Sharper results with no sharpening than with auto. Why?

I'll just add to some of what you provided.
....if you set your settings
initially such as to contrast low the camera reacts better in
keeping the highlights in check. Someone else here can likely
expand upon this better.
Okay this is where dynamic range comes into play, basically the dynamic range of the image tells you how many fine slots for color the image is capable*(note that doesn't mean that it actually uses all the slots for distinct colors!) of retaining. Slots for colors and actual number of colors representable (the gamut) in the scene are two different things. This is a subtle difference between dynamic range and the color gamut of the image (such as sRGB or AdobeRGB) but one that we must understand to figure out why getting image attributes like exposure (obviously) and white balance(most importantly) accurate in the body is important even when shooting NEF.

First, accurate exposure places the relative luminosity of all the hue elements in the image right inside the range of the available dynamic range of the sensor. So think of this as what an artist does when he/she selects the colors that will go in his/her palette prior to starting a painting, if the artist is doing a portrait and chooses colors in the green range for his available palette slots, nothing about the skill of the painter can recover a color "balanced" painting from that palette. (he/she would have to remove some green and add flesh oriented hue's to be able to paint a life like shot) The analogy breaks down in that a real artist can add black and white to their palette and create enough contrast in the greenish tones through mixing to create similar colors with different luminosity, but still the number of mixed splotches on the palette is limited to its size(number of slots).

The contrast setting is intimately tied to exposure, it tells how much importance to give to dark or light values per pixel. If contrast is high the slots tend to be filled with a sampling of hues across the range available from the gamut. (Which usually yields sudden transitions in hue and luminosity) If contrast is low, an attempt is made to represent as many hues in the scene as possible that can be represented by the gamut. (which usually yields "flat" looking images but retain detail in transitions)

The camera does not distinguish between luminosity and chrominance, some colors are brighter than others but the fixed dynamic range of the sensor can only accomodate so many values. This makes it important to get the relative luminosity of pixels in the image near enough to the actual luminosity presented in the scene, it increases the likelyhood you can extract a [more]balanced image in post processing. If you choose the wrong exposure, say too dark or too light you are saying to the camera "use your dynamic range to represent what I am showing you", if you severely underexposed the image the camera will oblige by filling it's slots with dark hues, if you overexposed it will fill the slots with light hues. Either way, you have precious few slots remaining to hold hues that were important to the scene being visaged but not considered by the exposure and consequently have less or no leeway for recovering the relative proportion of those hues (many will be missing outright) in the image in post processing.

The user defined WB setting basically allows the real world hue values represented by the sensor to fit neatly into the dynamic range of the sensor. It tells the camera "the colors in the scene are in this general hue range, fill your slots with colors from this range". Note the actual colors selected come from the specified gamut or color space, the gamut is much larger than the number of available slots!(the dynamic range) Just as an artists palette is restricted in physical size and this restricts the number of inks he/she can choose to include on that palette but not the actual ink which is restricted by the gamut. Note if your scene includes colors that your gamut doesn't map then you may get clipping or posterization in the affected color channel. For example, using sRGB for landscapes to shoot portraits will not optimize use of the cameras dynamic range, since you'll be starting with a set of inks (back to artist analogy) that don't match well the colors that exist(flesh tones) in the scene you'd like to represent. Can the image come out fine, sure outwardly, but if you are pushed to the limits of post processing the bad choice of gamut for the imaged scene may restrict your ability to optimize the image.

[continued: next post]
 
[links continued from last post..]

