Martin H. Schwartz
Well-known member
I am a novice to video. What's the best size and frame speed to use on a cruise vacation? Is HD good enough or should I use 4K?
-
Welcome to the new forums! Please read this first. For known issues we are working to resolve, click here.
Video size and frame rate
- Thread starter Martin H. Schwartz
- Start date
Sean Nelson
Forum Pro
My advice is to shoot at the highest resolution and frame rate you've got, because with something like a cruise vacation you can't really go back and re-shoot it. Better IMHO to have more quality than you need than regret not having the quality you could have had. The downside is that it will take more storage space, it's up to you to decide if that's acceptable or not.
Frame rate is a contentious topic. I personally shoot everything at 60p because I like the smooth motion. I shoot primarily for keeping memories. Other people who are more serious about shooting to present to audiences often prefer 24p because it looks more like what you see in a movie theater.
If you're not sure about frame rates, I would suggest shooting some test footage at 24 and 60 and having a look to see yourself what you prefer. Be sure to shoot some subjects that display fairly rapid motion, either across the frame or within it, so that you can appreciate what the difference looks like.
And above all, take all advice you get on the Internet with a big grain of salt... ;-)
Frame rate is a contentious topic. I personally shoot everything at 60p because I like the smooth motion. I shoot primarily for keeping memories. Other people who are more serious about shooting to present to audiences often prefer 24p because it looks more like what you see in a movie theater.
If you're not sure about frame rates, I would suggest shooting some test footage at 24 and 60 and having a look to see yourself what you prefer. Be sure to shoot some subjects that display fairly rapid motion, either across the frame or within it, so that you can appreciate what the difference looks like.
And above all, take all advice you get on the Internet with a big grain of salt... ;-)
Martin H. Schwartz
Well-known member
Thank you. Very useful information. Will test different frame rates before vacation. Have been shooting digital photography for a while but video seems like a different game,
.
.
Last edited:
Off The Mark
Veteran Member
AUDIO is EXTREMELY important when shooting video. Please don't neglect it.
If you want to record someone talking, your in-camera mics will work as long as you aren't more than say two feet (around 60cm) away from the person speaking. So you would want a wide angle lens and stick the camera real close to their face.
Otherwise, think about what you want to shoot, what audio you would like to record, and we can give yoiu some tips.
Hope this helps.
Tom Stites
Leading Member
Good advice from Sean, though I'll add that there is a bit of a middle ground that I find preferable in terms of storage and decent performance for shooting anything that's not particularly static. 30fps is what I use for general purpose shooting, travel, walking around, more or less static wildlife and taking in landscapes. I do shoot at 60 and 120fps if something I might want to do some slo-mo with, but otherwise 30 is just fine.
Also, other than the PAL countries that use 50 and 25Hz video standards, everyone else works with 60 and 30Hz, so to avoid the frame repeat studdering you get when converting 24p to a frame rate that's a non-integer multiple of 24, stick with 30 or 60fps. 95% of people who might view your material are going to be watching on a display that's operating at either a 30Hz or 60Hz refresh rate, unless they live in a PAL country.
And one last thing...please, please, please...slow down your panning...don't whipsaw your viewers all over the place...take your time...smooth is key!
Cheers!
Also, other than the PAL countries that use 50 and 25Hz video standards, everyone else works with 60 and 30Hz, so to avoid the frame repeat studdering you get when converting 24p to a frame rate that's a non-integer multiple of 24, stick with 30 or 60fps. 95% of people who might view your material are going to be watching on a display that's operating at either a 30Hz or 60Hz refresh rate, unless they live in a PAL country.
And one last thing...please, please, please...slow down your panning...don't whipsaw your viewers all over the place...take your time...smooth is key!
Cheers!
Off The Mark
Veteran Member
I want to reply a bit more directly to your question.
In general, it is better to shoot in 4K than in HD. There are many reasons to do so, and won't go in to them here.
