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**The sad truth...2'nd try**

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Why not add a number to each image in the gallery then A1, A2 or something (use a letter so it doesn't get confused with the placing)?
Bill Huber said:
RichardR said:
****:)
Bill Huber said:
I think that we can just use the old in the thread vote and get by
very good.
What I was trying to do is make it a lot easier for the vote
counters to count the votes.
I know this sounds nuts but here it is....

People still type in the name of the image and do not type the
whole thing. The image names is "The Big Red Apple" they will type
the Red Apple. The sound dumb, but when you are putting the vote
down on 50 images and looking for the right one it makes a big
difference.

With the vote thread the counters have to enter each vote, the
thing I was trying to get away from.

But all in all it is not that big of a deal and I say go for the
new challenge, that is as long as it is something easy for me to
win......LOL

--
Bill Huber
Click to expand...
--
http://www.pbase.com/richardr
E-10&C-2100UZ&C-3000Z&D-40&D-380&Fuji2600Z
PBase Supporter
Click to expand...
--
Bill Huber
Click to expand...
 
Having experience in managing forums I'd say the email is set to allow all with the exclusion of hotmail, yahoo etc. It would be very unfair to allow only users of certain ISP's as this is an international forum. If it's run like the other forums I frequent then new domains are accepted at face value, but if the "tard" factor is raised unproportionally by users of a particular domain then the users are banned and it is added to the exclusion list. You're never going to find the perfect solution to this problem while some people seem to think trolling is a fun game to play, all you can do is try and manage it effectively. :)
Liquid_Thought said:
Michael Meissner said:
Liquid_Thought said:
It probably got deleted because it kind of is a pointed kind of
subject with negative impact. I realize that you are trying to find
a solution and that's all well and good, but it also feels a bit
trollish and probably because you were very unhappy with the whole
idea of people cheating in a contest to begin with.

I will make a suggestion though. Do what Phil does here and force
people to give a email address that is of a major ISP variety such
as comcast or aol. That way you greatly reduce the amount of new
email addresses most people would be willing to go through the
trouble to do. For instance, it's really easy to make 100 yahoo
accounts.
Click to expand...
Ummm, if you made that rule, it would certainly knock me out. I
maintain my own domain (the-meissners.org) with mail service via a
small hosting company (webmasters.com). Those ISPs do not meet my
needs, so I don't use them. I haven't used dialup in months, and
when I did, I used a small ISP. I notice Bill Huber also uses a
vanity domain.
Liquid_Thought said:
You might say, well that doesn't seem fair to the people who don't
have AOL. Or that people with major account ISPs can still make 5
email accounts. But it will still be less damage.
Click to expand...
In other words, I should pay $10-20/month just to enter a photo
contest. No thank you.
Liquid_Thought said:
The other thing you could do is make it so people could only vote
if they had a DPReview account and they were active posters. That
would certainly limit the problem.

Do them both and the issue should be lessened to the point that it
isn't really a problem anymore.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
My $.02 (by the way, when did they stop putting the "cents" sign on keyboards?)

I think the Challenge period needs to include 4 weekend days. I would be in favor of a shorter voting period.

I find that I spend a lot of time thinking about the challenge as I drive around or go about my day, taking ideas from the things I see. I have no doubt that process will make me a better photographer. Also, I dont usually have the time to actually shoot these ideas until the weekend.

I also vote to go back to the "open' voting by post. One vote per forum id.

Sean
Bill Huber said:
I think that we can just use the old in the thread vote and get by
very good.
What I was trying to do is make it a lot easier for the vote
counters to count the votes.
I know this sounds nuts but here it is....

People still type in the name of the image and do not type the
whole thing. The image names is "The Big Red Apple" they will type
the Red Apple. The sound dumb, but when you are putting the vote
down on 50 images and looking for the right one it makes a big
difference.

With the vote thread the counters have to enter each vote, the
thing I was trying to get away from.

But all in all it is not that big of a deal and I say go for the
new challenge, that is as long as it is something easy for me to
win......LOL

--
Bill Huber
Click to expand...
--
My wife said 'You're buying an UZI? not in my house!'
 
brock said:
I like the number suggestion as it removes bias, but it removes the
opportunity for the photographer to suggest something about the
shot and what they were trying to achieve.
Click to expand...
My understanding of the use of numbers was they would be in ADDITION to nay title, and used to make voting simple to tally. For example, you'd vote for:
10, 22, 8, 16, 12
as your top five pics instead of:
Mrning Dew
Yellow Tulipp
Greebn Grass
Dandylyon
Weedz

Odd spellings on purpose to indicate that people's typos and such make automated attempts at collecting votes from text virtually impossible, but you could easily cut/paste numbers into a file to import to a spreadsheet.
brock121199 said:
Using numbers as unique
identifiers would require the removal of EXIF data - something I
like to see in order to help understand how the shot was made and
to learn from it. Is there an easy way to add title, photographer
and EXIF data? The concern is any extra burden being placed on the
host/s.
Click to expand...
Ok, you lost me here. Why would using number require removing EXIF data? They seem totally unrelated. The first image to arrive at the designated E-mail address for entries gets assigned #1, the next one #2, etc. Where does EXIF come into it at all?