A very important element that I didn't mention outright but that effects useable dynamic range and how exposure,contrast and WB are related is noise. Noise increases the chance that the final color generated by the camera to represent a pixel is not accurate, a good portion of the cameras attempts to map colors in the palette to the scene are inaccurate. There is a probabilistic behavior between the color of light that impinges a photosite and the actual color represented in the image, this varies with ambient heat, size of photosite area, selected ISO value (signal amplification) and a more esoteric term "quantum efficiency" (how consistently the sensor can represent the color of light hitting it's photosites) All these factors increase the chance that the colors chosen to fill the "slots" are not ones that match the scene in relative hue or luminosity, reducing further it's ability to accurately represent the scene..or if post processed, allow for recovery without exacerbating the existing inaccuracies. There is a lot more too this, we haven't discussed the importance of a properly balanced monitor or of the merits of editing RAW files in a high bit space(like 16bit). It should make sense that if your monitor is not calibrated correctly you may be "fixing" already perfect exposures, or making bad exposures that "look" good, even worse. Monitor calibration is very important to making sure that what you see on screen translates to prints. I tried my best, hope I didn't confuse any one in the process. Many of the links below are a bit more eloquent than I was above!

Links:

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/digital-camera.htm (a good writeup with animations that visually illustrate dynamic range)

http://www.shortcourses.com/editing/edit-14.htm

http://www.scantips.com/basics14.html (features scanners but directly applicable to digital cameras, very clear.)

http://www.computer-darkroom.com/16bit/16bit_1.htm (merits of high bit editing)

http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/color_spaces.htm (little on color space)

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/corp/researchDevelopment/technologyFeatures/gamut.shtml (on gamuts of various display and print devices)

http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/12641.html (relating gamut to rendered intent)

http://www.cs.mtu.edu/~shene/DigiCam/User-Guide/990/EXPOSURE/EV-overview.html (what is exposure, very thorough)

http://www.wpdfd.com/wpdgamma.htm (simple self gamma calibration page)

http://www.cgsd.com/papers/gamma_intro.html (gamma)

Ok, I am fresh out of links on the subject! ;)

Regards,

--

 
Thanks again David for taking the time to explain this in detail. Will probably take me awhile to absorb it!

Cassandra
 
If so, I must have been hallucinating last night
when I saw better results sharpening in PS from the unsharpen
setting than from the auto setting, because my D70 has yet to be
sullied by producing a JPG image.
I think you lost me there, you stated that you saw better results
in post using USM then in camera using AUTO correct? If so then we
are in agreement.
Here's what a did. I took two shots, one with Auto and one with no in-camera sharpening. Then in PS I sharpened them both an identical amount. The one that wasn't sharpened in the camera turned out sharper than the one that was auto-sharpened in the camera. So that one that was sharpened twice wasn't as sharp as the one that was sharpened once.

--
FJP
 
Did you try adjusting the sharpening on both images 'to
taste' and comparing them.
No, I did not. I was only interested in seeing what would happened when I sharpened with the same parameters on an image sharpened internally with Auto (which of course you really don't know what the camera did) and an image with no internal sharpening.
You should be able to get the same
results on both """"IF""" the auto-sharpening or in camera
sharpening didn't over sharpen.
I've taken several hundred landscapes with Auto turned on in the camera, unbeknownst to me. They all benefited from sharpening, some more than others, so I don't think the camera is EVER over sharpening. Most required 90, .9, 1 to get where I wanted to go. But a few required 80, .8, 1 and once in a while 70, .7, 1. Only when the camera (very rarely -- about 1 out of 50 images) missed the focus did I go above a strength of 90 to 100 and of course the results weren't entirely satisfactory, but not too bad.
PS - I do use Auto WB, but I almost always tweek it during processing.
Me, too. I've found white balancing a weakness of the D70, so might as well run Auto. PS fixes things up fast, even with a radical color shift like you get in a rain forest gorge on a sunny day where the blue light from the sky filters through green foliage, just about the most horrible lighting imaginable. PS does a splendid job even in that case, where the in-camera whiite balancing falls down utterly. Shows you that the raw image has enough raw data there to correct even what appears to be a mess.

--
FJP
 
This is a really informative thread, thanks to everyone contributing. I've been struggling with the sharpening concept for the last week or so. This is a big help.
 
WOW!

So much for a quick and dirty turn key formula....

It was kind of you to reply in such detail. I was just getting brave enough to stick my toe into the processing pool. I didn't know it was so deep.

I think I am in the kiddie pool...

Do you give lessons?

