Can one of the girls post soccer pics? [P]

Boo I wonder how much of this is a cultural difference. (For instance even your use of the word amend is one I have not seen used here — at least not that I can remember in the way you are using it) I checked and you are from the UK and Justme is from Canada. I am from the US and your reaction all through this has come through to me as expecting us to be mind readers and stated in a harsh manor. It has been common practice in the sections of DPreview that I have visited to use a repost of an image as a form of comment to illustrate a point and much more likely than just a written reply when the poster thinks something would be an improvement done a different way. With photography being a visual medium most of us get a point easier by seeing it rather than reading about it.

I do like the photos. I was struck by your comments about bright sun. That is another illustration of difference in location as that is the expected condition for a day game of a sport played outdoors here in the states.
Jane

Boo said:

Boo said:

Natinha wrote:
Personally, if I post an image here, I hope that someone will
illustrate to me how they think I could process the image better. I
can't lose - because I can only agree or disagree.

Click to expand...

But that is your view on it and mine simply differs. You don't
mind your images being changed, I do. Had I been unhappy with the
image or felt there was a problem with it, I would have made that
clear and asked for help. I asked for comments, I didn't say there
was a problem with the image, how can I address it? In this
instance, I didn't feel the response was appropriate or justified.
Please just accept that my feelings about my images are different
than yours.

Boo said:

Just be careful, because maybe one day you won't be happy about
some of your photos and you could really do with some help...maybe
then you might not get it? You understand where I'm coming from?

Click to expand...

That sounds suspiciously like a threat. If I ask for help, as with
any post made here, it will either be responded to, or it won't.
People will respond if they choose to. I myself have posters I
don't bother helping or in many cases even reading, if people have
a problem with me, they'll do likewise, as is their prerogative.

Boo said:

Please dont take the sense of community and the desire to help one
another to improve as photographers and digital-develpers out of
this forum.

Click to expand...

I didn't think I was, I have been courteous and respectful in every
post I've made. I fail to see why personal insults (you yourself
suggested that the heat was obviously getting to me) and character
assasination need to have a place here. I'm happy to discuss the
issues, but I don't see why I should be personally insulted, it
simply isn't necessary to discuss a photography issue.

Perhaps you'd also like to offer some comment on the images, you
have commented on my posting technique, but not on the photography.

--
So many photos, so little time . . .
http://www.peekaboo.me.uk - general portfolio & tutorials
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http://imageevent.com/boophotos/ - most recent images
Please do not amend and re-post my images unless specifically
requested or given permission to do so.

Click to expand...

Boo said:

And I already said that I shot in RAW, the shot isn't underexposed,
it's developed the way I chose, had I felt it was under, I would
have adjusted it - in fact I think I reduced the exposure with -ve
EC as some of the detail on the white shirt was starting to blow.

Click to expand...

This is where shadow/highlight comes to rescue in Photoshop. It will allow you to increase detail in shadow and/or highlights. Try it if you have CS.

Since you don't, you can use curves to to open up shadow and highlights. Better than ending up with soemthing that looks underexposed to prevent blowing details.

Miguel Angel said:

Those are good pictures and this is a long thread, I don't know if
somebody already told you this, but there is too much background in
focus, the problem with that background is that my eyes are drawn
from the action. And you said it, you step down to get more DOF.
I like the colors and the action of those pictures.

Click to expand...

Thank you. I was using the lenses I have at the widest aperture they'll allow for the focal length I was using - at 300mm, it will have been f5.6 and with the 28-135mm, f5.6 at 135mm. In that particular event, the normal football pitch was set out with three smaller pitches width-wide and there was a lot of activity between pitches and at the peripheries - one half of the stadium was in full sunlight and the other in deep shadow - the crowd were in full sunlight and therefore very vibrant and bright in the background. Had I changed position and shot the other way - I would have got a potential much better background, but was shooting towards the sun with the problems that then brings. Every shot was some sort of compromise as is usually the case when shooting things you're not in control of.

It was very difficult to get the necessary geometry, with the lenses I have, to get much less DOF and in fact in some of the views I will be publishing, I have actually manually blurred the background where it was especially distracting - I'm well aware that it isn't ideal. In one of the shots I posted here - and the shots are for a band's web site - I deliberately left the background in view as the keyboard player was in the shot (he wasn't playing) as was another celebrity the fans of the band like - I made a decision to leave it deep in that case so they could be seen - they're part of the joke, but that wouldn't feature here in this context.

