How is D200 blue channel noise in tungsten shots?

Started Dec 25, 2005 | Discussions
Carlo Chiopris Regular Member • Posts: 217
How is D200 blue channel noise in tungsten shots?

While patiently waiting for my D200 to arrive, I'd like to know of its behavior in tungsten light.

When using my D70 in tungsten light I often see a lot of noise in the blue channel, due to boosting up that channel when WB'ing. At the same time, the red channel is almost burned. I was even considering using a light blue filter...

Carlo

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DRG Veteran Member • Posts: 5,217
Re: How is D200 blue channel noise in tungsten shots?

Carlo Chiopris wrote:

While patiently waiting for my D200 to arrive, I'd like to know of
its behavior in tungsten light.

When using my D70 in tungsten light I often see a lot of noise in
the blue channel, due to boosting up that channel when WB'ing. At
the same time, the red channel is almost burned. I was even
considering using a light blue filter...

Carlo

There is always a noise and dynamic range advantage to color balancing the light entering the camera to yield equal response on all 3 color channels. If you can tolerate the loss of light, using a tungsten filter isn't a bad idea.

David

DRG Veteran Member • Posts: 5,217
Re: How is D200 blue channel noise in tungsten shots?

DRG wrote:

There is always a noise and dynamic range advantage to color
balancing the light entering the camera to yield equal response on
all 3 color channels. If you can tolerate the loss of light, using
a tungsten filter isn't a bad idea.

Note that for this to work and provide advantage, you need to be able to tolerate compensating for the light loss by bringing in more light (wider aperture or slower shutter speed), not by increasing ISO.

David

MOD TOF guy Forum Pro • Posts: 16,079
Re: How is D200 blue channel noise in tungsten shots?

The D200 allows to store 5 pre-WB settings, instead of 1 for the D70. I intend to load one of the memory settings with a set having all coefficients set to 1. This should help diagnose the problem, and help in the choice of the proper filter.
--
Thierry

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OP Carlo Chiopris Regular Member • Posts: 217
Re: How is D200 blue channel noise in tungsten shots?

DRG wrote:

Note that for this to work and provide advantage, you need to be
able to tolerate compensating for the light loss by bringing in
more light (wider aperture or slower shutter speed), not by
increasing ISO.

Thank you for confirming that. I had cases where red was overblown and blue over-amplified and noisy. The choice is between available light and color-balance.
I am gonna try with a filter, a light one.

Carlo

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OP Carlo Chiopris Regular Member • Posts: 217
Re: How is D200 blue channel noise in tungsten shots?

TOF guy wrote:

The D200 allows to store 5 pre-WB settings, instead of 1 for the
D70. I intend to load one of the memory settings with a set having
all coefficients set to 1. This should help diagnose the problem,
and help in the choice of the proper filter.

What procedure are you envisaging?

Carlo

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MOD TOF guy Forum Pro • Posts: 16,079
Re: How is D200 blue channel noise in tungsten shots?

There are two ways:

  • change the WB coeff. in a D200 file to 1., copy it to a compactflash card, insert the card in the D200, and use the ability to load the WB settings from a file into one of the preset.

  • attach the camera to a computer USB port and load the WB into one of the preset using Nikon Capture 4.4.

-- hide signature --

Thierry

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Joseph S Wisniewski Forum Pro • Posts: 34,385
Still recommend the filter...

Carlo Chiopris wrote:

While patiently waiting for my D200 to arrive, I'd like to know of
its behavior in tungsten light.

When using my D70 in tungsten light I often see a lot of noise in
the blue channel, due to boosting up that channel when WB'ing. At
the same time, the red channel is almost burned. I was even
considering using a light blue filter...

It plays games with the analog gains, like D2D, but that still means you're pumping the blue channel up to a horribly high ISO relative to red.

I was playing with long exposure motion studies last week, and it definitely seems like the filter is in order.

Glass, not Cokin plastic! Go ahead, ask me why...

-- hide signature --

Detroit Reds Wings - Original Six Hockey with Motown Style!
Twenty three, nine, and three, we're back on track!
Ottawa is a fluke, the cup is coming home to Detroit!

Detroit Pistons - Twenty and Three!
Number 1 in the NBA!

Detroit Lions - Third from the bottom, and we will take it!
Four and ten, even when when we lose, we do it right.

(I remember the 'good old days' of the net, when any signature over four lines was considered 'rude')

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

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OP Carlo Chiopris Regular Member • Posts: 217
Re: Still recommend the filter...

Joseph S. Wisniewski wrote:

It plays games with the analog gains, like D2D, but that still
means you're pumping the blue channel up to a horribly high ISO
relative to red.

