B&W printing, inkjet, amateur on a budget

Started Mar 13, 2005 | Discussions
FrancoPrussianWar New Member • Posts: 8
B&W printing, inkjet, amateur on a budget

I have learned over the years I am color challenged (the sutleties elude me) so have shot mostly black and white. I have given my darkroom equipment to a local high school and have gone entirely digital with a film scanner for my old negatives and shoot entirely digital now. I use Photoshop 7.0 and will soon upgrade to CS. I have an Epson Stylus Photo 750 that has been a workhorse for years but am not pleased with its black and white output and wish to upgrade without huge cost (hopefully less than $800 for printer and first batch of inks). I rarely make prints over 8x10. Reading what I can on this forum and others (there is nothing since the end of January on this topic) I wonder if the new Epson R1800 or one of the new Canon printers would fit my amateur needs? MIS or other special inks? Anyone out there in the same boat?

David Grabowski Veteran Member • Posts: 7,291
Matte or gloss papers ?

If matte is what you like best ( kind of reminds me of older fiber based papers) you might consider the Epson 2200 and the Quadtone Rip software. You can buy the 2200 now for under or around $600 and the Rip is shareware. It's probably the best bang for the buck in nice B+W output and while you say you print mostly up to 8x10, that's probably because you haven't the rig to go larger. When you make a Watercolor B+W at 13x19 you might feel differently about it. Velvet Paper is exceptionally nice in B+W too and goes large really well. The gain of the rip though is you can change tones of your B+W images within the software. Takes a learning curve time but it works.

In letter size you might consider one of the HP printers ( you need to here from one of the HP guys on the forum as to which one because I really don't know ). Some of the guys around the forum printing in B+W are saying the results from certain HP printers is very good. I'd personally rather have the pigmented ink of the 2200 but that's a personal choice geared around print longevity.

The final choice would be to buy a printer and add one of the quad inks, or mono inks from various companies, these are all black ink cartridges usually bought with a certain tone in mind up front ( warm tone, cool etc.). You can also get the same inks for a continuous inking system but that may bust the budget up front, though save on ink in the long run.

David

FrancoPrussianWar wrote:

I have learned over the years I am color challenged (the sutleties
elude me) so have shot mostly black and white. I have given my
darkroom equipment to a local high school and have gone entirely
digital with a film scanner for my old negatives and shoot entirely
digital now. I use Photoshop 7.0 and will soon upgrade to CS. I
have an Epson Stylus Photo 750 that has been a workhorse for years
but am not pleased with its black and white output and wish to
upgrade without huge cost (hopefully less than $800 for printer and
first batch of inks). I rarely make prints over 8x10. Reading what
I can on this forum and others (there is nothing since the end of
January on this topic) I wonder if the new Epson R1800 or one of
the new Canon printers would fit my amateur needs? MIS or other
special inks? Anyone out there in the same boat?

JimB630
JimB630 Regular Member • Posts: 392
Epson C86 with MIS inks?

It has been quite a few months ago, but I followed one thread that discussed purchasing an Epson C84 or C86 and using the MIS inks. I would certainly like to hear if that is still a good alternative. I have not done anything yet. Like you, I am a bit color challanged. Well, actully quite a bit. I have what is known as a red-green color deficiency. But I love B&W!
--
Jim B in Indiana

 JimB630's gear list:JimB630's gear list
Canon G1 X III Canon EOS 6D
OP FrancoPrussianWar New Member • Posts: 8
Re: Epson C86 with MIS inks?

JimB630 wrote:

It has been quite a few months ago, but I followed one thread that
discussed purchasing an Epson C84 or C86 and using the MIS inks. I
would certainly like to hear if that is still a good alternative. I
have not done anything yet. Like you, I am a bit color challanged.
Well, actully quite a bit. I have what is known as a red-green
color deficiency. But I love B&W!
--
Jim B in Indiana

Loving black and white is what it's all about. Thanks so much for your comments
FPW in Alberta

OP FrancoPrussianWar New Member • Posts: 8
Re: Matte or gloss papers ?

David Grabowski wrote:
If matte is what you like best ( kind of reminds me of older fiber
based papers) you might consider the Epson 2200 and the Quadtone
Rip software. You can buy the 2200 now for under or around $600
and the Rip is shareware. It's probably the best bang for the buck
in nice B+W output and while you say you print mostly up to 8x10,
that's probably because you haven't the rig to go larger. When you
make a Watercolor B+W at 13x19 you might feel differently about it.
Velvet Paper is exceptionally nice in B+W too and goes large really
well. The gain of the rip though is you can change tones of your
B+W images within the software. Takes a learning curve time but it
works.