I would have loved to have less DOF on the shots had they been for my own amusement, but with the gear I had, the layout of the event and my positions - it just wasn't going to happen. A faster zoom would no doubt have done a better job for me, but the wish list is longer than the budget. Was it ever thus!

--
So many photos, so little time . . .
http://www.peekaboo.me.uk - general portfolio & tutorials
http://www.boo-photos.co.uk - live music portfolio
http://imageevent.com/boophotos/ - most recent images

Please do not amend and re-post my images unless specifically requested or given permission to do so.

icmp said:

I can understand and empathize with the image owner. And, I agree
she has a right to request the images NOT be tampered with.
However, lacking a specific message (on the site the images were
obtained from or on her posts), the spirit in which the image was
used by another poster seems to neatly fit into the age old
classification of 'fair use':

Click to expand...

The image itself has a graphic copyright notice - not actually required of course - but it does usually act as an indicator of the feeling of the image owner. If they bother to add one to an image, I think it is reasonable to expect that be noted and respected.

As for fair use, that would be for a lawyer to decide - and don't forget, you're spouting US copyright law, as I'm in England and the image was created here, it is English law that presides in this instance under the terms of the Berne Convention, so US copyright legislation is wholly irrelevant.

icmp said:

Boo taking such offense at this use and than trying to bash the
poster with the Copyright stick is, perhaps, a bit offbase.
Politely requesting that the poster promptly remove her image and
stating her desire to NOT have her images subject to this kind of
use would seem a more appropriate response, given the very probably
legality of what the other poster had done.

Click to expand...

I believe that was exactly what I did and the amended copy of my image still remains, depsite asking twice for it to be removed. The only reference I made to copyright was this: "didn't you spot the copyright notice when you were tinkering with my work?" It has been everyone else discussing copyright, not me, I don't think you could call that bashing anyone with the copyright stick. My comment was as I stated in the first paragraph, that it should have acted as an indicator to the poster that edited my work, that it wouldn't be something I'd appreciate.

I could also selectively copy from the sites that you have, to put precisely the opposite perspective, there is more than enough content to do that, but I particularly liked this phrase at the bottom:

"Don't rationalize that you are helping the copyright holder; often it's not that hard to ask permission."

icmp said:

There are certainly some
best practices that should and could be followed.. here and in
general. Always post with a clear copyright message (not required,
but it is beneficial),

Click to expand...

I did. That was my point.

icmp said:

be polite and respectful of copywritten work, the
copyright holder, and the laws which govern such things.

Click to expand...

He wasn't. That was my point.

Thanks for your kind words on the images.

--
So many photos, so little time . . .
http://www.peekaboo.me.uk - general portfolio & tutorials
http://www.boo-photos.co.uk - live music portfolio
http://imageevent.com/boophotos/ - most recent images

Please do not amend and re-post my images unless specifically requested or given permission to do so.

jarobe said:

nice pics boo

Click to expand...

--
So many photos, so little time . . .
http://www.peekaboo.me.uk - general portfolio & tutorials
http://www.boo-photos.co.uk - live music portfolio
http://imageevent.com/boophotos/ - most recent images

Please do not amend and re-post my images unless specifically requested or given permission to do so.

Povl H. Pedersen said:

This is where shadow/highlight comes to rescue in Photoshop. It
will allow you to increase detail in shadow and/or highlights. Try
it if you have CS.

Since you don't, you can use curves to to open up shadow and
highlights. Better than ending up with soemthing that looks
underexposed to prevent blowing details.

Click to expand...

Since I posted the images, which were reasonably finished proofs at that stage for shortlisting for publication, I've now had the opportuinity to re-work some of the ones where the shadow areas were especially bad, so the images showing in the opening post are now final ones and not the same ones originally posted - some are the same, they had alreday been finalised.

I personally don't like using curves for localised adjustments, largely because I don't appear to have the skill to do it well enough. My preferred method is to have two copies of an image, one lightened for the shadows (or whatever is required), place one on top of the other and mask out the incorrect one where required to allow the lighter one underneath to show through in localised spots. On big adjustments, I develop two copies from the RAW original and blend them - with these that are for web publishing, I often just duplicate the open image in the software, lighten one with a curve and pop the other on top of it - it doesn't take longer than it has to write this. I feel I get better results that way and am in better control of the results than I personally would be with using a curve.