I was playing with long exposure motion studies last week, and it
definitely seems like the filter is in order.

Glass, not Cokin plastic! Go ahead, ask me why...

You're making me curiius, why?

BTW, amazing photos in your gallery.

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Joseph S Wisniewski Forum Pro • Posts: 34,385
Plastic filters "leak" IR....

Carlo Chiopris wrote:

Joseph S. Wisniewski wrote:

It plays games with the analog gains, like D2D, but that still
means you're pumping the blue channel up to a horribly high ISO
relative to red.

I was playing with long exposure motion studies last week, and it
definitely seems like the filter is in order.

Glass, not Cokin plastic! Go ahead, ask me why...

You're making me curiius, why?

I learned this the hard way. I was shooting some candlelight shots, and used the Cokin 80A. It didn't dawn on me that it was an organic dye filter. Most common organic dyes transmit a great deal of IR. I was using a D70 on that particular shot, and D70 is very sensitive to near IR. So, the upshot was the 80A was knocking fown some 4 stops of visible red light, but letting all the IR through.

The D70 red, green, and blue filters are much like the Cokin 80A, organic dyes that pass IR. The red and blue filters passed more of it than the green, so the IR contamination showed up as magenta. My black background also was basically organic, and it's black dyes passed the IR, which reflected off the paper fibers.

So I got skin with magenta blotches, magenta candles, and a magenta background. The end result was near impossible to fix in post processing.

BTW, amazing photos in your gallery.

Thank you. I try.

-- hide signature --

Detroit Reds Wings - Original Six Hockey with Motown Style!
Twenty three, nine, and three, we're back on track!
Ottawa is a fluke, the cup is coming home to Detroit!

Detroit Pistons - Twenty and Three!
Number 1 in the NBA!

Detroit Lions - Third from the bottom, and we will take it!
Four and ten, even when when we lose, we do it right.

(I remember the 'good old days' of the net, when any signature over four lines was considered 'rude')

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 Joseph S Wisniewski's gear list:Joseph S Wisniewski's gear list
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OP Carlo Chiopris Regular Member • Posts: 217
Re: Plastic filters "leak" IR....

Joseph S. Wisniewski wrote:

I learned this the hard way. I was shooting some candlelight shots,
and used the Cokin 80A. It didn't dawn on me that it was an organic
dye filter. Most common organic dyes transmit a great deal of IR. I
was using a D70 on that particular shot, and D70 is very sensitive
to near IR. So, the upshot was the 80A was knocking fown some 4
stops of visible red light, but letting all the IR through.

Didn't think about that... What are you using now for candlelight and tungsten? Thanx.

Carlo

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MOD TOF guy Forum Pro • Posts: 16,079
Re: Plastic filters "leak" IR....

The D200 has much improved IR filtration according to Nikon. The observations made with the D70 may be less relevant to a D200.

On the D70 I've used B+W486 nearly at all times to eliminate IR !
--
Thierry

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Joseph S Wisniewski Forum Pro • Posts: 34,385
Now I use glass filters...

Carlo Chiopris wrote:

Joseph S. Wisniewski wrote:

I learned this the hard way. I was shooting some candlelight shots,
and used the Cokin 80A. It didn't dawn on me that it was an organic
dye filter. Most common organic dyes transmit a great deal of IR. I
was using a D70 on that particular shot, and D70 is very sensitive
to near IR. So, the upshot was the 80A was knocking fown some 4
stops of visible red light, but letting all the IR through.

Didn't think about that... What are you using now for candlelight
and tungsten? Thanx.

B+W or Hoya glass filters. Both continue to roll down through the IR.

-- hide signature --

Detroit Reds Wings - Original Six Hockey with Motown Style!
Twenty three, nine, and three, we're back on track!
Ottawa is a fluke, the cup is coming home to Detroit!

Detroit Pistons - Twenty and Three!
Number 1 in the NBA!

Detroit Lions - Third from the bottom, and we will take it!
Four and ten, even when when we lose, we do it right.

(I remember the 'good old days' of the net, when any signature over four lines was considered 'rude')

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 Joseph S Wisniewski's gear list:Joseph S Wisniewski's gear list
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Joseph S Wisniewski Forum Pro • Posts: 34,385
Bloody pain, though...

Joseph S. Wisniewski wrote:

Carlo Chiopris wrote:

Joseph S. Wisniewski wrote:

I learned this the hard way. I was shooting some candlelight shots,
and used the Cokin 80A. It didn't dawn on me that it was an organic
dye filter. Most common organic dyes transmit a great deal of IR. I
was using a D70 on that particular shot, and D70 is very sensitive
to near IR. So, the upshot was the 80A was knocking fown some 4
stops of visible red light, but letting all the IR through.