In letter size you might consider one of the HP printers ( you need
to here from one of the HP guys on the forum as to which one
because I really don't know ). Some of the guys around the forum
printing in B+W are saying the results from certain HP printers is
very good. I'd personally rather have the pigmented ink of the 2200
but that's a personal choice geared around print longevity.

The final choice would be to buy a printer and add one of the quad
inks, or mono inks from various companies, these are all black ink
cartridges usually bought with a certain tone in mind up front (
warm tone, cool etc.). You can also get the same inks for a
continuous inking system but that may bust the budget up front,
though save on ink in the long run.

David

FrancoPrussianWar wrote:

I have learned over the years I am color challenged (the sutleties
elude me) so have shot mostly black and white. I have given my
darkroom equipment to a local high school and have gone entirely
digital with a film scanner for my old negatives and shoot entirely
digital now. I use Photoshop 7.0 and will soon upgrade to CS. I
have an Epson Stylus Photo 750 that has been a workhorse for years
but am not pleased with its black and white output and wish to
upgrade without huge cost (hopefully less than $800 for printer and
first batch of inks). I rarely make prints over 8x10. Reading what
I can on this forum and others (there is nothing since the end of
January on this topic) I wonder if the new Epson R1800 or one of
the new Canon printers would fit my amateur needs? MIS or other
special inks? Anyone out there in the same boat?

Thank you David - Many say that results are better on matte papers, I must admit I have yet to try but will as of tomorrow.

As far as the 2200 - it may be available for a good price soon with the R1800 coming out - but I'll guess we'll have to wait until the R1800 is out before being able to judge the best print for the overall trouble. I may not have the volume to justify continuous inks ( I guess you mean the big resevoirs?) my volume may not be big enough and I have read they dry out and cause problems for low volume operations.

FPW

Mike Chinnock Senior Member • Posts: 1,663
I use an older HP 7660 Photosmart . . .

FrancoPrussianWar wrote:

I have learned over the years I am color challenged (the sutleties
elude me) so have shot mostly black and white. I have given my
darkroom equipment to a local high school and have gone entirely
digital with a film scanner for my old negatives and shoot entirely
digital now. I use Photoshop 7.0 and will soon upgrade to CS. I
have an Epson Stylus Photo 750 that has been a workhorse for years
but am not pleased with its black and white output and wish to
upgrade without huge cost (hopefully less than $800 for printer and
first batch of inks). I rarely make prints over 8x10. Reading what
I can on this forum and others (there is nothing since the end of
January on this topic) I wonder if the new Epson R1800 or one of
the new Canon printers would fit my amateur needs? MIS or other
special inks? Anyone out there in the same boat?

-- hide signature --

. . . printer that uses the #59, gray/white, cartridge for very nice black and white prints. This is a couple years old and I do not know the current HP printer for black and white prints. The 7660 swaps its 2nd cartridge, as either a black for fast text, a color, or a photo black. I find HP refillable and when I do buy a new cartridge, I get new nozzles.

Good luck, and ...

Happy Shooting !

Mike Chinnock

cdusa Regular Member • Posts: 124
HP 7660 and Epson C86

I second the HP 7660. I have one and it works beautifully with the #59 gray cartdrige. Harder to find though today - but should be around 50-70$ if found refurbished (OfficeMax has a bunch of them).

It gives you unbelievably pain-free - crisp 1200 dpi printing images, with no hassle. Works nicely on gloss and lustre papers. As teh above poster - use trhe InkTec refill kits and the prices will drop dramatically. A cartdrige is like 24$ and you can print probably 50-60 4x6 in at Max dpi - or 20-25 8x11 at max dpi settings.

Now - I mentioned HP 7660 AND C84 for a good reason. Coming from a darkroom/b&w setting - you migt want to look at some warmer prints - and the Hp gives you kind of cold B&W.

I found absolutely fascinating the pure carbon prints from the Epson C84 with the MIS inks (www.inksupply.com) - they work on matte papers too (one of the main shortcomings of the HP systems) and there ius that warm - almost sepia toned B&W that has to be sen to be able to be described.

Anyhow - both printers are under 100$. It matters a lot what you expect from B&W - and you can find alost as many fanatics in the BW printing as in the good old days with Ilford and Kodak Tri-X bar fights...

Regards, DusaC

References: http://www.inksupply.com , http://www.paulroark.com and there is a good Yahoo group for Digital Black and White Printing...

everett yee Forum Member • Posts: 68
I have the C86 and MIS

I bought the Eboni black ink from MIS, but instead of buying all four grayscale cartridges, I just replaced the black so that I can still print color if I still want to.