I think this is one of the little areas where Photoshop offers an advantage in that, if I'm correct, you can click in the image with an eye dropper and it places that tone on the curve for you - I can't do that in PSP and I think it makes curve work more hit and miss and less successful. That's one of the few little features I feel I miss out on.

--
So many photos, so little time . . .
http://www.peekaboo.me.uk - general portfolio & tutorials
http://www.boo-photos.co.uk - live music portfolio
http://imageevent.com/boophotos/ - most recent images

Please do not amend and re-post my images unless specifically requested or given permission to do so.

Nice work! But in my case, it is inspiration for my sons football (I'm European games.

--jalle

icmp said:

most importantly, to Boo: Nice work! Gives me something to shoot
for over the coming weekends at my daughter's soccer games. thanks!

icmp

Click to expand...

dchao said:

No - Boo shot wide open:

Click to expand...

Indeed I did. I was working with the 28-135mm lens and the 100-300mm lens - neither could be considered ideal for this genre of photography. At the maximum focal length of each lens I was stuck with f5.6 in a location where the lighting and geometry didn't favour me in respect of DOF and securing a shallow one. My brief in this instance was not necessarily to secure the most dramatic sporting shots, which had I been shooting for myself would have been, but to record the event for posterity for the band themselves and to publish a set of photos on the band's web site - the ladies want to see the gentlemen, the soccer is pretty irrelevant, they just want knees! ;-)

dchao said:

I think the problem was that boo was using non-L lens, so his wide
open was best at f/4.5.

Click to expand...

At very short FLs I was able to get f3.5, but most shots I took were around f4.5 or f5.6. I'm a woman by the way.

--
So many photos, so little time . . .
http://www.peekaboo.me.uk - general portfolio & tutorials
http://www.boo-photos.co.uk - live music portfolio
http://imageevent.com/boophotos/ - most recent images

Please do not amend and re-post my images unless specifically requested or given permission to do so.

Gayle said:

Boo, an excellent lot of photos, congratulations on another job
very well done (as usual!)

Click to expand...

Thank you kindly. The band themselves and the rest of the team are delighted with the shots - the ones I posted here aren't perhaps as relevant to the band, these were ones I thought had more photographic merit - but the rest of the set feature some good goal action and diving saves from the drummer and many are there for their humour value as much as the footballing skills. No matter what is said here about them, which is personal to me and my work, I met my brief, earned my keep and the parties involved are all happy. Any portfolio shots I secure are a personal bonus.

Gayle159626 said:

I shot my 10yo daughters football match last week......first time
photographing Aussie rules footy, and I had a blast. It tried out
sports mode for the first time, I loved the full time AI servo
focus. My pics were no where near as good as yours but I had fun
and my daughter loved them.

Click to expand...

Isn't that all that matters? I didn't try sports, I contemplated it for AI Servo, but decided it was too pressured and important to be testing ideas, I will do though if I get another less professional opportunity. I know where I stand with other modes, largely Av in this instance that I had enough to think of already without trying something new on this particular occasion.

Gayle159626 said:

Two teams of under 10's, battling it
out for supremacy on the footy field makes for totally
unpredictable results...cos the kids seem to have no idea what
they're supposed to be doing and all 36 of them are hell bent on
getting the ball! LOL!

Click to expand...

You obviously haven't seen musicians playing football after warming up in the bar - they were about as mature as 10 year olds and just as unpredictable. Actually, that's perhaps unkind, they played incredibly hard and took it pretty seriously, no one could accuse them of not trying. It actually mattered.

Gayle159626 said:

For the record, I support you on your stand to NOT have your photos
meddled with (and yes, it's meddling, messing up other peoples
work).
Stick to your guns on this issue!

Click to expand...

Thank you kindly, I was beginning to think I was unique on this. I'm not sure why the discussion has had to turn so nasty and personal about it though, it would be nice if my different perspective could just be recognised, accepted, and then respected - and my request for the image to be removed, honoured.

--
So many photos, so little time . . .
http://www.peekaboo.me.uk - general portfolio & tutorials
http://www.boo-photos.co.uk - live music portfolio
http://imageevent.com/boophotos/ - most recent images

Please do not amend and re-post my images unless specifically requested or given permission to do so.

Volker Lauterbach said:

If you tried to lighten up then maybe
we could talk more about pictures and less about pseudo copyright
issues and other such things.

Click to expand...