Thanks!

Linda
Are there any beginner rule of thumbs numbers and passes for
sharpening for each of the three settings...?
LOL, we wish it could be so simple!

The problem is that each generic class of subject matter would have
a very roughly defined set of "rules" and then in certain cases,
even within those, things might not work out. So really you have to
play around and determine what works for you considering the types
of images you take, and this "what works for you" is determined by
good old trail and error.

I'll give my example method, but this is what I've found works for me.
I shoot people in the studio, quite a bit of it 1/2, 3/4 and full
length.

I shoot raw, and quite often I set "medium high" sharpening in
Capture with maybe even a small amount of USM applied in capture:
amount of 20, radius 1, threshold 0, let's say. This, FOR MY
SUBJECT MATTER, seems to get past the initial fuzzies and the
subject looks "almost sharp". Then I take the image into TIF of
course, open it up in photoshop CS and I go from there. I do tend
to sharpen on a duplicate layer and then mask what I don't want
sharpened. (I actually do some NR with Neatimage first). So if I'm
shooting against a darkbackground, I might apply a USM of 69/.8/0,
fade to luminosity, and then look around for obviously disturbing
sharpening halos at 100%. If I find some, I mask those out on a
layer mask I've set up. I often mask out any non-essential
background so I don't pick up any of the noise I just got rid of
with NeatImage. At this point my goal is to have a uniformly
"sharp" picture. I print on inkjet, so I know I have to slightly
bump a few areas to get a nice crisp look, so after saving a copy
of the file as an "in progress" file, I'll size to my final print
size, then flatten my layers and I'll do another duplicate layer
and apply a tiny bit more USM to it, maybe something small like
25/.8/0, or 26/1/0, and then mask everything out except eyelashes,
hair, texture in jeans, things like that which require a bit of
"zip" to look good on a print. Again, I try to avoid obvious
sharpening halos.

But if I shoot against a different background (say, white, or
outdoors), my approach and my numbers in USM might be a bit
different. The thing is, anything that changes the size
relationships of your subject to background as well as the
color/contrast differences in the picture can be affected by your
sharpening. Hence, there really is no magic bullet where you just
set one figure and go from there... each image is it's own.

Take the time to play around and test. If you shoot people bribe
your wife with a nice dinner or flowers, your kids with junkfood or
clothes LOL, and experiment. If you shoot scenics, no bribery
necessary. The thing is that you need to get out there and shoot
the dickens out of the camera. You ain't paying for film, so shoot
away, experimenting with different incamera and post processing
settings until eventually you'll develop a sense of what works for
you and you'll get better at it.

This constant learning curve is what makes owners of DSLRs usually
better photographers, not only technically, but artistically,
because I firmly believe the more you shoot and experiment, the
better you become, both as an artist and as a technician.

(climbing down from soapbox, LOL)
  • m
 
By letting the camera sharpen then sharpen in PS you oversharpened
and introduced more noise.
I don't think so. Nothing was oversharpened anywhere.
Compare the the two without sharpening
the in camera sharpened one. I would like to know how this
comparison works. I am currently trying to decide between the D70
and D100, and would like to here what you have to say.
I'm at work and so can't do that right now. I'll take a look tonight.
Well, this is ridiculous. Before sharpening in Photoshop, the one that was auto-sharpened in the camera wasn't nearly as sharp as the one that wasn't sharpened at all in the camera. At least in this case, it appears that auto-sharpening made the image LESS sharp than the unsharpened image. It is no wonder that PS sharpening made the second image sharper than the first, since the second, unsharpened image, started out sharper than the first, auto-sharpened image. If this isn't an indictment of in-camera sharpening in the D70, I don't know what is.

--
FJP
 
Do you give lessons?
LOL, maybe someday, but not just yet.