You wouldn't want to add the photographer's name to the EXIF data as that would eliminate the anonymity of the images prior to voting/results.
 
I could have phrased it better.

My assumption was based on the removing of information relating to the camera used under the picture as currently used. For example:

One-Eyed Toad
C5050z
EXIF data

becomes simply
  1. XX One-Eyed Toad
If the idea is to remove the camera type from the challenge gallery it follows that the EXIF data would have to go as well (I appreciate that EXIF is not always available). In that situation it would require a second step to add back the camera, photographer and EXIF after the results are posted. As I mentioned I like to see the EXIF data in order to learn from it.

I hope I've cleared up the confusion :-)

Paul
Inigo Montoya said:
brock said:
I like the number suggestion as it removes bias, but it removes the
opportunity for the photographer to suggest something about the
shot and what they were trying to achieve.
Click to expand...
My understanding of the use of numbers was they would be in
ADDITION to nay title, and used to make voting simple to tally.
For example, you'd vote for:
10, 22, 8, 16, 12
as your top five pics instead of:
Mrning Dew
Yellow Tulipp
Greebn Grass
Dandylyon
Weedz

Odd spellings on purpose to indicate that people's typos and such
make automated attempts at collecting votes from text virtually
impossible, but you could easily cut/paste numbers into a file to
import to a spreadsheet.
Inigo Montoya said:
Using numbers as unique
identifiers would require the removal of EXIF data - something I
like to see in order to help understand how the shot was made and
to learn from it. Is there an easy way to add title, photographer
and EXIF data? The concern is any extra burden being placed on the
host/s.
Click to expand...
Ok, you lost me here. Why would using number require removing EXIF
data? They seem totally unrelated. The first image to arrive at
the designated E-mail address for entries gets assigned #1, the
next one #2, etc. Where does EXIF come into it at all?

You wouldn't want to add the photographer's name to the EXIF data
as that would eliminate the anonymity of the images prior to
voting/results.
Click to expand...
 
Somewhere I missed the reference to wanting to hide the type of camera used for the shot. Anyone who'd vote for (or against) a particular image based on the model used needs a life. :-)
brock said:
I could have phrased it better.

My assumption was based on the removing of information relating to
the camera used under the picture as currently used. For example:

One-Eyed Toad
C5050z
EXIF data

becomes simply
  1. XX One-Eyed Toad
If the idea is to remove the camera type from the challenge gallery
it follows that the EXIF data would have to go as well (I
appreciate that EXIF is not always available). In that situation it
would require a second step to add back the camera, photographer
and EXIF after the results are posted. As I mentioned I like to see
the EXIF data in order to learn from it.

I hope I've cleared up the confusion :-)

Paul
Click to expand...
 
Inigo Montoya said:
Somewhere I missed the reference to wanting to hide the type of
camera used for the shot. Anyone who'd vote for (or against) a
particular image based on the model used needs a life. :-)
Click to expand...
Actually, I think some are quite fond of the camera that they use - just look at some of the threads that ask for a head count for a certain type of Oly cam. So I think the type of camera used should be hidden.
 
The sad truth about the Challenge 25 voting** thread got
knocked out.

I have sat here and read both postings and my thoughts led me to believe that although it truly is a sad state of affairs that the travesty happened, it turned into a feeding frenzy against "Anonymous Gripe" even though it was never proven who the guilty party was/is. Just speculation and innuendo. I must admit that I was a bit dismayed at the normally friendly atmosphere here turned into mob intelligence without prudence. Perhaps Phil decided the best way to control the situation was to remove the post ( maybe from someone calling his attention as to where it was headed at the time ).

If my thoughts on this are disquieting to some, I'm sorry but still stand by the old saying:
'Keep words soft and sweet,
for you never know when you'll have to eat them!'

Again... I do not in any way condone what took place, but to assume who did it and attack without proof is not an acceptable act either.