With respect, all the nastiness, character assasinations and most of the discussion about the 'copyright issue' has been by other people, I've been trying to steer it back to the issue. One individual who hasn't even touched on a photography issue has been responsible for about 20% of the posts in this thread.

Volker Lauterbach said:

The pictures are pretty good, although the action may actually be
captured too weel, meaning "frozen", so maybe a slower shutter
would have allowed for some motion in the pics and accentuating the
feeling of action, but that is a matter of personal taste of course.

Click to expand...

I actually don't think I could have slowed the shutter any more, I was wide open (as wide as any particual focal length on the lens in use would allow) and at 100ISO the whole time. There have been many comments about the DOF being too deep and I should have opened up further, so had I stopped show to slow the shutter, it would have increased DOF further and the consensus expressed is that a shallow DOF is better for sports - a view with which I'd concur.

My brief was also not to necessarily secure dramatic sporting shots, any I did like that (some of those posted here) were for my own amusement, but to record the event for the band's web site and for the band to have a record themselves - so most of the end viewers are more interested in whether the bass player has cute knees than my potential prowess as a sports photographer, that was why I outlined the job in the opening post. Had I been attending the event for my own experience or amusement, I may well have worked differently.

The brief and purpose of a job often have a big impact on what approach you adopt, the press photographers I was working alongside, were there purely in the hope that one of the soap starts might flash their breasts and others from the agencies were taking close ups of celebs at the periphery, not the sport at all - one photographer spent a great deal of time with a long lens trained on the VIP enclosure where the teams' families were watching, hoping to catch a glimpse one one soap star's alleged estranged boyfriend looking bored - he would have peed himself had the poor lad yawned!

--
So many photos, so little time . . .
http://www.peekaboo.me.uk - general portfolio & tutorials
http://www.boo-photos.co.uk - live music portfolio
http://imageevent.com/boophotos/ - most recent images

Please do not amend and re-post my images unless specifically requested or given permission to do so.

Boo said:

Boo said:

Just be careful, because maybe one day you won't be happy about
some of your photos and you could really do with some help...maybe
then you might not get it? You understand where I'm coming from?

Click to expand...

That sounds suspiciously like a threat.

Click to expand...

No not a threat - just a slight reference to "the boy who cried wolf."

Boo said:

Perhaps you'd also like to offer some comment on the images, you
have commented on my posting technique, but not on the photography.

Click to expand...

I love some of the facial expressions captured, especially the shot with "Shane" (wearing number 5) - the guy on the left with his hand in the air. You've captured the slighty rough and tumble feel of a not-quite-professional game. Any nice photos of some goals?

--
My homepage full of photos:
http://www.aquitania.co.uk

Natinha said:

I love some of the facial expressions captured, especially the shot
with "Shane" (wearing number 5) - the guy on the left with his hand
in the air. You've captured the slighty rough and tumble feel of a
not-quite-professional game.

Click to expand...

In that image, which was full frame exactly as that, I haven't cropped it at all, the chap with his hand in the air is in fact the only pro on the team - he's recently signed for Modena. Shane is in a boy band and the chap on the right 'Stelfox', is our bass player, who rarely moves anything like that much. This is how you'd normall see him, he's one of my very favourite subjects as he's camera-aware without hamming it up and if I gesture with my head he'll shift position for me and he doesn't move much generally - this photo was taken in almost darkness with very deep red lighting, hence the B&W treatment:

Natinha said:

Any nice photos of some goals?

Click to expand...

Not especially, this was my personal favourite, none of the others caught them well - they happened so damn fast. It was just unfortunate that this game was in the middle pitch of three and I could only stand at either goal end, I chose this one as the other would have meant shooting into the sun, so at this particular time, with other photographers and spectators, I could only see the goal from behind the net, I couldn't get to the side:



I like this save shot as well, not bad for a drummer who just nearly broke his wrist in a heavy fall - this was actually a penalty he saved.



--
So many photos, so little time . . .
http://www.peekaboo.me.uk - general portfolio & tutorials
http://www.boo-photos.co.uk - live music portfolio
http://imageevent.com/boophotos/ - most recent images

Please do not amend and re-post my images unless specifically requested or given permission to do so.

How does the subject title, Can one of the girls post soccer pics? [P], relate. I can be a little slow....

. http://pages.quicksilver.net.nz/oberto/gallery/

Boo said:

Thank you kindly, I was beginning to think I was unique on this.
I'm not sure why the discussion has had to turn so nasty and
personal about it though, it would be nice if my different
perspective could just be recognised, accepted, and then respected

• and my request for the image to be removed, honoured.