If you are truly interested in advancing your craft in terms of post processing, the best suggestions I would have would be:

a) pick up some of the better photoshop books and dig in each night for a chapter, and then try to apply what you just read into/onto an image you've shot. From a sharpening perspective, I learned quite a bit from a chapter in Dan Margulis complicated but great book "Photoshop 6, the classic guide to color correction". You might find it funny that one of the better sharpening lessons comes from a book whose main purpose in life is CMYK color space curve work and channel blending, (and a very difficult book, I might add), but Dan really did a good job of explaining sharpening from a technical perspective. Other books on the "must read" list would be ones I always recommend: Barry Haynes "Photoshop CS Artistry" and Martin Evenings "Photoshop for Photographers". I'd say those two plus Margulis' book would be very helpful, although understand those three would equal a pretty huge plate of from the buffet of photoshop knowledge.

b) Check into a seminar/workshop. While I haven't taken any of these guys seminars, I hear a lot of good things about both Thom Hogan (who does produce a handy Nikon newsletter I subscribe to.. see http://www.bythom.com ) and Ron Reznick, who seems to be quite proficient technically. I have a feeling people who walk out of either of those two guys classes/sessions/seminars/workshops are quite different, technically, then when they walked in.

c) most importantly: shoot, shoot, shoot, then post process and experiment, and above all: TAKE NOTES of what you try. All the experimentation won't help if you don't know what you did last time. I'm gifted with a pretty accurate memory of what I do, but even I take notes on complicated images these days.

There really isn't any "easy" way to become a master at this stuff.... it pretty much boils down to experimentation, dedication, and a lot of plain old face time in front of photoshop as well as shooting time with the camera before one gets markedly better. And it never stops, each day I discover something new. I bet even the guys like Hogan and Reznick would say the same thing.

-m
 
I shoot i RAW so I don't have to decide sharpening when shooting. If You shoot JPEG the ebook 123di gives the following advice:

"... apply a "low" or "normal" in camera sharpening, because the sharpening is done before JPEG compression, while sharpening afterward will also make the 8x8 JPEG squares more visible..."

Regards
Sverre
 
The user defined WB setting basically allows the real world hue
values represented by the sensor to fit neatly into the dynamic
range of the sensor.
This one I do not understand in particular. How WB setting affects sensor data?

--
no text
 
Wow- you are something else!!!

Thank you for investing so heavily in these posts...

Great ideas and they have made my print file. I download posts that I want to make a permanent record of.

I have several off-line coaches who are also on the forums. One had the D100 and has the 10D, Rebel AND DIX. The other is incredible with the 707 and just got the 10D. Both more seasoned.

I have taken courses on exposure, composition, on line with Better Photo.com I learned a lot but wasn't sure that format would really work with PS. I have about 10 books--most are the PS for dummy type, others are more sophisticated. I just recently bought a CD.

I find it hard to follow some of this by learning on paper. My friend taught me to re-size so I could upload to the course site.

I have PS 2. but am about to get the newest full version from my daughter. She used to live with a graphic designer and I have offered to 'pay' for lessons. She dabbles in ad design.

I have PS PRO 7, ACDSee Jasc Aftershot, and Picassa.

I work for a large B-B newspaper chain with full production departments.

I have plenty of folks to ask, but I can't do it on company time. I travel a lot to each division but my visits are very tight and I don't have time to sit with one of our designers. That would be ideal...We even have professional
photographers on board.

I am grateful for the amazing suggestions and recommendations. I read Luminous Lamdscape, every site I can, magazines, e-Digital Photo, I have

The Digital Printing Handbook, Daly;Digital Photography, Bavister,Innova's disk;Digital Camera, Johnson;PS Elements Solutions, Aaland;Nat Geographics
Book, Digital Photos in a Snap, Probert and Cope.

I have none of those you mentioned so I will have to go out and get them.

I also hadn't thought of taking notes--though I have a sticky note on my screen with the few USM settings I have tried that have worked. I guess I thought they would work on 'everything'...I also wrote down some new ones to try from this thread of posts.

Again, you are a gem.

Linda
Do you give lessons?
LOL, maybe someday, but not just yet.

