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The fix for Red colors for MKII, found it tonight

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Dixter

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By playing around tonight I found that I could make the MKII mess up red
color. And I did it simply by adjusting a few parameters in the in-camera
menu and shooting RAW. And I should say that I also adjusted the same
parameters and could easily fix the red problem that I created.....

I would suggest that all that shoot RAW should fine tune your camera to
the way you want it to shoot the colors correctly. I would start out by
changing the " parameter " and the " color matrix " to have all settings
neutral and then adjust from there to your liking....

here is more info and a couple of examples of oversaturated reds and understaturated reds... So I know the camera can be set up correctly,
just going to take us some work to get it right.... here are the examples
at FM.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/96774/0#773952
 
Dixter said:
By playing around tonight I found that I could make the MKII mess
up red
color. And I did it simply by adjusting a few parameters in the
in-camera
menu and shooting RAW. And I should say that I also adjusted the
same
parameters and could easily fix the red problem that I created.....

I would suggest that all that shoot RAW should fine tune your
camera to
the way you want it to shoot the colors correctly. I would start
out by
changing the " parameter " and the " color matrix " to have all
settings
neutral and then adjust from there to your liking....

here is more info and a couple of examples of oversaturated reds
and understaturated reds... So I know the camera can be set up
correctly,
just going to take us some work to get it right.... here are the
examples
at FM.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/96774/0#773952
Click to expand...
--
Jim
http://www.artbeacon.com/jmg-galleries/
 
No Dixter, BAD DIXTER...

These parameters DO NOT, wait, where's my caps lock button, ah - here;

DO FRIKKIN NOT

affect the capture of RAW files. These parameters ARE TAGGED in the files and used to display the PREVIEWS and initial PROCESSING PARAMETERS in EVU. The PROCESSING PARAMETERS in EVU apply the SAME ALGORITHMS to RAW file when converting to JPG, as the CAMERA WOULD if you were converting to JPG IN CAMERA.

Do you think that Canon simply "forgot" to tell Chuck Westfall that they CHANGED the way RAW works in the MarkII?

You are stating what you "perceive" to be fact, based on FLAWED LOGIC.

When I was attending Electronics School in the Navy, they used to say "Ground Is Ground, The World Around", to indicate that "earth ground" was EXACTLY THE SAME ANYWHERE.

The same applied to RAW and the Canon line of cameras.

RAW IS RAW... PERIOD .

While forced to be a little more polite and perfessional-like on RG's site, I can let a little more hang out here. This is NOT one of the times that Teski can mark his calendar because I'm WRONG...

Rick
Dixter said:
By playing around tonight I found that I could make the MKII mess
up red
color. And I did it simply by adjusting a few parameters in the
in-camera
menu and shooting RAW. And I should say that I also adjusted the
same
parameters and could easily fix the red problem that I created.....

I would suggest that all that shoot RAW should fine tune your
camera to
the way you want it to shoot the colors correctly. I would start
out by
changing the " parameter " and the " color matrix " to have all
settings
neutral and then adjust from there to your liking....

here is more info and a couple of examples of oversaturated reds
and understaturated reds... So I know the camera can be set up
correctly,
just going to take us some work to get it right.... here are the
examples
at FM.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/96774/0#773952
Click to expand...
 
The parameters do not change the basic data, BUT, they do change the tags with the result that the first image you see on the computer, without manipulating it, is different.

If you want to get down to the bit level of the file and you do a compare of two files with parameters changed they will be not be the same.

Rudi
RickS said:
These parameters DO NOT, wait, where's my caps lock button, ah - here;

DO FRIKKIN NOT

affect the capture of RAW files. These parameters ARE TAGGED in
the files and used to display the PREVIEWS and initial PROCESSING
PARAMETERS in EVU. The PROCESSING PARAMETERS in EVU apply the SAME
ALGORITHMS to RAW file when converting to JPG, as the CAMERA WOULD
if you were converting to JPG IN CAMERA.

Do you think that Canon simply "forgot" to tell Chuck Westfall that
they CHANGED the way RAW works in the MarkII?

You are stating what you "perceive" to be fact, based on FLAWED LOGIC.

When I was attending Electronics School in the Navy, they used to
say "Ground Is Ground, The World Around", to indicate that "earth
ground" was EXACTLY THE SAME ANYWHERE.

The same applied to RAW and the Canon line of cameras.

RAW IS RAW... PERIOD .
period.

While forced to be a little more polite and perfessional-like on
RG's site, I can let a little more hang out here. This is NOT one
of the times that Teski can mark his calendar because I'm WRONG...

Rick
Dixter said:
By playing around tonight I found that I could make the MKII mess
up red
color. And I did it simply by adjusting a few parameters in the
in-camera
menu and shooting RAW. And I should say that I also adjusted the
same
parameters and could easily fix the red problem that I created.....

I would suggest that all that shoot RAW should fine tune your
camera to
the way you want it to shoot the colors correctly. I would start
out by
changing the " parameter " and the " color matrix " to have all
settings
neutral and then adjust from there to your liking....

here is more info and a couple of examples of oversaturated reds
and understaturated reds... So I know the camera can be set up
correctly,
just going to take us some work to get it right.... here are the
examples
at FM.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/96774/0#773952
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
The RAW file is unaffected. Only the conversion software is "confused" by the in-camera settings. Use the PS converter and you'll see. This is precisely why I always shoot RAW and have fewer worries.
Malcolm
 
Thanks Malcolm...