Click to expand...

You are not unique...maybe it's just us "fashionably 40ish ladies" though ;-)
It's something I feel very strongly about.

I would not go into someone elses house and re-arrange their furniture just cos I think it might look better another way. Would you? That would be rude!

I would not get into someone elses car and change the music on their stereo to something more to my liking.....that would also be rude.

I too, cannot believe the re-worked photo is still there. To be honest, I like the original better. You say the day was hot and sunny...the photo, complete with dark shadows, shows that. Why would you want faded shadows?

I'm happy for you that your clients liked the images. That's all that matters....and they look like they had a blast!

Gayle
--

'We don't make a photograph with just a camera. We bring to the act of photography all the books we have read, the movies we have seen, the music we have heard and the people we have loved.' Ansel Adams



http://shot2shot.no-ip.com

jarobe said:

How does the subject title, Can one of the girls post soccer pics?
[P], relate. I can be a little slow....

Click to expand...

Because there are very regular soccer photography themes here, nearly always at least one soccer thread on the front page and always seemingly posted by the chaps and the discussions are largely male dominated - as is the general demographic of the forum. I just wondered if it was okay if one of the girls (that being me) could muscle in on their soccer photography territory.

It was a pathetic attempt at a school girl type of "please can I join in the boys' games" attempt to be vaguely amusing.

It obviously didn't work, sorry!

--
So many photos, so little time . . .
http://www.peekaboo.me.uk - general portfolio & tutorials
http://www.boo-photos.co.uk - live music portfolio
http://imageevent.com/boophotos/ - most recent images

Please do not amend and re-post my images unless specifically requested or given permission to do so.

Boo said:

My brief was also not to necessarily secure dramatic sporting
shots, any I did like that (some of those posted here) were for my
own amusement, but to record the event for the band's web site and
for the band to have a record themselves - so most of the end
viewers are more interested in whether the bass player has cute
knees than my potential prowess as a sports photographer

Click to expand...

I know this too well. I have 14 year old Daughter who is into looking out any 'cute' boys, and for 'boys' read anything with trousers on!

Thankfully our 16 year old Daughter is heavy into exams - keeps her quiet, just for the moment.

Woodie.

Boo said:

jarobe said:

How does the subject title, Can one of the girls post soccer pics?
[P], relate. I can be a little slow....

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

You're not the only one! I had to re-read and eventually the penny dropped! One of the girls? Where's the girls? Ah, I see now. Don't worry Boo, it can be a male thing - I'll own up for the rest of mankind we can be bl* dy slow on the uptake sometimes!

And, should any male forum members want to dis-agree with my last remark, forget it guys - we're out-gunned - I have two Daughters who, when the moment is right can out-manouvre any male on this planet!!!!

Woodie.

..and it bears remarkable resemblance to US law, as well it should since it was widely collaborated on. "Fair Dealing" also refers to the use, without permission, of a copyrighted work for the purposes of "criticism or review". The spirit of what was done very clearly, without the aid of a lawyer, fell soundly inside the bounds of fair dealing.

Unfortunately, the response to this use was "not polite" and the response to the response was "not polite" and here we find ourselves in a holy war over copyprotection and from what I see BOTH parties are "in the wrong". One for claiming a violation of a copyright protection which didn't occur and the other for not gracefully disagreeing and then simply removing the work and moving on.

Hoping for good weather here this weekend.. looking like thunderstorms, though. I might have to envy your soccer pics for another long week before I get the chance to take a crack at my own next weekend. =)

Respectfully,

icmp

Boo said:

As for fair use, that would be for a lawyer to decide - and don't
forget, you're spouting US copyright law, as I'm in England and the
image was created here, it is English law that presides in this
instance under the terms of the Berne Convention, so US copyright
legislation is wholly irrelevant.

Click to expand...

I wonder ?

Volker Lauterbach said:

I wonder ?

Click to expand...

Amongst other things I do for them, I manage a section of their official web site, my section is at http://www.goodsouls.org.uk - the full set of approved photos are on there with a report now. The main site is at http://www.starsailor.net

--
So many photos, so little time . . .
http://www.peekaboo.me.uk - general portfolio & tutorials
http://www.boo-photos.co.uk - live music portfolio
http://imageevent.com/boophotos/ - most recent images

Please do not amend and re-post my images unless specifically requested or given permission to do so.