However, there are times when you might HAVE to shoot in HD (just so you know, 720p is technically HD, while 1080p is FHD, or Full HD, but usually 1080p is often just called HD).
The reasons you MIGHT have to shoot in 1080p (FHD) instead of 4K are:
Your camera MIGHT overheat if shooting in 4K for long periods of time (test this out in similar weather conditions to what you expect to encounter).
You don't have big enough memory card space (so buy more, bigger, faster SD cards).
Your computer struggles to edit 4K video (you will generally need a graphics card with lots of VRAM, although we have a couple of users runningapple silicon computers and they say certain programs edit smoothly on them, so, maybe research in this area).
Sometimes there is a LARGE crop in 4K if you want to shoot at higher frame rates for slow motion (like my Panasonic full frame cameras).
Sometimes you can use pixel-to-pixel readout in HD that will basically allow you to "zoom in" to the image. (Although, I am not sure it is really better than shooting in 4K and then cropping in later during editing.
uncle dunc
Senior Member
A lot of us shoot in 4k and, after editing, export at 1080p HD. This gives us the opportunity to crop and zoom while editing. A 4k image contains the equivalent of four 1080p images. (Imagine a horizontal line and a vertical line dividing a 4k image into four equal rectangles. One of those rectangles is the size of a 1080p HD image.)
With this much leeway, you can frame your shots a little wide when shooting - so you don't miss anything - and then when editing, you can crop in a bit to get the perfect framing. Or you can use keyframes to program a slow zoom, sometimes called the Ken Burns Effect. If you're unfamiliar, Ken Burns makes documentaries where he'll show an old photograph and do a slow creeping zoom while it's on the screen. Video is all about motion. Adding motion - even if it's barely perceptible - to a static shot makes it more interesting for the viewer.
You can also program slow pans, so that rather than showing the entire shot, you can enlarge to 1080p and then slowly pan from one side of the frame to the other, as if you were doing a slow pan when you were filming. Generally speaking, slow zooms and pans programmed during editing are are going to look much smoother than trying to do them while shooting. On the other hand, if there are objects in the foreground, doing a slow pan while filming is going to look more interesting because of the way the foreground objects move in relation to the background.
You definitely want to experiment with the camera doing slow pans. Some cameras have built in IBIS - image stabilization. What it does is suspend the image sensor with magnets. When the camera senses motion, it tries to keep the sensor level, and in the case of lateral movement, it tries to keep the image centered. Panning is lateral movement, so IBIS might move the sensor when you start a pan, but then it runs out of room to move the sensor. This will create a stutter in the image. (The term for that is judder.) Panning too fast can also cause judder, even if IBIS is turned off. There are tables on the internet stating how quickly you can pan, which depends on the focal length of the lens, but 7 seconds to pan from one side of the scene in your rangefinder to the other side of the scene is a general rule.
The book 'How to Shoot Video That Doesn't Suck' is highly recommended. It does not focus on technical issues, it's more about being creative with the camera. One takeaway from that book is to shoot details. Any time you're shooting a scene, find a few details to do follow up shots on. For example, if you're shooting an old building, after you get your wide shot, get up close and find some details - a cracked window, a rain gutter downspout, weeds breaking through the concrete. These details bring the viewer "into" the scene, which is our goal.
I shoot at 30p, unless I'm planning on it being a slow motion shot, in which case I shoot at 60p and then slow it down to 30p in editing.
One other consideration is time lapse shots. Imagine you've got a great view of the city from your hotel balcony. If there are clouds moving across the sky, rather than just doing a 5 second shot of your spectacular view, set up a time lapse shot for an hour so that in the finished video, your five second shot has clouds moving across the sky. Scripted dramas use this technique sometimes to indicate the passage of time as a bridge to the next step in the narrative.
Lastly, video is all about motion and light. As a photographer you know the value of light. If you can time your most important shots to be early or late in the day, you can avoid the "snapshot" look you get with the midday sun. I'm always looking for backlighting or side lighting.