I was SERIOUSLY CONFUSED about this aspect of RAW when I started shooting the 10D a year ago. I asked this question 50 different ways on RG - thought Chuck was going to put me on his "ignore list" (a capability I wish Phils bbs s/w had, so I could put a few posters here on it).

I did the same thing in a thread there on 4/26, and the answer was the same. The ONLY DATA CHANGED in the RAW file, by custom processing parameters, is the EXTENDED EXIF DATA (not IMAGE DATA), which is used by some software (EVU) to "pre-process" the RAW data IN THE PROGRAM (and subsequent converted saves if you don't change any of the parameters in the tool tray).

Sharpness
Color Matrix
Contrast
Saturation

essentially ALL the settings on the tool tray in EVU, are NOT APPLIED to RAW data coming off the sensor.

Rick
Malcolm said:
The RAW file is unaffected. Only the conversion software is
"confused" by the in-camera settings. Use the PS converter and
you'll see. This is precisely why I always shoot RAW and have
fewer worries.
Malcolm
Click to expand...
 
Well a little more playing around with the original RAW photos of the flower....

It seems that the Canon Software " EOS Viewer " accepts the in-camera settings as " tags " and it will display the picture and convert the picture to the settings unless you change them...

The same RAW pictures were open'd in DPP and the in-camera settings did not affect the display'd or converted image.

I don't know why Canon did this but I think one could use it to an advantage if you decided you wanted to bias the picture one way or the other without you having to set the settings after the picture was taken.....

So, What have I learned from this exercise Just be careful when or if you use EOS Viewer to process a RAW picture as it will already have processed the image to the in-camera settings.

One good thing about this, for those that like to shoot JPG. Now all you have to do is set the in-camera settings to the neutral positions, take a RAW picture bring it into the EOS viewer and you can play with the settings to find which settings you want to set the camera to and just set the camera. The next time you shoot JPG the camera will convert the JPG file for the in-camera settings.
 
Geez, Dixter, I don't want to be picky, but I want to save you and others a boatload of trouble.

When you try to adjust any global settings based on one or two--or a dozen pictures--the only thing you'll accomplish is to get ever farther from accurate color.

Making an accurate color profile is tough enough for guys like Magne Nilsen who not only have the knowledge and equipment, but years of exerience.

The only way to do this accurately "at home" is to buy expensive and complex software and profile your individual camera. This will be done to a standard, individually measured color chart. When you are all done, Magne(or C-1, etc) will have released his/their MkII profile and you'd probably wind up throwing the one you spent all the time on--out. (I know I did!)

Adjust each individual picture as you see fit. Just don't use those settings as if they were a "profile".
Tom
Dixter said:
Well a little more playing around with the original RAW photos of
the flower....

It seems that the Canon Software " EOS Viewer " accepts the
in-camera settings as " tags " and it will display the picture and
convert the picture to the settings unless you change them...

The same RAW pictures were open'd in DPP and the in-camera settings
did not affect the display'd or converted image.

I don't know why Canon did this but I think one could use it to an
advantage if you decided you wanted to bias the picture one way or
the other without you having to set the settings after the picture
was taken.....

So, What have I learned from this exercise Just be careful when or
if you use EOS Viewer to process a RAW picture as it will already
have processed the image to the in-camera settings.

One good thing about this, for those that like to shoot JPG. Now
all you have to do is set the in-camera settings to the neutral
positions, take a RAW picture bring it into the EOS viewer and you
can play with the settings to find which settings you want to set
the camera to and just set the camera. The next time you shoot JPG
the camera will convert the JPG file for the in-camera settings.
Click to expand...
 
Tom Melanson said:
Geez, Dixter, I don't want to be picky, but I want to save you and
others a boatload of trouble.
Click to expand...
Thanx Tom, but I was talking about the in-camera JPG processing...

The custom curves you are talking about ( and they are good ) are
for RAW pictures...

later
 
At least it does for me. There may be ways of getting CS to recognize the in-camera settings, but I always start with an unadulterated file. This means more work, which many loathe, but this is the way I avoid all the headaches that so many complain about. Blown reds? Never.

This is a camera designed for professionals. There are many better cameras and processing workflows for those who do not wish to spend the time and effort to make their images what they want in post. Sure, there are always a small percentage of true hardware or firmware issues with any camera. So far (and for me this is with less than 1000 images so far) I haven't found a single image problem that wasn't mostly my fault. This is a lot of camera to learn and I am loving every minute of it!

Malcolm
Craig Jacobsen said:
So I take it from your comments that Canon's RAW processor picks up
the in camera settings, but does PS CS raw converter pick up my in
camera settings or am I starting from a basic RAW image when the CS
RAW converter first opens my image??
Malcolm said:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/u-raw-files.shtml
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Does the so called red problem come from shooting in Jpeg mode with wrong color settings?

Thanks
Steve
 
I have little experience with the in-camera settings. I shoot RAW plus small JPEG for quick view composition only. Once I bring the keepers into CS I spend as much time as required to get the results I need. I did not notice any red (or any other color) problems initially. The posts here made me a bit paranoid and I looked very carefully at a few shots and couldn't find anything that caused me or my clients a problem.

An example, a bit boring, is:

http://www.pbase.com/image/29205580/large

The shadow areas are a bit enhanced looking (noisy) on the screen but print fine. The reds and orange bits are perfect.

Malcolm
spersky said:
Does the so called red problem come from shooting in Jpeg mode with
wrong color settings?

Thanks
Steve
Click to expand...
 
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