Check out the following article by Clayton Jones on black only printing:
http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn3.htm .

I've had good results so far with black only printing using the Eboni MIS ink, but with the cheap C86 instead of the 2200 or 1280, like Clayton mentions.

FrancoPrussianWar wrote:

I have learned over the years I am color challenged (the sutleties
elude me) so have shot mostly black and white. I have given my
darkroom equipment to a local high school and have gone entirely
digital with a film scanner for my old negatives and shoot entirely
digital now. I use Photoshop 7.0 and will soon upgrade to CS. I
have an Epson Stylus Photo 750 that has been a workhorse for years
but am not pleased with its black and white output and wish to
upgrade without huge cost (hopefully less than $800 for printer and
first batch of inks). I rarely make prints over 8x10. Reading what
I can on this forum and others (there is nothing since the end of
January on this topic) I wonder if the new Epson R1800 or one of
the new Canon printers would fit my amateur needs? MIS or other
special inks? Anyone out there in the same boat?

DonR Regular Member • Posts: 317
I just set up....

An Epson C86 with thw MIS EZ ink set (warm tone)....all I can say is WOW !......it was painless and very very easy to use.

My first print was on Epson Enhanced Matte paper and looked awesome.

I sent a RGB (yes ...RGB...no B&W conversion needed) file ...just had to adjust the brightness to MY liking by using the sliders in the Epson driver...that was it.

My favorite fine art paper is Cranes Mueso cotton rag...but I have that on order as I'm out of it now....

Don

JimB630 wrote:

It has been quite a few months ago, but I followed one thread that
discussed purchasing an Epson C84 or C86 and using the MIS inks. I
would certainly like to hear if that is still a good alternative. I
have not done anything yet. Like you, I am a bit color challanged.
Well, actully quite a bit. I have what is known as a red-green
color deficiency. But I love B&W!
--
Jim B in Indiana

-- hide signature --

The very last thing you do.... release the shutter.

abergfeld Regular Member • Posts: 286
Check out the HP 8750, due out in May (nt)

FrancoPrussianWar wrote:

I have learned over the years I am color challenged (the sutleties
elude me) so have shot mostly black and white. I have given my
darkroom equipment to a local high school and have gone entirely
digital with a film scanner for my old negatives and shoot entirely
digital now. I use Photoshop 7.0 and will soon upgrade to CS. I
have an Epson Stylus Photo 750 that has been a workhorse for years
but am not pleased with its black and white output and wish to
upgrade without huge cost (hopefully less than $800 for printer and
first batch of inks). I rarely make prints over 8x10. Reading what
I can on this forum and others (there is nothing since the end of
January on this topic) I wonder if the new Epson R1800 or one of
the new Canon printers would fit my amateur needs? MIS or other
special inks? Anyone out there in the same boat?

-- hide signature --

Alan

OP FrancoPrussianWar New Member • Posts: 8
Re: I have the C86 and MIS

Thak you to all who have replied to this posting -- it has helped me beyond measure, certainly beyond my expectations. Black and white is beautiful.

FPW

everett yee wrote:
I bought the Eboni black ink from MIS, but instead of buying all
four grayscale cartridges, I just replaced the black so that I can
still print color if I still want to.

Check out the following article by Clayton Jones on black only
printing:
http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn3.htm .

I've had good results so far with black only printing using the
Eboni MIS ink, but with the cheap C86 instead of the 2200 or 1280,
like Clayton mentions.

FrancoPrussianWar wrote:

I have learned over the years I am color challenged (the sutleties
elude me) so have shot mostly black and white. I have given my
darkroom equipment to a local high school and have gone entirely
digital with a film scanner for my old negatives and shoot entirely
digital now. I use Photoshop 7.0 and will soon upgrade to CS. I
have an Epson Stylus Photo 750 that has been a workhorse for years
but am not pleased with its black and white output and wish to
upgrade without huge cost (hopefully less than $800 for printer and
first batch of inks). I rarely make prints over 8x10. Reading what
I can on this forum and others (there is nothing since the end of
January on this topic) I wonder if the new Epson R1800 or one of
the new Canon printers would fit my amateur needs? MIS or other
special inks? Anyone out there in the same boat?

RLD Senior Member • Posts: 1,343
Re: Check out the HP 8750, due out in May (nt)

Is the 7960 obsolete, and replaced by the HP 8150 & 8450? They use the 97, 99, & 100 cartridges. They contain the Vivera inks which have been rated for 100 years of fade resistance by Wilhelm Research. WWW.wilhelm-research.com . The important fact in this discussion is the 100 cartridge has 3 shades of gray/black, similar to the 59.