Lastly #2 - the "reveal" shot, Get in close on a patch of flowers, hold for a few seconds, and then slowly raise the camera to reveal the scene behind the flowers - assuming your autofocus will shift to the background. Or shoot a corner of the building, and then move around the corner to reveal what's on the other side. Reveal shots can add drama to an otherwise 'flat' narrative.
With this much leeway, you can frame your shots a little wide when shooting - so you don't miss anything - and then when editing, you can crop in a bit to get the perfect framing. Or you can use keyframes to program a slow zoom, sometimes called the Ken Burns Effect. If you're unfamiliar, Ken Burns makes documentaries where he'll show an old photograph and do a slow creeping zoom while it's on the screen. Video is all about motion. Adding motion - even if it's barely perceptible - to a static shot makes it more interesting for the viewer.
You can also program slow pans, so that rather than showing the entire shot, you can enlarge to 1080p and then slowly pan from one side of the frame to the other, as if you were doing a slow pan when you were filming. Generally speaking, slow zooms and pans programmed during editing are are going to look much smoother than trying to do them while shooting. On the other hand, if there are objects in the foreground, doing a slow pan while filming is going to look more interesting because of the way the foreground objects move in relation to the background.
You definitely want to experiment with the camera doing slow pans. Some cameras have built in IBIS - image stabilization. What it does is suspend the image sensor with magnets. When the camera senses motion, it tries to keep the sensor level, and in the case of lateral movement, it tries to keep the image centered. Panning is lateral movement, so IBIS might move the sensor when you start a pan, but then it runs out of room to move the sensor. This will create a stutter in the image. (The term for that is judder.) Panning too fast can also cause judder, even if IBIS is turned off. There are tables on the internet stating how quickly you can pan, which depends on the focal length of the lens, but 7 seconds to pan from one side of the scene in your rangefinder to the other side of the scene is a general rule.
The book 'How to Shoot Video That Doesn't Suck' is highly recommended. It does not focus on technical issues, it's more about being creative with the camera. One takeaway from that book is to shoot details. Any time you're shooting a scene, find a few details to do follow up shots on. For example, if you're shooting an old building, after you get your wide shot, get up close and find some details - a cracked window, a rain gutter downspout, weeds breaking through the concrete. These details bring the viewer "into" the scene, which is our goal.
I shoot at 30p, unless I'm planning on it being a slow motion shot, in which case I shoot at 60p and then slow it down to 30p in editing.
One other consideration is time lapse shots. Imagine you've got a great view of the city from your hotel balcony. If there are clouds moving across the sky, rather than just doing a 5 second shot of your spectacular view, set up a time lapse shot for an hour so that in the finished video, your five second shot has clouds moving across the sky. Scripted dramas use this technique sometimes to indicate the passage of time as a bridge to the next step in the narrative.
Lastly, video is all about motion and light. As a photographer you know the value of light. If you can time your most important shots to be early or late in the day, you can avoid the "snapshot" look you get with the midday sun. I'm always looking for backlighting or side lighting.
Lastly #2 - the "reveal" shot, Get in close on a patch of flowers, hold for a few seconds, and then slowly raise the camera to reveal the scene behind the flowers - assuming your autofocus will shift to the background. Or shoot a corner of the building, and then move around the corner to reveal what's on the other side. Reveal shots can add drama to an otherwise 'flat' narrative.
John Vickers
Senior Member
Charlie Shackleton might disagree.
Consider his 607 minute work Paint Drying (2023).
I'll let y'all know when my own work Black Paint Drying is released.
Last edited:
I hope you used 10bit 422 color sampling and an all-i codec, with 60 fps to best capture the motion.Charlie Shackleton might disagree.
Consider his 607 minute work Paint Drying (2023).
I'll let y'all know when my own work Black Paint Drying is released.
John Vickers
Senior Member
It'll be released as a 24.000 fps InterOp DCP. Any other framerate would cause a world of pain.I hope you used 10bit 422 color sampling and an all-i codec, with 60 fps to best capture the motion.[...]