If you are truly interested in advancing your craft in terms of
post processing, the best suggestions I would have would be:

a) pick up some of the better photoshop books and dig in each night
for a chapter, and then try to apply what you just read into/onto
an image you've shot. From a sharpening perspective, I learned
quite a bit from a chapter in Dan Margulis complicated but great
book "Photoshop 6, the classic guide to color correction". You
might find it funny that one of the better sharpening lessons comes
from a book whose main purpose in life is CMYK color space curve
work and channel blending, (and a very difficult book, I might
add), but Dan really did a good job of explaining sharpening from a
technical perspective. Other books on the "must read" list would be
ones I always recommend: Barry Haynes "Photoshop CS Artistry" and
Martin Evenings "Photoshop for Photographers". I'd say those two
plus Margulis' book would be very helpful, although understand
those three would equal a pretty huge plate of from the buffet of
photoshop knowledge.

b) Check into a seminar/workshop. While I haven't taken any of
these guys seminars, I hear a lot of good things about both Thom
Hogan (who does produce a handy Nikon newsletter I subscribe to..
see http://www.bythom.com ) and Ron Reznick, who seems to be quite
proficient technically. I have a feeling people who walk out of
either of those two guys classes/sessions/seminars/workshops are
quite different, technically, then when they walked in.

c) most importantly: shoot, shoot, shoot, then post process and
experiment, and above all: TAKE NOTES of what you try. All the
experimentation won't help if you don't know what you did last
time. I'm gifted with a pretty accurate memory of what I do, but
even I take notes on complicated images these days.

There really isn't any "easy" way to become a master at this
stuff.... it pretty much boils down to experimentation, dedication,
and a lot of plain old face time in front of photoshop as well as
shooting time with the camera before one gets markedly better. And
it never stops, each day I discover something new. I bet even the
guys like Hogan and Reznick would say the same thing.

-m
 
Fascinating. Thanks for this tip about setting the Threshold and why.
Actually, that was about why the Radius should be small. Two schools of thought exist on Threshold, and I believe in School #1: 0. When you set a threshold, you're telling the sharpening tool NOT to sharpen some things. Basically, the thought is that you don't end up sharpening tonal ramps, such as skies. If you don't use noise reduction software, maybe that's a good idea. But before sharpening, I apply Neat Image NR, so I'm not worried about tonal ramps getting affected by the sharpening.

The reason I avoid thresholds is this: over years of processing images, I've found that using one puts in a sort of unseen boundary between some types of pixels. When you start doing other post processing work on that image (and I don't know a single publication that hasn't touched my "finished" images), edges start getting a wierd artifact in them.
So this sounds like you're suggesting sharpening in steps,
No, I wouldn't call it steps.
with
different parameters for each step, to get different effects. Is
this correct? But then your next statement seems to say that for
Nikon DSLRs you only need to sharpen once:
My
contention on the Nikon DSLRs has long been that you need to only
do a sharpening that removes the anti-aliasing effects initially
(the D100 requires more than the D70, as it anti-aliases more).
So I'm a little confused.
You missed the word "initially." Basic workflow outline:

1. Convert (no sharpening)
2. Noise reduce
3. Other color corrections, if needed
4. Clone out dust, if needed
5. Anti-aliasing Sharpening

When output type is known:

6. Resizing
7. Any final corrections and crops
8. Contrast management, in needed
9. Sharpening for output device

I have other workflows I use for specific types of work. For fully documented examples of workflow, see issues #5 and #6 of my newsletter.

--
Thom Hogan
author, Nikon Field Guide & Nikon Flash Guide
author, Complete Guides to the Nikon D100, D1, D1h, & D1x and Fujifilm S2
http://www.bythom.com
 
It sounds like you've got some people around who will help, which is a good thing.

I would definitely consider the move to Photoshop CS, if only for the vast resources available on Photoshop. (Plus, honestly, I don't think PSP 7 is really up to the task in many areas).

But really, it may come down to where you need some personalized instruction; people learn in different ways, and maybe it's been enough of the books for you, and I'd probably suggest taking a long look at one of Ron Reznick or Thom Hogans offerings. Thom tends to be booked up years in advance, so maybe check out Rons site (don't have the URL handy, sorry, but I'm sure you could search for it) and see what he's up to. This is based off many, many positive reviews I see from his workshops.