At any rate, I bought an 8450 for $229. It makes great color prints, and is advertised to be excellent for B&W because of the three shades of gray ink. I've only made a couple B&W so far and they look good. I converted one to B&W with Nikon Capture, and also adjusted a night parking structure photo to a greenish B&W. The prints I've made have matched the Sharp (brand name) LCD display without any fancy calibration.

My plan is to use the 8450 to reproduce all the photos in 1920's photo albums from my wifes parents. My expectation is to get better results with less effort than when I used a Pentax, film, and chemicals for a diferent album years ago.

Later I may move up to a 13" by 19" printer, and will probably be considering the Epson 2200, or the new HP8750 and Epson R1800.

I guess the bottom line is - for $229 the 8450 makes great color, and excellent B&W with out the hassle of exotic ink setups etc. I'll keep my fingers crossed, but so far, so good.

RLD

abergfeld wrote:

FrancoPrussianWar wrote:

I have learned over the years I am color challenged (the sutleties
elude me) so have shot mostly black and white. I have given my
darkroom equipment to a local high school and have gone entirely
digital with a film scanner for my old negatives and shoot entirely
digital now. I use Photoshop 7.0 and will soon upgrade to CS. I
have an Epson Stylus Photo 750 that has been a workhorse for years
but am not pleased with its black and white output and wish to
upgrade without huge cost (hopefully less than $800 for printer and
first batch of inks). I rarely make prints over 8x10. Reading what
I can on this forum and others (there is nothing since the end of
January on this topic) I wonder if the new Epson R1800 or one of
the new Canon printers would fit my amateur needs? MIS or other
special inks? Anyone out there in the same boat?

-- hide signature --

RLD

Keith Aitken Veteran Member • Posts: 6,575
C-86 seconded

I also use the C-86 for a dedicated B&W printer, with MIS inks.
For less than $80 USA, it is a bargain.

The prints are stunning and accurate. Disadvantage is that the C-86
only goes to 8.5 x 11, so you may wish to spend more money for
larger format, athough you mention that you rarely go above 8 x 10.

Good luck,
Keith

 Keith Aitken's gear list:Keith Aitken's gear list
Nikon D3S
DonR Regular Member • Posts: 317
Keith...are you

using the warm ink set or the neutral ink set ? I'm using thw warm set and really like it......

Don

Keith Aitken wrote:

I also use the C-86 for a dedicated B&W printer, with MIS inks.
For less than $80 USA, it is a bargain.

The prints are stunning and accurate. Disadvantage is that the C-86
only goes to 8.5 x 11, so you may wish to spend more money for
larger format, athough you mention that you rarely go above 8 x 10.

Good luck,
Keith

-- hide signature --

The very last thing you do.... release the shutter.

Keith Aitken Veteran Member • Posts: 6,575
Don - Using neutral

Hi Don

Currently using MIS neutral but have wanted to try the warm tones.
Glad you like those . . . Maybe I will make a change the next time
I fill up

Whichever you use, it is an inexpensive way to create great B&W s

Keith

 Keith Aitken's gear list:Keith Aitken's gear list
Nikon D3S
DonR Regular Member • Posts: 317
Keith.....

Thanks for the input........you are right...it's pretty amazing that for around $100.00 total you can print some great B&W....too bad it's not 13" x 19" printer.

Wondering if I sent you a few sheets of paper and an image if you would output them on neutral inksets.....I'd be glad to return the favor. I'm thinking of setting up another Epson C86 with the neutral inksets. If so ...email me off line....

Thanks

Don

Keith Aitken wrote:

Hi Don

Currently using MIS neutral but have wanted to try the warm tones.
Glad you like those . . . Maybe I will make a change the next time
I fill up

Whichever you use, it is an inexpensive way to create great B&W s

Keith

-- hide signature --

The very last thing you do.... release the shutter.

Brad Hill Forum Member • Posts: 74
Re: B&W printing, inkjet, amateur on a budget

Take a look at the HP 7960. It was recently replaced by the 8000 series but from what I can tell they don't offer much of an improvement. The ink is supposedly nicer though it's a tad more expensive and there's a little less per cartridge. They also have a nice new look.

Lots of people recommend the 7960 for B&W printing noting true gray shades due to the #59 Gray Photo cartridges. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone having complaints with B&W prints from this printer.

The two main complaints are lack of color management profiles/options, and pizza wheel marks when using some papers.

I don't know that the color management issue is going to be much of a problem if you're focusing on B&W and it really hasn't been a problem for my color printing either.

