More Moire. Processing it, thoughts.

Peter G · Mar 25, 2004

Clearly the D70 has a very weak AA filter. I think all Nikon had to do was announce that to limit the grief they are getting recently. Ater all a $5000 SLR/n doens't even have an AA filter.

Anyway this is a given now. How is this tradeoff on balance? Images do look sharper so far, but have strong moire tendencies. So if you want this camera you need to deal with it. If you shoot landscapes you may not even need to deal with it as it will mostly be man made object will be the culprits.

Here are a few of the recent moire examples processed with C1 demoirize. I tried a few methods and C1 plugin seems the best, but there are still two issues:

1: The maze like structure remains after the colour is removed. Perhaps this can be fixed using raw and different converters. Time will tell on this one.

2: You have to be very selective because there will be colour bleeding as can be seen in the edge of the tower and the flowerbox included as a test.

--
D70 club: The first rule of D70 club is to not talk about D70 issues.

nowhereatoll · Mar 25, 2004

My D70 is coming; and I am going to get the best out of it. Thanks for the tips here. Tell me something, is the sharper lenses more prone? (Seems obvious).

Peter G said:
Clearly the D70 has a very weak AA filter. I think all Nikon had to
do was announce that to limit the grief they are getting recently.
Ater all a $5000 SLR/n doens't even have an AA filter.

Anyway this is a given now. How is this tradeoff on balance? Images
do look sharper so far, but have strong moire tendencies. So if you
want this camera you need to deal with it. If you shoot landscapes
you may not even need to deal with it as it will mostly be man made
object will be the culprits.

Here are a few of the recent moire examples processed with C1
demoirize. I tried a few methods and C1 plugin seems the best, but
there are still two issues:

1: The maze like structure remains after the colour is removed.
Perhaps this can be fixed using raw and different converters. Time
will tell on this one.

2: You have to be very selective because there will be colour
bleeding as can be seen in the edge of the tower and the flowerbox
included as a test.

--
D70 club: The first rule of D70 club is to not talk about D70 issues.

--
formerly '69er' (nowhereatoll-dot-com)......[ O]..clic

jeff-c · Mar 25, 2004

Peter G said:
1: The maze like structure remains after the colour is removed.
Perhaps this can be fixed using raw and different converters. Time
will tell on this one.

The maze structure I believe is maze structure in reality.

Could someone from San Francisco verify this?

Shadco · Mar 25, 2004

Sometimes all you get is moire in which case the C1 Tool works well as would most of the other methods.

When you get moire on top of artifacts Tower, and Downspout it's going to be more difficult.

I'm going to try Nikons suggestion of shooting without filters to see if that makes a difference.

It still doesn't bother me as I bought the D70 specifically for it's added detail due to the weak AA filter and have my D2H as my primary tool for Sports and PJ.

Demosaicing artifacts may be able to be cured either in firmware or raw processing software but I'm not sure about that.

Time will tell

nowhereatoll said:
Peter G said:

Clearly the D70 has a very weak AA filter. I think all Nikon had to
do was announce that to limit the grief they are getting recently.
Ater all a $5000 SLR/n doens't even have an AA filter.

Anyway this is a given now. How is this tradeoff on balance? Images
do look sharper so far, but have strong moire tendencies. So if you
want this camera you need to deal with it. If you shoot landscapes
you may not even need to deal with it as it will mostly be man made
object will be the culprits.

Here are a few of the recent moire examples processed with C1
demoirize. I tried a few methods and C1 plugin seems the best, but
there are still two issues:

1: The maze like structure remains after the colour is removed.
Perhaps this can be fixed using raw and different converters. Time
will tell on this one.

2: You have to be very selective because there will be colour
bleeding as can be seen in the edge of the tower and the flowerbox
included as a test.

--
D70 club: The first rule of D70 club is to not talk about D70 issues.

Click to expand...

--
formerly '69er' (nowhereatoll-dot-com)......[ O]..clic

--
Shad
-----------------------------------------------------
What piano should I buy if I want to play like Mozart?

...Kit in profile...
...pbase supporter...
...Nikonians supporter...
...Charter Member Team Yellow Hands...

Shadco · Mar 25, 2004

I don't think so

In the big pitcure those artifacts may not be a big problem for a lot of shots but there are definately times when you get moire combined with artifacts.

C1 demoirize cleaned up the moire on this one no problem but you can see the underlying artifacts remain.

This is the result of my seeking moire project

jeff-c said:
Member said:

1: The maze like structure remains after the colour is removed.
Perhaps this can be fixed using raw and different converters. Time
will tell on this one.

Click to expand...

The maze structure I believe is maze structure in reality.

Could someone from San Francisco verify this?

--
Shad
-----------------------------------------------------
What piano should I buy if I want to play like Mozart?