Regards,
Mickey
-- A PICTURE IS WORTH A 1000 WORDS,
but it uses up 1000 times the memory.--
--And it's harder to spellcheck!--
 
The sad truth is that there has been controversy in the challenges since day 1. What some members don’t seem to understand is that the challenges should be treated as a learning tool. El-see, aka autumnsky, aka Leo started the challenges as a way to learn about the specific topics as they relate to photography (or about photography as it relates to the specific topic :o). The competition came naturally. The original intent was, in my opinion, to learn from others how they interpreted and displayed the subject…to learn from others what MAY make the rest of us better photographers. The silly thing is that we always seemed to concentrate and scrutinize everything but what makes the favorite photo great. The voting…who’s cheating…who didn’t post the proper size…who didn’t post at the right time…blah blah blah blah blah blah

It’s silly, really. In the latest challenge, RichardR posted an incredible photo conveying the subject of the challenge. What we should be discussing is his thought process as he shot the photo…his intent, his camera settings, his composition, his processing…AND LEARN FROM IT!

Instead we argue, throw blame, disagree, accuse cheaters, and post threads about the difficulties of the challenge host. Well what else is new? It’s not easy to host a challenge, but I don’t believe for a second that anyone that has done it would say it isn’t gratifying experience. After all, the host sees all the photos first hand, has an opportunity for correspondence with every member that enters, and sees first hand how the challenge progresses. I know it’s a lot of work and I’d be the first to admit that coming in second is the REAL prize, but the opportunity to host is awesome. I commented long ago that the challenges should be run by a team after 3dtim and I ran a challenge together (much easier to do with a partner!)…seems now that Huber is a permanent fixture for that, and that may well be the way he likes it. I know it takes an incredible amount of time and effort.

As for the voting…IMO I would just accept votes from members of the forum that have been active since the challenge announcement. If that requires voting in a forum thread, then so be it. If it can be tracked on an off-site voting ballot, than that’s fine also. Remember though, that the nice thing about voting in a forum thread is that everyone that wants to can keep track of the votes (not just a select few)…multiple checks and balances :o)

Ok. The above is of course just my opinion. I know I haven’t been active on the forum for a while, and a lot of the current members don’t know who the heck I am. My apologies for the absence…been goin’ through some hard times here at the homestead. Just know my intent is sincere…

Kathy
 
the reason for the deletion of this original thread:
Trond N said:
And here's the text from the previous thread (Except my personal
feelings about this at the end, in case that triggered the deletion
of the thread):
Click to expand...
Trond's ending of that (original) post was a tad strong--he not only used the words, 'p* ed off' but, in capital letters.
That's my hunch, on the deletion of that thread...FWIW ;-)

And, BTW...I'm not putting you down (Trond--if you read this :) by stating my hunch...I simply was trying to get into Phil's mind-set when he decided to have that thread deleted.
Trond: You're still our favorite Viking :-)

--
Jim K...UZI'ing, & UZing (c-7oo), just outside Detroit, MI...US of A
http://www.pbase.com/jkorsog ...Pbase supporter
http://jimk.instantlogic.com/
 
I agree 100%.......

The challenge should be a self challenge, one thats helps you become better at using your equipment and skills.

There is one thing that I really miss, and that is someone telling me that the shot is ok but could be better if I did something different.

When Leo started the challenges he did most of the work and that was fine, and then when he left someone had to do it and I had been working with him so thats how I got the job. My only worry is if we just let it go like it was on the last site we could loose it again like we did last time.
So someone has to take the bull by the horns and keep it from getting away.

--
Bill Huber
 
But why couldn't Phil give me a note, explaining this? I asked him politely to give me the reason, so I could avoid this from happening in the future.

I have enormous respect for Phil and the work he has done, and I fully understand he has to prioritize his time. But still it would be nice to know why...
MotorCityJim said:
And, BTW...I'm not putting you down (Trond--if you read this :)
by stating my hunch...I simply was trying to get into Phil's
mind-set when he decided to have that thread deleted.
Trond: You're still our favorite Viking :-)
Click to expand...
LOL! Don't worry Jim. I'm thick-skinned, and at one point I stated that I hoped this thread would bring up some straight from the heart replys.

Thanks for your thoughts!

--
TrondN 'The Frozen Viking'
C730UZ + Raynox DCR-1540 Pro, DCR-6600 Pro, DCR-250 and Promaster 5750DX
http://www.home.no/trond-nordland



Comments, criticism and suggestions always appreciated.
 
Dear Kathy!
I for one have been around long enough to know who you are :)

I totally agree with you when it comes to the focus and target of the challenges. And imo we should stribe to keep it this way. But my concern is if the challenges get sabotaged like this, people will give up hosting them.

And what the discussion of ****'s excellent photo concern (and the others for that matter)... Well, that's why this issue wasn't part of the Challenge 25 Winners thread. I discussed this with Christie (the 25 host), and we agreed to keep this out of that thread to keep focus on the pictures.

It's also a little symptomatic that if you post a picture you get only a few replies telling you the picture is nice, but like Bill stated not much constructive criticism. If the picture isn't nice, you get fewer replies (still telling you the picture is nice :-)). But if you shake things up a bit, like this thread, people wake up from hibernation, and get engaged.