I'll let y'all know when my own work Black Paint Drying is released.
Off The Mark
Veteran Member
BTW: What camera are you going to be using?
Have you thought about audio? Please DON'T buy a microphone until you share some thoughts first on what type of audio you want to capture.
Gato Amarillo
Forum Pro
I'm not a great expert, but FWIW --
Be sure you have plenty of storage, especially if you plan to shoot 4K or high frame rate. Make your best estimate of what you need, then up it by 50%. Plan how to organize and carry used cards.
Be aware of any heat issues with your camera, again, especially if you shoot 4K. You can check for any online reports of issues in reviews or on forums, or you can ask on appropriate forums.
Now to your questions --
Personally I see little reason to shoot high frame rates unless you do a lot of panning or plan to convert to slow motion. Otherwise I'd shoot at the standard rate for your country, either 30 or 25 fps. But if you have plenty of storage and your computer and camera can handle 60, feel free.
Similarly, 4K is great, but 1080 is more than good enough for most personal work. If you want to go 4K be sure your storage, camera, and editing computer can handle it. Do use 4K if you expect to crop.
Find time to do some testing and practice. Shoot as much as you can, even if it's just around the house, but try for conditions similar to what you expect on your trip. Then sit down and do some editing. You want to confirm that your equipment is up to the job, then you want to assess your skills and look for any areas you need to address.
The book How to Shoot Video That Doesn't Suck is great. I read it a few years back, just recently bought a fresh copy and started reading it again.
And last: Shoot plenty of "B roll". Be sure to get detail and overall shots to complement your main subjects.
Gato
Be sure you have plenty of storage, especially if you plan to shoot 4K or high frame rate. Make your best estimate of what you need, then up it by 50%. Plan how to organize and carry used cards.
Be aware of any heat issues with your camera, again, especially if you shoot 4K. You can check for any online reports of issues in reviews or on forums, or you can ask on appropriate forums.
Now to your questions --
Personally I see little reason to shoot high frame rates unless you do a lot of panning or plan to convert to slow motion. Otherwise I'd shoot at the standard rate for your country, either 30 or 25 fps. But if you have plenty of storage and your computer and camera can handle 60, feel free.
Similarly, 4K is great, but 1080 is more than good enough for most personal work. If you want to go 4K be sure your storage, camera, and editing computer can handle it. Do use 4K if you expect to crop.
Find time to do some testing and practice. Shoot as much as you can, even if it's just around the house, but try for conditions similar to what you expect on your trip. Then sit down and do some editing. You want to confirm that your equipment is up to the job, then you want to assess your skills and look for any areas you need to address.
The book How to Shoot Video That Doesn't Suck is great. I read it a few years back, just recently bought a fresh copy and started reading it again.
And last: Shoot plenty of "B roll". Be sure to get detail and overall shots to complement your main subjects.
Gato
uncle dunc
Senior Member
Depending on your editing software, there should be an option to create proxy files. A proxy file is a copy of the original file, but at a lower resolution so it doesn't bog down playback. When you render the final version of the video, the editor references the original file so you get maximum quality. Since I generally shoot multi-camera video, I start the proxy file process the night before, and let it process overnight.
If you do get stuttering during playback right after making some kind of editing adjustment, pushing stop and waiting a few seconds might clear things up. You can also. lower the resolution of your main playback window, which won't affect the final edit, but will enable smoother playback.
If you do get stuttering during playback right after making some kind of editing adjustment, pushing stop and waiting a few seconds might clear things up. You can also. lower the resolution of your main playback window, which won't affect the final edit, but will enable smoother playback.
Gary3000
Senior Member
4K has 4x the resolution of HD, so obviously it's the best to go with if possible.