...Kit in profile...
...pbase supporter...
...Nikonians supporter...
...Charter Member Team Yellow Hands...

Iliah Borg · Mar 25, 2004

I checked several de-mosaicking algorithms on this image. All of them profuce very different results, some are much better.
--
no text

nowhereatoll · Mar 25, 2004

Iliah Borg said:
I checked several de-mosaicking algorithms on this image. All of
them profuce very different results, some are much better.
--
no text

--
formerly '69er' (nowhereatoll-dot-com)......[ O]..clic

Iliah Borg · Mar 25, 2004

White balance for this algorithm yet to be worked out. Algorithm itself is not final, too. Hope Shadko would not mind,
2Mb:
http://www.pochtar.com/_DSC0099.fvng.jpg
--
no text

Arn · Mar 25, 2004

Here's my previous take on the DCresource transamerica sample (copy-pasted from my previous thread). I applied C1 moire removal. The pattern remains yes, except hopefully in RAW. I'm waiting for the Bibble RAW convertor.

--

http://arn.reverbe.com/

Peter G said:
Peter G wrote:
Clearly the D70 has a very weak AA filter. I think all Nikon had to
do was announce that to limit the grief they are getting recently.
Ater all a $5000 SLR/n doens't even have an AA filter.

Anyway this is a given now. How is this tradeoff on balance? Images
do look sharper so far, but have strong moire tendencies. So if you
want this camera you need to deal with it. If you shoot landscapes
you may not even need to deal with it as it will mostly be man made
object will be the culprits.

Here are a few of the recent moire examples processed with C1
demoirize. I tried a few methods and C1 plugin seems the best, but
there are still two issues:

Kenn Hwang43495 · Mar 25, 2004

http://www.pbase.com/image/8179287 -side view

http://www.pbase.com/image/24002095

http://www.michaelmaloneyphotography.com/CHRON/Features/blueangels.html

http://www.pbase.com/image/423505 - Canon G2

http://www.pbase.com/image/19516068 - B/W, pretty smooth

http://www.pbase.com/image/21221674

Judge for yourself...I'm 100% certain that the maze pattern isn't the true pattern on the building, but it's not too obtrusive once the moire color patterning is removed.

Doehns · Mar 25, 2004

If I remember it right, Adobe Camera Raw from Photoshop Cs showed those maze patterns with oversaturated reds in Oly's E-1 shots- Adobe was pretty fast in patching/updating that flaw.

So Nikon might be able to avoide those Maze patterns with a firmware update- maybe not the color patterns, but if there is no maze beneath, fixing the colour is not that hard.
I hope for a combination of updated firmware plus free software(if nescessary).

Magne Nilsen · Mar 25, 2004

Iliah Borg said:
White balance for this algorithm yet to be worked out. Algorithm
itself is not final, too. Hope Shadko would not mind,
2Mb:
http://www.pochtar.com/_DSC0099.fvng.jpg
--