-m
 
Illiah, I felt that line was unclear, what I intended is that the WB chosen allows you to define a range of colors from the gamut, to define the final color values of pixels in the image after demozaicing. It doesn't affect the sensor data, the data is what it is, the WB basically maps the demoziaced value (which can be any hue that can be defined with the number of bits used in the ADC) into a subset of the gamut (sRGB,AdobeRGB,g-sRGB) that lies in the color temperature range of the selected WB setting. From a photographers perspective it allows you to choose which color from the gamut is considered "white" and then selects a slice of hues about that value from the gamut for generating the final pixel values after demozaicing. (that's a mouth full!) "Color temperature" or "grey point" are sometimes used(confusing to me) to define this selection of color range that occurs when you set WB. I feel the term "color temperature" is more convenient for dealing with digital images based on RGB bayer filters and gamuts since the RGB space doesn't have an explicit luminance component but I am sure some feel better with "grey point" which doesn't seem intuitive to me;)

Regards,
The user defined WB setting basically allows the real world hue
values represented by the sensor to fit neatly into the dynamic
range of the sensor.
This one I do not understand in particular. How WB setting affects
sensor data?

--
no text
--

 
Illiah, I felt that line was unclear, what I intended is that the
WB chosen allows you to define a range of colors from the gamut,
to define the final color values of pixels in the image after
demozaicing. It doesn't affect the sensor data, the data is what it
is, the WB basically maps the demoziaced value (which can be any
hue that can be defined with the number of bits used in the ADC)
into a subset of the gamut (sRGB,AdobeRGB,g-sRGB) that lies in the
color temperature range of the selected WB setting. From a
photographers perspective it allows you to choose which color from
the gamut is considered "white" and then selects a slice of hues
about that value from the gamut for generating the final pixel
values after demozaicing. (that's a mouth full!) "Color
temperature" or "grey point" are sometimes used(confusing to me) to
define this selection of color range that occurs when you set WB. I
feel the term "color temperature" is more convenient for dealing
with digital images based on RGB bayer filters and gamuts since the
RGB space doesn't have an explicit luminance component but I am
sure some feel better with "grey point" which doesn't seem
intuitive to me;)
Thank you for explanation of your point. I agree with what you are saying.

FRom Nikon camera one gets 2 coefficients - red and blue multipliers. Those basically are used by Nikon and some third-party software to "scale" R and B components. Adobe in ACR uses another approach, as far as I can see - having 2 tone curves for lowest and highest color temperatures, determining from the coefficients what color temperature camera measured (or was preset to), and creating a third, intermidiate set of TRCs on the fly by interpolating from 2 basic TRCs. None of the approaches is what we would use in a year from now IMHO.
Regards,
The user defined WB setting basically allows the real world hue
values represented by the sensor to fit neatly into the dynamic
range of the sensor.
This one I do not understand in particular. How WB setting affects
sensor data?

--
no text
--

--
no text
 
Maybe I missed it but are you shooting RAW or not? This can make the question irrelevant. I shoot RAW with my D100 and have turned off sharpening but even if it were on I could remove it after the fact using Capture.

RAW is RAW. All the other settings (sharpening, WB, etc) are just that, flags to capture to tell it what to apply to the RAW data structure.

Regards and good luck!

Kent
 
Maybe I missed it but are you shooting RAW or not?
Yes, I am shooting only raw. That's all I've ever done with my D70. Haven't produced a single JPG image with it.
This can make
the question irrelevant. I shoot RAW with my D100 and have turned
off sharpening but even if it were on I could remove it after the
fact using Capture.
This fact has been covered in this thread (I know, it's getting too long to read it all; I haven't read it all and I started the blasted thing). I haven't used Capture much, but I'm going back to some of my best images with Capture and remove the sharpening so I can get completely unsharpened tiff files.

--
FJP
 

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