I believe sometimes we, like any other community or famliy, need to clear the air some.

My intention is to let the members know what goes on behind the scene, and try to keep this from happening in the future. Hopefully we can focus on the thing that matter in the future, and be able to study the pictures and chat with the photographers, insted of spending most of the challenge time to filter out the BS.

Hopefully something good will come out of this. And if someone is offended I hope they accept my apology.

--
TrondN 'The Frozen Viking'
C730UZ + Raynox DCR-1540 Pro, DCR-6600 Pro, DCR-250 and Promaster 5750DX
http://www.home.no/trond-nordland



Comments, criticism and suggestions always appreciated.
 
ravenduff said:
The sad truth is that there has been controversy in the challenges
since day 1. What some members don’t seem to understand is that the
challenges should be treated as a learning tool. El-see, aka
autumnsky, aka Leo started the challenges as a way to learn about
the specific topics as they relate to photography (or about
photography as it relates to the specific topic :o). The
competition came naturally. The original intent was, in my opinion,
to learn from others how they interpreted and displayed the
subject…to learn from others what MAY make the rest of us better
photographers. The silly thing is that we always seemed to
concentrate and scrutinize everything but what makes the favorite
photo great. The voting…who’s cheating…who didn’t post the proper
size…who didn’t post at the right time…blah blah blah blah blah blah

It’s silly, really. In the latest challenge, RichardR posted an
incredible photo conveying the subject of the challenge. What we
should be discussing is his thought process as he shot the
photo…his intent, his camera settings, his composition, his
processing…AND LEARN FROM IT!

Instead we argue, throw blame, disagree, accuse cheaters, and post
threads about the difficulties of the challenge host. Well what
else is new? It’s not easy to host a challenge, but I don’t believe
for a second that anyone that has done it would say it isn’t
gratifying experience. After all, the host sees all the photos
first hand, has an opportunity for correspondence with every member
that enters, and sees first hand how the challenge progresses. I
know it’s a lot of work and I’d be the first to admit that coming
in second is the REAL prize, but the opportunity to host is
awesome. I commented long ago that the challenges should be run by
a team after 3dtim and I ran a challenge together (much easier to
do with a partner!)…seems now that Huber is a permanent fixture for
that, and that may well be the way he likes it. I know it takes an
incredible amount of time and effort.

As for the voting…IMO I would just accept votes from members of the
forum that have been active since the challenge announcement. If
that requires voting in a forum thread, then so be it. If it can be
tracked on an off-site voting ballot, than that’s fine also.
Remember though, that the nice thing about voting in a forum thread
is that everyone that wants to can keep track of the votes (not
just a select few)…multiple checks and balances :o)

Ok. The above is of course just my opinion. I know I haven’t been
active on the forum for a while, and a lot of the current members
don’t know who the heck I am. My apologies for the absence…been
goin’ through some hard times here at the homestead. Just know my
intent is sincere…

Kathy
Click to expand...
 
Unfortunately I didn't get the chance to read the thread. I posted it and went to bed, and in the morning I was told it got knocked out.

If it tuned into a manhunt, accusing someone by name for sabotaging the voting, it is truly pitiable. This was not my intent.

--
TrondN 'The Frozen Viking'
C730UZ + Raynox DCR-1540 Pro, DCR-6600 Pro, DCR-250 and Promaster 5750DX
http://www.home.no/trond-nordland



Comments, criticism and suggestions always appreciated.
 
I have absolutely no doubt that it was not your intention knowing you as I have come to. It appeared to be escalating towards putting the blame on whomever Anonymous Gripe may be, and may well be the reason it was pulled ( as of now only Phil knows for sure ). I really can't believe it was on account of your statement of feeling as I have seen much worse on the forum and it remained.

Hopefully the unfortunate incident will never happen again and the OTF can return to being the smoothest, self disciplined forum on dpreview.

Cheers my friend!
Mickey
-- A PICTURE IS WORTH A 1000 WORDS,
but it uses up 1000 times the memory.--
--And it's harder to spellcheck!--
 
christie2003 said:
Thanks for stepping up to the plate with this one.
Click to expand...
No problem. As you know, I felt this needed to be discussed...and now it has :)
christie2003 said:
Let's move forward but more importantly, let's have FUN again!
Click to expand...
Agree. And now get ready for Ch. 26. It sounds like a big challenge.

--
TrondN 'The Frozen Viking'
C730UZ + Raynox DCR-1540 Pro, DCR-6600 Pro, DCR-250 and Promaster 5750DX
http://www.home.no/trond-nordland



Comments, criticism and suggestions always appreciated.
 
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