Nice, but does that mean the original image is available somewhere?

~~~~
Magne

Photobug197965 · Mar 25, 2004

I found the safest method is to process locally (on areas with color moire) with Gaussian blur on duplicated layer and blend in "color" mode in PS.

I hate being forced to do post process. But before a better program (Bibble?) is available I'm afraid that's what we have to endure.

Photobug

Peter G said:
Clearly the D70 has a very weak AA filter. I think all Nikon had to
do was announce that to limit the grief they are getting recently.
Ater all a $5000 SLR/n doens't even have an AA filter.

Anyway this is a given now. How is this tradeoff on balance? Images
do look sharper so far, but have strong moire tendencies. So if you
want this camera you need to deal with it. If you shoot landscapes
you may not even need to deal with it as it will mostly be man made
object will be the culprits.

Here are a few of the recent moire examples processed with C1
demoirize. I tried a few methods and C1 plugin seems the best, but
there are still two issues:

1: The maze like structure remains after the colour is removed.
Perhaps this can be fixed using raw and different converters. Time
will tell on this one.

2: You have to be very selective because there will be colour
bleeding as can be seen in the edge of the tower and the flowerbox
included as a test.

--
D70 club: The first rule of D70 club is to not talk about D70 issues.

--

Nikon D70, N6006 & FM bodies; Nikkor 18-70/3.5-4.5G AFS, 50/1.4 AF, 80-200/2.8D AF, 35-80D AF, Tokina 20-35 AF

Thadoe Hein · Mar 25, 2004

I am the new member of dpreview forum although I read the discussions in the forum regularly.

Here is how I do to remove maze like moire pattern.

1. You have to have Nikon Capture 4 (ver 4.1)
2. Open the Raw image in Capture 4.1 and zoom in to the problem area
3. Click View from the menu and choose Palette 2
4. Under Noice Reduction tab from Palette 2, check the box Edge Noice Reduction
5. The maze like pattern will be removed

6. To remove remaining colour pattern, you can use both Colour Noice Reduction and Colour Moire Reduction based on your prerence.

Note.

1. It is more effective for medium to big size maze like moire pattern and less effective on very small size patterns. However, such very small size moire patterns become visible only when you enlarge the image to 1600% or when you print beyond 2' x 3' sizes. So why care!

2.. This method is very effective on my problem photos (actually, I created such photos by deliberate shooting; shooting to barcodes, texture etc.) but I do not know if this method will work on your pictures. Thus, please keep me posted if this method has limitations.

3. As it can be fixed by software, I think Nikon can eliminate the problem in the future firmware update.

4. I LOVE D70.

Thadoe Hein

Arn said:
Here's my previous take on the DCresource transamerica sample
(copy-pasted from my previous thread). I applied C1 moire removal.
The pattern remains yes, except hopefully in RAW. I'm waiting for
the Bibble RAW convertor.

--

http://arn.reverbe.com/

Arn said:

Peter G wrote:
Clearly the D70 has a very weak AA filter. I think all Nikon had to
do was announce that to limit the grief they are getting recently.
Ater all a $5000 SLR/n doens't even have an AA filter.

Anyway this is a given now. How is this tradeoff on balance? Images
do look sharper so far, but have strong moire tendencies. So if you
want this camera you need to deal with it. If you shoot landscapes
you may not even need to deal with it as it will mostly be man made
object will be the culprits.

Here are a few of the recent moire examples processed with C1
demoirize. I tried a few methods and C1 plugin seems the best, but
there are still two issues:

Click to expand...

Stan · Mar 25, 2004

...seems like a lot of "enlargement". Color moire is not hard to post process. The "mazey" artifacts have been called Bayer conversion related by Phil in the past on other cameras. Different converters / software handle this differently. A few have noted the impression of increased detail in D70 images compared to some other DSLRs. That may be the other side of the AA filter coin in this case.

Stan

Shadco · Mar 26, 2004

I provided the original nef to Iliah.

It's posted in jpg form here

http://www.pbase.com/image/27250816/original

Magne Nilsen said:
Iliah Borg said:

White balance for this algorithm yet to be worked out. Algorithm
itself is not final, too. Hope Shadko would not mind,
2Mb:
http://www.pochtar.com/_DSC0099.fvng.jpg
--

Click to expand...

Nice, but does that mean the original image is available somewhere?

~~~~
Magne

--
Shad
-----------------------------------------------------
What piano should I buy if I want to play like Mozart?

...Kit in profile...
...pbase supporter...
...Nikonians supporter...
...Charter Member Team Yellow Hands...

Shadco · Mar 26, 2004

you know I don't mind.

very nice.

Iliah Borg said:
White balance for this algorithm yet to be worked out. Algorithm
itself is not final, too. Hope Shadko would not mind,
2Mb:
http://www.pochtar.com/_DSC0099.fvng.jpg
--
no text

--
Shad
-----------------------------------------------------
What piano should I buy if I want to play like Mozart?

...Kit in profile...
...pbase supporter...
...Nikonians supporter...
...Charter Member Team Yellow Hands...

Iliah Borg · Mar 26, 2004

Shadco said:
you know I don't mind.

Thanks, Shadko.

--
no text

Peter G · Mar 26, 2004

If you are talking about my original post none of these are enlarged. Most are crops from the Dcresource gallery.

http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/nikon/d70-review/gallery.shtml

The car is from a user post I believe:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1034&message=8139639

Stan said:
...seems like a lot of "enlargement". Color moire is not hard to
post process. The "mazey" artifacts have been called Bayer
conversion related by Phil in the past on other cameras. Different
converters / software handle this differently. A few have noted
the impression of increased detail in D70 images compared to some
other DSLRs. That may be the other side of the AA filter coin in
this case.

Stan

--
http://www.trytel.com/~pguidry/vacation.html

John Rauhe · Mar 26, 2004

How can you patch the flaw? the information about how it looks (for real) is lost in the mazes of the D70.

We did not even know if the maze pattern, of the SF building, were part of the architecture before a friendly person showed us pictures of the tower taken with another camera.

It is quite disturbing, that every day, people is sharing their best pictures with us in this forum, but a lot of these pictures do actually contain the Mooire and Maze, and the posters did not notice.
john

Doehns said:
If I remember it right, Adobe Camera Raw from Photoshop Cs showed
those maze patterns with oversaturated reds in Oly's E-1 shots-
Adobe was pretty fast in patching/updating that flaw.
So Nikon might be able to avoide those Maze patterns with a
firmware update- maybe not the color patterns, but if there is no
maze beneath, fixing the colour is not that hard.
I hope for a combination of updated firmware plus free software(if
nescessary).

More Moire. Processing it, thoughts.

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