Didn't think about that... What are you using now for candlelight
and tungsten? Thanx.

B+W or Hoya glass filters. Both continue to roll down through the IR.

The screw in filters make it harder to focus (either AF or MF). What I like about the Cokins is that you can slide them 3/4 of the way out, focus, compose, slide the filter in, and shoot.

Screw in filters mean dismount the lens hood, unscrew the filter, focus, compose, screw in the filter, mount the hood, etc.

-- hide signature --

Detroit Reds Wings - Original Six Hockey with Motown Style!
Twenty three, nine, and three, we're back on track!
Ottawa is a fluke, the cup is coming home to Detroit!

Detroit Pistons - Twenty and Three!
Number 1 in the NBA!

Detroit Lions - Third from the bottom, and we will take it!
Four and ten, even when when we lose, we do it right.

(I remember the 'good old days' of the net, when any signature over four lines was considered 'rude')

Ciao!

Joe

http://www.swissarmyfork.com

 Joseph S Wisniewski's gear list:Joseph S Wisniewski's gear list
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gonzalu
gonzalu Forum Pro • Posts: 10,420
There is no substitue for good technique...

and filtering is one of them.

I have said this over and over and no one listens You seem to get it.

Set to DAYLIGHT WB and filter the incoming light. Anything else is a crutch.

Now, don't get me wrong, it works GREAT. I use it all the time. But when it is pushed, it will break. Filtering was and still is the best way to get the right light temperature for the sensor or film.

Cheers
--
Manny
FCAS Member - http://manny.org/FCAS
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OP Carlo Chiopris Regular Member • Posts: 217
Re: There is no substitue for good technique...

gonzalu wrote:

Filtering was and still is the
best way to get the right light temperature for the sensor or film.

What is still unclear to me is the best trade off between losing stops and getting better noise. Is it worth losing one stop by a filter when shooting in tungsten available light? Is a one stop in blue channel noise worth the problems of a longer shutter speed. That still I don't know.

Carlo

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Bill Janes Senior Member • Posts: 1,976
Re: Here is why filtering may be best

gonzalu wrote:

and filtering is one of them.

I have said this over and over and no one listens You seem to
get it.

Set to DAYLIGHT WB and filter the incoming light. Anything else is
a crutch.

Now, don't get me wrong, it works GREAT. I use it all the time. But
when it is pushed, it will break. Filtering was and still is the
best way to get the right light temperature for the sensor or film.

Cheers
--
Manny
FCAS Member - http://manny.org/FCAS
http://www.pbase.com/gonzalu/

Last year I was shooting high school basketball under available light in poorly lit gyms at ISO 1600. Not enough light to use a filter and still get the expossure. Color temp was about 2000K for neutral white balance. With the D70 it is best to use +0.67 exposure compensation in this situation, but here is a shot where I used no compensation and experienced underexposure requiring +1.6 stops compensation in ACR:

There are yellow splotches on the face resulting from severe underexposure of the blue channel (look at channels in PS if you wish).

Here is a 1:1 crop:

Here is the NEF converted to Gamma 1 without color temp correction in Dcraw:

Here is the histogram. As is evident, the blue channel is very severely underexposed. The large gain needed for white balance of the blue channel results in severe noise. A balancing filter would have helped here by requiring increased camera exposure and filtering out excessive red and green light. In other shots that day with better exposure, the blue channel was still noisy but produced better results. As gonzalu says, best results would be with an 80A filter to present the sensor with enough blue light to work with and not require boosting of the blue channel.

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Bill Janes

MOD TOF guy Forum Pro • Posts: 16,079
noise !

Carlo wrote:

What is still unclear to me is the best trade off between losing
stops and getting better noise.

It is about noise: which of the following two scenarios provide the less noise:

  • a filter, higher ISO

  • no filter, lower ISO

but same aperture/shutter speed.
The 1st one wins.
--
Thierry

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MOD TOF guy Forum Pro • Posts: 16,079
Re: There is no substitue for good technique...

Manny

which one do you use ?

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Thierry

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gonzalu
gonzalu Forum Pro • Posts: 10,420
I think it is worth every penny :-)

But it depends on the situation and the shot necessity and whether or not you are trying to go for the ultimate shot.

It depends it depends it depends

I know this Architecture photographer that takes three days to get ONE SHOT!! So imagine.... LOL
--
Manny
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