D200 vs D70 Dynamic Range graph

Started Jan 30, 2006 | Discussions
OP davexl Senior Member • Posts: 1,058
Re: D70 firmware v2.0?

Good point. This was D70 circa March 2004.

I have updated the firmware, but this was shot before that.

I might check it out again, if I get time, but picking up the D70 seems like playing with Lego after using the D200

Michael McCarthy wrote:

How does your graph for the D70 compare with the latest firmware
v2.0 for the D70? I noticed a midtone improvement when I loaded the
new firmware last May 2004. Does your D70 graph use the latest D70
firmware?

-- hide signature --

Regards,

David F.
Melbourne, Australia.
http://www.pbase.com/davexl/folio

 davexl's gear list:davexl's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 85mm f/1.4G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G +3 more
Bill Janes Senior Member • Posts: 1,848
Re: Nice work, but...

davexl wrote:

Bill Janes wrote:

it does not take into account the rendering of high contrast scenes
by the in camera or NEF converter software. In the process of
rendering the image, the camera applies a gamma correction and a
tone curve as we all know.

I should have said - this is with tone compensation set to normal,
not Automatic or adaptive (I forget what Nikon calls it) - so
nothing will change in processing. The gamma/tone curve is static.

It can also remap out of gamut colors into the shooting space
(aRGB, etc) and apply highlight and shadow compression so that a
high contrast scene can be displayed or printed. When one
photographs a gray card (low contrast) at various exposures, the
full effect of the rendering process is not tested.

With tone set to normal - what exactly would change?

AFAIK this is a perfectly valid rough test of DR. It certainly
gives you enough to visualise a scene in the zone system, spot
meter, and get bang on perfect results.

Dave,

Yes, your test does give a perfectly valid test of DR, but in a photograph with a full dynamic range of exposure values, the tone curve changes. For example look at Norman Koren's examples with dynamic ranges of 6.31 and 8.58 f/stops. With the latter exposure the log pixel level curve is no longer linear whereas it is in the former.

I do not know how the D70 or D200 rendering would handle this situation or how Adobe Camera Raw would render the high contrast image. I do plan to order the Stouffer T4110 step wedge and do some tests.

http://www.imatest.com/docs/tour_q13.html

In your zone system analogy, the camera uses a different development for high and low contrast scenes.

-- hide signature --

Bill Janes

Guy Swarbrick
Guy Swarbrick Veteran Member • Posts: 4,448
Converting 8 bit values to 12 bit...

Bill Janes wrote:

One can then take the 0..255 values and convert to 0..4095
by dividing the 0..255 value by 256 and then multiplying by 4096.
To evaluate a greater dynamic range one could use a transmissive
stepwedge or use Dave's method of multiple exposures.

One can, but why would one? All you'll get is 256 discrete values spread out over a 4096 value number space. You still won't know if a value of 2048 on one camera is 2040 or 2056 or anything in between...

-- hide signature --

Guy

If you're really bored, you could visit my photo blog http://swarbrick.blogs.com
My 'work' photos are at http://www.swarbrick.com
The 'fun' stuff is at http://www.flickr.com/photos/swarbrick

 Guy Swarbrick's gear list:Guy Swarbrick's gear list
Nikon Coolpix P6000 Fujifilm X100S Nikon D4 Fujifilm X-Pro1 Fujifilm X-T1 +33 more
Steve Bingham
Steve Bingham Forum Pro • Posts: 26,329
Here are some OLD Fuji S2 charts

Scroll half way down the page to get to the charts. They show raw producing another 2 to 3 stops depending on your noise level floor. Jpg seems to max at 7.7. (these charts are three years old when a lot of this understanding was pretty new).

It would be nice to see comparative shots of jpg verses raw files. I suspect the raw files would approach 10.5 stops.

Thanks for the most interesting test.
--
Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com

 Steve Bingham's gear list:Steve Bingham's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D7200 Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-140mm F3.5-5.6G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 16-80mm F2.8-4E ED VR +20 more
Steve Bingham
Steve Bingham Forum Pro • Posts: 26,329
Whoops. Here you go.
 Steve Bingham's gear list:Steve Bingham's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D7200 Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-140mm F3.5-5.6G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 16-80mm F2.8-4E ED VR +20 more
Bill Janes Senior Member • Posts: 1,848
Re: Converting 8 bit values to 12 bit...