But as for frame rate, you have the option to shoot whatever you'd like/prefer.
go to Youtube and watch all other videos that the pro travel-bloggers put out, and in the youtube settings you can see what format/frame rate they go with. (which doesn't necessarily meant they shot in that same format, but most people shoot and upload in the same size and frame rate.
and be sure to put the camera down and enjoy the vacation when you can.
spider-mario
Senior Member
And probably even then. I’ve only ever lived in PAL or SECAM countries and the last displays I recall using a 50Hz refresh rate were CRTs. Display refresh rates have long been decoupled from mains frequency.
The main reason to shoot 50fps instead of 60fps nowadays, even in such countries, would be to use a 1/50s shutter speed instead of 1/60s to prevent flickering in the presence of artificial lighting.
Meanwhile, I’d be hard-pressed to think of a reason to shoot at 25fps.
Last edited:
John Vickers
Senior Member
I thought this had been done to death.
Frame rate should be determined by the end use of your video product. As you imply, the idea of "the right frame rate for your country" has been obsolete for decades. Unless you are shooting something for broadcast TV.
The choice of shutter speed is used to control flicker/banding caused by mains utility related lighting flicker. Frame rate can't do that, unless you have a generator and a camera which are genlocked together, and even then frame rate can only control flicker.
Reasons for using 25Hz or 50Hz framerates include: that's what the customer requires; you want to produce a PAL DVD.
Given a free choice of framerate, then, yes, 29.97P and 59.94P are good. Maybe 23.976P if your content includes little rapid motion, and you want to save a little bandwidth and processing time in post.
All of those choices are compatible with 1/100 s shutter; 29.97P and 23.976P are compatible with 1/50 s shutter, and 23.976P is compatible with 1/25 s shutter - which might be useful in poor light.
...
Fun fact: "PAL country" does not imply 50Hz TV. Brazilian PAL (PAL-M) is 59.94i.
Last edited:
spider-mario
Senior Member
Right, but if you want a high-ish framerate such as 60fps, 1/100s will not give you enough motion blur for natural-looking motion (https://www.wipster.io/blog/debunking-the-180-degree-shutter-rule), hence my single exception for 50fps in such cases (to be able to use 1/50s instead), which I did not extend to 25fps since indeed 24fps and 30fps are also compatible with a 1/50s shutter speed.
You shoukd use 8K if you've got that option . . . unless you're shooting action, or unless you think you're going to be slowing down the video to make slow motion clips.
The thing is at some point in the future all screens will be 8K or higher resolution. It will take a few more years, but at some point 8K will be as ubiquitous as 4K is now (basically every new camera can shoot 4K video, and three years ago I bought my 55" 4K Samsung TV for just $350. (It does 120HZ refresh, which is one of the main reasons I chose it.) That was a sale price, but today the regular price for a similar TV is less than $300. One day we'll be able to get a 75" 8K TV for $500. Do you really want to vuew 1080 videos on an 8K TV? I can imagine some of the comments . . . "Too bad you didn't have better quality cameras back in those days."
Something to consider is that you can now crop video, just like we can crop photos. Cropping an 8K video results in the equivalent if 4K video, even if you crop a lot. This us one reason I plan to make my next camera purchase a camera that can do 8K video.
Gary3000
Senior Member
You're omitting one significant factor: visual acuity
at a given distance, there is no perceivable benefit to having higher resolution.
Try editing a video that contains a mix of 1080 and 4k material and then show it to someone else on your 55" from 10ft away and see if they can spot the difference.
Not only is the difference imperceivable, but newer 4k (and future 8k) TV's have built in scaling to fill in the pixels of HD video.
I have a 120" 4k laser projection home theater setup that I sit 10ft from the screen, and honestly, a majority of what I view is 1080 (including sports and news), and I've never been bothered. The difference between standard def to HD was huge,.but not much with HD to 4k. I obviously care about imagine quality, or I wouldn't have plunked down so much for my system, but I'm in zero rush to jump in the 8k bandwagon. Local broadcasters haven't even jumped to 4k.
Similar threads
Keyboard shortcuts
- f
- Forum