Not all 7960 owners have problems with the pizza wheel marks but I do occasionally see it on some of mine. The trend I've seen is that they are more prevalent with thinner papers. I've had 0 marks show up on the HP Premium Plus Photo Paper Matte or the Ilford Gallerie Classic Pearl papers. The newer HP PPPP Glossy that is 280 g/m weight also hasn't given me any problems but the older PPPP that is 240 (i think) does occasionally show the wheel marks.

With the release of the 8000 series HP inkjets, prices on the 7960 have dropped like a rock. I think I paid $250 for mine under a year ago. Now you can get one for $100 from staples.

http://www.staples.com/Catalog/Browse/SKU.asp?BCFlag=False&PageType=1&SKU=517248

Brad

FrancoPrussianWar wrote:

I have learned over the years I am color challenged (the sutleties
elude me) so have shot mostly black and white. I have given my
darkroom equipment to a local high school and have gone entirely
digital with a film scanner for my old negatives and shoot entirely
digital now. I use Photoshop 7.0 and will soon upgrade to CS. I
have an Epson Stylus Photo 750 that has been a workhorse for years
but am not pleased with its black and white output and wish to
upgrade without huge cost (hopefully less than $800 for printer and
first batch of inks). I rarely make prints over 8x10. Reading what
I can on this forum and others (there is nothing since the end of
January on this topic) I wonder if the new Epson R1800 or one of
the new Canon printers would fit my amateur needs? MIS or other
special inks? Anyone out there in the same boat?

Brad Franklin Contributing Member • Posts: 568
Re: I have the C86 and MIS

If you're comfortable buying a used printer, see if you can find an old Epson 1160 wide carriage printer on Ebay. Got mine for about $90 and it does a great job with the MIS UT variable tone inks (I use Quad Tone Rip to print).

everett yee wrote:
I bought the Eboni black ink from MIS, but instead of buying all
four grayscale cartridges, I just replaced the black so that I can
still print color if I still want to.

Check out the following article by Clayton Jones on black only
printing:
http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn3.htm .

I've had good results so far with black only printing using the
Eboni MIS ink, but with the cheap C86 instead of the 2200 or 1280,
like Clayton mentions.

FrancoPrussianWar wrote:

I have learned over the years I am color challenged (the sutleties
elude me) so have shot mostly black and white. I have given my
darkroom equipment to a local high school and have gone entirely
digital with a film scanner for my old negatives and shoot entirely
digital now. I use Photoshop 7.0 and will soon upgrade to CS. I
have an Epson Stylus Photo 750 that has been a workhorse for years
but am not pleased with its black and white output and wish to
upgrade without huge cost (hopefully less than $800 for printer and
first batch of inks). I rarely make prints over 8x10. Reading what
I can on this forum and others (there is nothing since the end of
January on this topic) I wonder if the new Epson R1800 or one of
the new Canon printers would fit my amateur needs? MIS or other
special inks? Anyone out there in the same boat?

-- hide signature --

'Expose for the highlights; post process for the shadows'

rebelgeek Forum Member • Posts: 75
Re: I have the C86 and MIS

I have a c84 with the MIS EZ neutral inks and it does a great job. I wasn't too pleased with the Black Only printing compared to my 2200 Black Only. I plan on using my c84 for some time to come for just Black & white printing...

everett yee wrote:
I bought the Eboni black ink from MIS, but instead of buying all
four grayscale cartridges, I just replaced the black so that I can
still print color if I still want to.

Check out the following article by Clayton Jones on black only
printing:
http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn3.htm .

I've had good results so far with black only printing using the
Eboni MIS ink, but with the cheap C86 instead of the 2200 or 1280,
like Clayton mentions.

FrancoPrussianWar wrote:

I have learned over the years I am color challenged (the sutleties
elude me) so have shot mostly black and white. I have given my
darkroom equipment to a local high school and have gone entirely
digital with a film scanner for my old negatives and shoot entirely
digital now. I use Photoshop 7.0 and will soon upgrade to CS. I
have an Epson Stylus Photo 750 that has been a workhorse for years
but am not pleased with its black and white output and wish to
upgrade without huge cost (hopefully less than $800 for printer and
first batch of inks). I rarely make prints over 8x10. Reading what
I can on this forum and others (there is nothing since the end of
January on this topic) I wonder if the new Epson R1800 or one of
the new Canon printers would fit my amateur needs? MIS or other
special inks? Anyone out there in the same boat?

Mark B. Forum Pro • Posts: 25,684
Re: Matte or gloss papers ?

Thank you David - Many say that results are better on matte papers,
I must admit I have yet to try but will as of tomorrow.
As far as the 2200 - it may be available for a good price soon with
the R1800 coming out

Don't count on it - the R1800 isn't replacing the 2200.

Mark

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