Guy Swarbrick wrote:

Bill Janes wrote:

One can then take the 0..255 values and convert to 0..4095
by dividing the 0..255 value by 256 and then multiplying by 4096.
To evaluate a greater dynamic range one could use a transmissive
stepwedge or use Dave's method of multiple exposures.

One can, but why would one? All you'll get is 256 discrete values
spread out over a 4096 value number space. You still won't know if
a value of 2048 on one camera is 2040 or 2056 or anything in
between...

Guy,

I had to convert to 8 bit to convert to jpg and upload to Smugmug. The original image was in 16 bit linear, but Photoshop only uses 15 bits--still enough for the 12 bit output of the camera.

-- hide signature --

Bill Janes

Julia Borg Veteran Member • Posts: 7,280
Processing Dynamic Range graphs

David, that in no way characterizes cameras. What you presented is dynamic range of your preferred processing of the images.

-- hide signature --

Julia

Asaf Tzadok Regular Member • Posts: 134
Re: Can you supply the raw value (0-4095) ?

I will be more than happy to do that. I only need the NEF samples.

davexl wrote:

Righto - thanks for that, I had a feeling it was going to get a
little esoteric.

I don't mind making 100MB of raw files available to folks who are
more gung ho about this that I am, but I am afraid my testing is
pretty basic and limited to what will be of practical use to me
shooting.
--
Regards,

David F.
Melbourne, Australia.
http://www.pbase.com/davexl/folio

 Asaf Tzadok's gear list:Asaf Tzadok's gear list
Panasonic LX100 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH1 Nikon D600 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D ED-IF +6 more
Steve Bingham
Steve Bingham Forum Pro • Posts: 26,329
I am tempted to spring for . . .

I am about to purchase the Imatest and a Stauffer 4110 step chart just to find our for myself. I don't know why someone has not done this already. Hello out there???? Save me some bucks!

 Steve Bingham's gear list:Steve Bingham's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D7200 Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-140mm F3.5-5.6G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 16-80mm F2.8-4E ED VR +20 more
Bill Janes Senior Member • Posts: 1,848
Re: Have ordered the Stouffer..

4110 chart today and already have Imitest. I will publish the Stepchart analysis for ACR 3.3 and Nikon Capture conversions as well as the DCRaw linear conversion.

Julia, do you have any advice on what switches to use with DCRaw for this purpose?
--
Bill Janes

Steve Bingham
Steve Bingham Forum Pro • Posts: 26,329
Thanks, Bill.

I am sure your expertise will provide valid results for all to enjoy. It is these sort of posts that keep me loving dpreview!

Steve Bingham
http://www.dustylens.com

 Steve Bingham's gear list:Steve Bingham's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon D7200 Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-140mm F3.5-5.6G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 16-80mm F2.8-4E ED VR +20 more
Julia Borg Veteran Member • Posts: 7,280
Re: Have ordered the Stouffer..

Bill, I would use "-h" mode with "-m -n -3", and cheat substituting R and B channels with green channel in Photoshop before sending the file to Imatest.
--
Julia

Bill Janes Senior Member • Posts: 1,848
Re: Have ordered the Stouffer..

Julia,

Thanks for your advice, which I will follow.
--
Bill Janes

OP davexl Senior Member • Posts: 1,058
Re: Processing Dynamic Range graphs

Julia Borg wrote:

David, that in no way characterizes cameras. What you presented is
dynamic range of your preferred processing of the images.

Hi Julia,

I should have said "D200 system". (camera + NC4.4)

I know what you are saying, but my rough and ready test does indeed characterise the D200 with Normal Curve as processed by Nikon Capture.

It does not isolate what the sensor is capable of, nor what magic tricks can be done in (other) RAW converters. But it does quantify what the manufacturer deems is the optimum for their product. That is an excellent starting point for knowing your camera.

As my photography lecturer always used to say - learn the rules so you can break them.

I agree that this is a very thin slice of data, but it is the most relevant one.

-- hide signature --

Regards,

David F.
Melbourne, Australia.
http://www.pbase.com/davexl/folio

 davexl's gear list:davexl's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 85mm f/1.4G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G +3 more
Julia Borg Veteran Member • Posts: 7,280
Re: Processing Dynamic Range graphs

Hi David,

I should have said "D200 system". (camera + NC4.4)

if you try to get that data with a different camera, but using same NC 4.4 how will it differ?

-- hide signature --

Julia

OP davexl Senior Member • Posts: 1,058
Can you clarify?

Thanks for fleshing that out Bill, but to clarify:

Bill Janes wrote:

Yes, your test does give a perfectly valid test of DR, but in a
photograph with a full dynamic range of exposure values, the tone
curve changes.

and also:

In your zone system analogy, the camera uses a different
development for high and low contrast scenes.

Ok, these statements are what I need you to back up with proof - I contend that the D200 at Normal tone curve, fixed WB does not do anything of the sort.

-- hide signature --

Regards,

David F.
Melbourne, Australia.
http://www.pbase.com/davexl/folio

 davexl's gear list:davexl's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 85mm f/1.4G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G +3 more
OP davexl Senior Member • Posts: 1,058
Re: Processing Dynamic Range graphs

Not quite sure what you are asking me Julia...

As far as I know Capture renders the files depending on what camera they came from - apply D70 settings to a D70 NEF, D200 to D200 NEFs etc...

Julia Borg wrote:
Hi David,

I should have said "D200 system". (camera + NC4.4)

if you try to get that data with a different camera, but using same
NC 4.4 how will it differ?

-- hide signature --

Regards,

David F.
Melbourne, Australia.
http://www.pbase.com/davexl/folio

 davexl's gear list:davexl's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 85mm f/1.4G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G +3 more
RudivanS Veteran Member • Posts: 4,467
Re: D200 vs D70 Dynamic Range graph

davexl wrote:

Here is my dynamic range test of the D200.

It turns out the D200 has pretty much the same total dynamic range
as the D70, but has a very much lighter midtone and shadow curve -
making more use of shadow detail. The midtone on the D200 is almost
exactly mid-grey. This shows why the +0.3 EV custom curves often
used with the D100/D70 are not needed with the D200.

This is also why you have to learn to expose differently with the
D200 - it does shoot lighter.

Daylight (sunlight), 50mm lens focus infinity WB Pre - Aperture
priority mode.

Forgive my charting skills - my D70 data was done a few years ago
in 1/2 stops and my D200 was done in 1/3 stops - here are the
originals:
--
Regards,

David F.
Melbourne, Australia.
http://www.pbase.com/davexl/folio

G'day Dave, would really like to see a similar comparison between the D2x and D200.
D2x's don't grow on trees I guess.
Cheers,
Rudi in Sydney

 RudivanS's gear list:RudivanS's gear list
Nikon D4 Nikon D800E Nikon D810 Canon Pixma Pro-10
OP davexl Senior Member • Posts: 1,058
Re: D200 vs D70 Dynamic Range graph

RudivanS wrote:

G'day Dave, would really like to see a similar comparison between
the D2x and D200.
D2x's don't grow on trees I guess.

I would love to do one for you mate, but you got it in one - they don't grow on trees.

More than willing to accept one should the forum members decide to do a whip around.... I would do that for the team, I would. Really.

-- hide signature --

Regards,

David F.
Melbourne, Australia.
http://www.pbase.com/davexl/folio

 davexl's gear list:davexl's gear list
Nikon D810 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 14-24mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Nikkor 85mm f/1.4G Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G +3 more
Julia Borg Veteran Member • Posts: 7,280
Re: Processing Dynamic Range graphs

davexl wrote:

Not quite sure what you are asking me Julia...

As far as I know Capture renders the files depending on what camera
they came from - apply D70 settings to a D70 NEF, D200 to D200 NEFs
etc...

Each version of NC treats files differently - is that a possibility?

-- hide signature --

Julia

Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads