the D70s? What is
your consideration when you get it and how did you arrived at your
decision. I asked because I do admire your work and I have been
planning to buy a DSLR to accompany my F10 for the shots that I
struggle to get with my F10.

I've been pining for a more powerful tool for a few months now. Not
because I am dissatisfied with the F11 (far from it, actually), but
because there is another level of image quality that the F11 can
not quite achieve.

Looking at the samples and galleries forums and at the dSLR forums,
this becomes pretty obvious. The kit lenses are no screaming h*ll
... but the primes are cheap and amazing (f1.8 and pretty darned
sharp even wide open) and the mega-zooms are not half bad nowadays
(I use the Sigma 18-200.) So you can get amazing reach and
sharpness in one package. This test used the mega-zoom, not the
prime by the way.

Thanks for the comments on my work ... I do these tests to remind
myself (and anyone who reads these), that P&S cameras like the F11
can capture incredible images too ... the tool is still always less
important than the eye behind it. But the D70s is one seriously fun
toy

-- hide signature --

3700+ images with my F10 and counting..

jimr Forum Pro • Posts: 11,405
Re: D70s vs D50 Noise

Interestingly the Nikon D50 has lower noise than the D70s. The D50 is available at excellent prices today...a superb value!
From dpreview's D50 test;

"We were probably the most surprised by the D50's noise levels, Nikon has clearly spent time since the creation of the D70 on design changes to keep noise down. The D50 has the lowest noise levels of any of the affordable digital SLR's we've tested (although they're all fairly clean, we're talking fractions here)."
"Low noise even at high sensitivities, better than competitors."

Kim Letkeman
OP Kim Letkeman Forum Pro • Posts: 33,444
yup ...

jimr wrote:

Interestingly the Nikon D50 has lower noise than the D70s. The D50
is available at excellent prices today...a superb value!
From dpreview's D50 test;
"We were probably the most surprised by the D50's noise levels,
Nikon has clearly spent time since the creation of the D70 on
design changes to keep noise down. The D50 has the lowest noise
levels of any of the affordable digital SLR's we've tested
(although they're all fairly clean, we're talking fractions here)."
"Low noise even at high sensitivities, better than competitors."

And many buy the D70s anyway because the difference is small fractions. What you see in this test is greatly exaggerated by my experimental RAW work flow. And the result after processing is as clean as a whistle anyway. Also, the advantage is only in the jpeg processing from what I have heard.

In fact, I love shooting in available light (as witnessed by the myriad 1600 ISO shots in my gallery) ... so I was quite certain that I would end up buying the 20D, Rebel XT or the D50.

But I spent an hour playing with them all and the D70s is the one for me ... the feel was just amazing. I looked at enough photos shot with it to conclude that the noise issue was irrelevant, especially if you do any post-processing, but even without the photos look fine when printed or down-sized.

The 20D came close, but does not quite feel right to me, and it is still too expensive. The Rebel XT felt terrible to me ... the bottom two fingers have no support at all.

The D50 is a superb camera ... the images truly are amazing from it. Ken Rockwell feels that the D50 is more than enough camera for anyone and his only reason for staying with the D70s is one or two minor features (e.g. back-lit top LCD, visible grid in viewfinder.) No one could go wrong with any of these 4 cams, but one should always go to the camera store and spend time with each. It is amazing how different each feels from the others.

-- hide signature --

My gallery: http://letkeman.net/Photos
Fuji Finepix F11
Nikon D70s, Sigma 18-200, Nikkor 50mm 1.8D

 Kim Letkeman's gear list:Kim Letkeman's gear list
Nikon Coolpix 990 Fujifilm FinePix F770EXR Nikon D600 Nikon D7200 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G7 +27 more
Grafight Contributing Member • Posts: 514
Re: hmmm ...

I know the D70s is superior in pretty much every aspect, but there are so many variables to every shot, that sometimes I liked the final "look" of a shot better. Sometimes It had to do with color, sometimes with compositon if I had moved a bit. It's mostly subjective stuff. Also I've made mistakes in settings with one camera and not the other (it's happened both ways), so it has to do with the operator, not the camera sometimes.

For example in changing conditions Iv'e forgotten to change white balance on the D70s and gotten a nasty color cast not noticeable on the LCD, and later on the computer realized my mistake. But I rarely make the same mistake in both cameras. The fuji's white balance was set to auto and its pictures were wonderful. I'm still learning...

-- hide signature --

Graf
----
Enjoying my s9000 and Nikon D70s

Grafight Contributing Member • Posts: 514
Ken Rockwell and the D70s

I have been reading Rockwell's website and found it fascinating and replete with great information. I have just recently started to shoot with the D70s and I'm far from reaching what the camera is capable of.

I agree with you that the D70 is an incredible camera. It just "feels right". I got into journalism through Graphic Design. Now I work for a weekly paper with a very small staff (although a subset of a daily larger newspaper). Our small team requested a camera and I got nominated as the photographer. They asked me: What camera do you want? With the budget available I chose the D70s.

Even though it technically it belongs to the paper, nobody else uses it, and I take it home with me every night, and I'm free to use it as I please.

Prior to that I had bought the s9000, so now that I carry both cameras all the time, I try to learn both and shoot with both of them.

They open doors for me. When I arrive at an even with the big bag on my shoulder, reach in, pull both cameras and hang them around my neck, people assume I mean business. They believe me when I say I'm a reporter and don't ask for a press pass. My fellow reporter has a Rebel (personal camera), and it doesn't have that effect on people at all, just like Ken says in one of her articles, when you show up with a Rebel, people asks you if you've seen the photographer. With a D70, they assume it's you.

-- hide signature --

Graf
----
Enjoying my s9000 and Nikon D70s

Kim Letkeman
OP Kim Letkeman Forum Pro • Posts: 33,444
:-) .... hadn't heard that one ...

... but that's my impression too. Of course, the Rebels take amazing photos so what the heck. It's all about what feels right to the buyer.

-- hide signature --

My gallery: http://letkeman.net/Photos
Fuji Finepix F11
Nikon D70s, Sigma 18-200, Nikkor 50mm 1.8D

 Kim Letkeman's gear list:Kim Letkeman's gear list
Nikon Coolpix 990 Fujifilm FinePix F770EXR Nikon D600 Nikon D7200 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G7 +27 more
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads