Editing for SDR and HDR output

DMillier said:

So why do SDR screens lose colour in the highlights? And what is technically different with a HDR screen that solves this problem.?

Click to expand...

I already have you the best answer that I had. This is nothing about HDR screens, though they are needed to display and HDR image.

DavidMillier said:

And does the human eye normally see more colour in bright areas than we can currently reproduce with SDR? .

Click to expand...

Of course. The HDR image shows colors that we see with our eyes but is lost in tone mapping to limited SDR range.

DavidMillier said:

Or is the HDR fix adding colour we wouldn't expect to see?

Click to expand...

No.

DavidMillier said:

If imaging does fail in this respect, why has nobody mentioned this failing to me once in the last 40 years before today?

Actually, thinking about it, I remember one hint from the sigma forum when someone claimed foveon preserves highlight colours that bayer sensors lose.

--
2024: Awarded Royal Photographic Society LRPS Distinction
Photo of the day: https://whisperingcat.co.uk/wp/photo-of-the-day/
Website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/
DPReview gallery: https://www.dpreview.com/galleries/0286305481
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmillier/ (very old!)

Click to expand...

I don't know David.... I just know it looks good. And my monitor is not even high-end HDR.

Greg7579 said:

SrMi said:

Greg7579 said:

JimKasson said:

Greg7579 said:

I have been told for years here on DPR that a blown highlight is a blown highlight, but that must not be true now because when I review my GFX raw files with HDR turned on in LR, the "blown" highlights suddenly pop back with good detail that is sort of striking, and the file takes on a more luminous looking aspect that I can't describe well.

Click to expand...

If there's good detail, and it's not detail that was invented by the raw developer, the highlight wasn't blown in the first place.

Click to expand...

Maybe. But we had no way to know and didn't see it until now with HDR in LR. I don't know the tech, but you can see the result.

Click to expand...

No, maybe; clipped highlights look horrible in HDR.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the correction. I'm still learning HDR tech.

Greg7579 said:

Greg7579 said:

But I have a simple but probably stupid question. If I show the raw in HDR mode in LR and edit in HDR mode, then export the jpeg, will I see that in the jpeg and on the jpeg on a non HDR monitor? Or when you export jpeg it is in SDR and makes no difference - you lose what you saw in HDR?

Click to expand...

I read that an HDR mode JPEG can include a gain map which would allow the image to be displayed properly in SDR mode as well.

Click to expand...

If that is true, then I should be exporting every one of my jpegs in HDR mode.

Click to expand...

Let us know how it works out. Some forum software may not be able to handle images generated for HDR and SDR properly. HDR is still in an early stage. I hope DPR will/does support it.

Greg7579 said:

I am in MX shooting IR on a bright white beach with bright white buildings, I just noticed this morning that my 4-year-old Dell XPS 15 K laptop shows these images way better on the highlights in HDR mode in LR. I didn't know this screen was HDR. I guess I should be in HDR mode when I export the JPEGs to post here today.

--
Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas
https://www.flickr.com/photos/139148982@N02/albums

Click to expand...

SrMi said:

SrMi said:

If that is true, then I should be exporting every one of my jpegs in HDR mode.

Click to expand...

Let us know how it works out. Some forum software may not be able to handle images generated for HDR and SDR properly. HDR is still in an early stage. I hope DPR will/does support it.

Click to expand...

I don't think DPReview supports HDR yet but they've written articles about HDR and even incorporating HDR stills into Final Cut, so they seem perfectly aware of the opportunity.

As of mid-September when the new Mac OS is out of beta something like 93% of the browser market will support HDR, so I suspect awareness of HDR stills amongst photographers and support for HDR from DPreview and others will start growing at that point.

EDIT: Here is a link to a DPReview article about HDR stills and Final Cut. Worth reading even if you don't do video.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/5...ideos-or-photo-slideshows-using-final-cut-pro

--Darin

Greg7579 said:

If that is true, then I should be exporting every one of my jpegs in HDR mode.

Click to expand...

Standardization of the export format for HDR files seems to be in flux. "JPEG XL" seems to be out. AVIF seems to be in. Lightroom allows every file format in its export dialog to be exported in HDR. What will read those files is not super clear.

--Darin

darinb said:

SrMi said:

darinb said:

If that is true, then I should be exporting every one of my jpegs in HDR mode.

Click to expand...

Let us know how it works out. Some forum software may not be able to handle images generated for HDR and SDR properly. HDR is still in an early stage. I hope DPR will/does support it.

Click to expand...

I don't think DPReview supports HDR yet but they've written articles about HDR and even incorporating HDR stills into Final Cut, so they seem perfectly aware of the opportunity.

As of mid-September when the new Mac OS is out of beta something like 93% of the browser market will support HDR, so I suspect awareness of HDR stills amongst photographers and support for HDR from DPreview and others will start growing at that point.

Click to expand...

How do you process and export images so that they are well viewable on SDR and HDR?

darinb said:

EDIT: Here is a link to a DPReview article about HDR stills and Final Cut. Worth reading even if you don't do video.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/5...ideos-or-photo-slideshows-using-final-cut-pro

--Darin

--
Darin Boville
My photo site: www.darinboville.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/darinboville/
A Bigger Camera (blog): www.abiggercamera.com

Click to expand...

SrMi said:

How do you process and export images so that they are well viewable on SDR and HDR?

Click to expand...

There are two basic approaches.

1) You do your HDR thing, save as AVIF or whatever, and when the SDR monitor sees the file it attempts to automatically reduce the range of tones in the HDR image to fit the SDR capabilities (or your editing software provides that information, again, automatically).

2) In Lightroom and (I think) Photoshop, you have the option to modify the SDR version separately from the HDR. When you engage the HDR button in Lightroom, for example, a new adjustment panel will appear called "SDR Redition settings" which will allow you to customize the fallback SDR rendering--changes here will not affect the HDR version. It has sliders for Brightness, Contrast, Clarity, Highlights, Shadows, Whites, and Highlight Sat.

It's important to note that all of this HDR for stills stuff is new and don't assume it's all working yet, even within Lighroom. For example, when you view an HDR in Lighroom in its Develop mode all is well. When you jump out to the Library mode the photo will look awful. It can be confusing...

Step by step!

Apple, in the video I linked, talked about the advantages of their implementation of gain maps as being both simple and bi-directional, so the issue of backward compatibility is forefront in the minds of the people working on the standards.

darinb said:

SrMi said:

How do you process and export images so that they are well viewable on SDR and HDR?

Click to expand...

There are two basic approaches.

1) You do your HDR thing, save as AVIF or whatever, and when the SDR monitor sees the file it attempts to automatically reduce the range of tones in the HDR image to fit the SDR capabilities (or your editing software provides that information, again, automatically).

2) In Lightroom and (I think) Photoshop, you have the option to modify the SDR version separately from the HDR. When you engage the HDR button in Lightroom, for example, a new adjustment panel will appear called "SDR Redition settings" which will allow you to customize the fallback SDR rendering--changes here will not affect the HDR version. It has sliders for Brightness, Contrast, Clarity, Highlights, Shadows, Whites, and Highlight Sat.

It's important to note that all of this HDR for stills stuff is new and don't assume it's all working yet, even within Lighroom. For example, when you view an HDR in Lighroom in its Develop mode all is well. When you jump out to the Library mode the photo will look awful. It can be confusing...

Step by step!

Apple, in the video I linked, talked about the advantages of their implementation of gain maps as being both simple and bi-directional, so the issue of backward compatibility is forefront in the minds of the people working on the standards.

Click to expand...

What is your experience with HDR images in SDR? I assume that you need gain maps included in order to see it properly in SDR mode and AVIFs do not support gain maps.

darinb said:

--
Darin Boville
My photo site: www.darinboville.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/darinboville/
A Bigger Camera (blog): www.abiggercamera.com

Click to expand...

Greg7579 said:

JimKasson said:

Greg7579 said:

I have been told for years here on DPR that a blown highlight is a blown highlight, but that must not be true now because when I review my GFX raw files with HDR turned on in LR, the "blown" highlights suddenly pop back with good detail that is sort of striking, and the file takes on a more luminous looking aspect that I can't describe well.

Click to expand...

If there's good detail, and it's not detail that was invented by the raw developer, the highlight wasn't blown in the first place.

Click to expand...

Maybe. But we had no way to know

Click to expand...

Yes, we did. Rawdigger.

Greg7579 said:

and didn't see it until now with HDR in LR. I don't know the tech, but you can see the result.

Click to expand...

Greg7579 said:

Interceptor121 said:

I have had HDR screen since the very beginning

Click to expand...

If your HDR screen is older it is not the same as what we have now.

Greg7579 said:

There is an overwhelming emphasis on brigthness however what matters is contrast

I much prefer my LG OLED tv with true black to the bright image of my macbook pro or my iphones or even worse some desktop monitors that are just basic LED

Click to expand...

Of course. We all do. But OLED is terrible fpr productivity on a desktop monitor. Burn-in and bad word and excel performance and trouble in many applications.

I saw an 85-inch mini-LED 4K TV in Costco last week for 3 grand! Amazing.

Greg7579 said:

Ultimately 10 stops of dynamic range are plenty and many images do not even reach them

Click to expand...

It's not all about DR with HDR. Even images with not much DR in even light look better.

Click to expand...

If you're trying to reproduce a low dynamic range scene on a monitor, what good does it do to have the monitor have more dynamic range than the scene?

SrMi said:

DMillier said:

Chan doesn't provide any explanation as to why this happens, though, just the assertion it does.

Click to expand...

He wrote that the color palette near white is limited in SDR. But in HDR, those highlights are moved to the middle, which allows for a much larger color palette. That sounds like a reasonable explanation to me, and it is confirmed with experiments.

SrMi said:

Is this the fault of the monitor hardware, some effect of the human visual system, a problem with file format, or what? Why don't prints have this issue?

Click to expand...

Prints have the same issue with highlights.

SrMi said:

That suggests to me the issue is related to transmissive light viewing. Id like to understand why does it happen. Also, he's the LR gurus, youd expect him to gush and champion about new LR features.... Does this this compromise his explanation?

Click to expand...

I have only skimmed his article before experimenting with HDR. After I made my observations, I went to check for more details about what I was seeing. Eric's reputation is very good. Until I see proof otherwise, I assume that his articles are helpful.

Click to expand...

You can take what Eric says to the bank.

guy_incognito1 said:

JimKasson said:

Interceptor121 said:

You can have an sdr 10 bits image that shows more colors than 8 bit jpeg

Click to expand...

How are you defining "more colors"? More discrete colors that humans can discriminate from each other? How do you perform that calculation?

Click to expand...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_depth

Click to expand...

That doesn't answer the question.

guy_incognito1 said:

oh boy, actual color science! not the fake "color science" term everyone on dpreview likes to misuse.

Click to expand...

Publications:

Kasson, J.M., Nin, S.I., Plouffe, W.E., and Hafner, J.L., “Performing Color Space Conversions with Three-Dimensional Linear Interpolation, Journal of Electronic Imaging, vol. 4, July 1995, pp. 226-249.

Kasson, J.M., and Plouffe, W.E., “An Analysis of Selected Computer Interchange Color Spaces”, ACM Transactions on Graphics, vol. 11, no. 4, October, 1992, pp. 373-405.

Papers Presented:

Kasson, J.M., “Efficient, Chromaticity-Preserving Sharpening for RGB Images,” Device-Independent Color Imaging, Walowit, E., Editor, SPIE vol. 2414, pp. 134-145 (1995).

Kasson, J.M., “Efficient, Chromaticity-Preserving Midtone Correction for RGB Images,” Second Color Imaging Conference, Scottsdale, AZ, November 15-18, 1994.

Kasson, J. M., “Tetrahedral Interpolation Algorithm Accuracy,” Device-Independent Color Imaging, Walowit, E., Editor, SPIE vol. 2170 (1994).

Kasson, J. M., Plouffe, W.E., and Nin, S. I., “A tetrahedral interpolation technique for color space conversion,” Device-Independent Color Imaging and Imaging Systems Integration, Motta, R. J., and Berberian, H. A., Editors, SPIE vol. 1909, pp 127-138 (1993).

Nin, S. I., Kasson, J. M., and Plouffe, W., “Printing CIELAB images on a CMYK printer using trilinear interpolation,” Color Hard Copy and Graphic Arts, Bares, J., Editor, SPIE vol. 1670 (1992).

Plouffe, W. Kasson, J.M., Easy-to-Compute Non-Linearities for Efficient Encoding of Color, Society for Information Display International Symposium, Digest of Technical Papers, Volume XXII, May 1991, pp 814-816.

Kasson, J.M. and Plouffe, W., “Subsampled Device-Independent Interchange Color Spaces,” Image Handling and Reproduction Systems Integration, SPIE vol 1460, pp 11-19, 1991.

Kasson, J.M., Color Science for Device-Independent Color Reproduction, Society for Information Display Conference, Las Vegas, NV, May 1990.

Kasson, J.M. and Plouffe, W., Requirements for Computer Interchange Color Spaces, SPSE/SPIE Electronic Imaging Conference, Santa Clara, CA, February 1990.

Patents:

Kasson, J.M., “Computationally efficient low-artifact system for spatially filtering digital color images,” USA 5,793,885, issued August 11, 1998.

Kasson, J.M., “Method and Apparatus for Tone Correction of a Digital Color Image with Preservation of the Chromaticity of the Image,” USA. 5,774,412, issued June 30, 1998.

Kasson, J.M., and Plouffe, W.E., Pryor, D., Nin, S.I., “Function Approximation Using a Centered Cubic Packing with Tetragonal Disphenoid Extraction,” USA 5,751,926, issued May 12, 1998.

Edgar, A., and Kasson, J.M., “Automatic Cross Color Elimination,” USA. No. 5,509,086, issued Apr 16, 1996.

Kasson, J.M., “Method and Apparatus for Interactively Indicating Image Boundaries in Digital Image Cropping,” USA. 5,473,740, issued December 5, 1995.

Kasson, J.M., “Color Image Gamut-Mapping System with Chroma Enhancement at Human-Insensitive Spatial Frequencies,” USA. 5,450,216, issued September 12, 1995.

Kasson, J.M., and Plouffe, W.E., “Tetrahedron/Octahedron Packing and Tetrahedron Extraction for Function Approximation,” USA. 5,390,035, issued February 14, 1995.

Edgar, A., and Kasson, J.M., “Display Calibration,” USA. No. 5,298,993, issued Mar 29, 1994.

--
https://blog.kasson.com

JimKasson said:

Greg7579 said:

It's not all about DR with HDR. Even images with not much DR in even light look better.

Click to expand...

If you're trying to reproduce a low dynamic range scene on a monitor, what good does it do to have the monitor have more dynamic range than the scene?

Click to expand...

True. I was thinking the same thing when I wrote that.

Again, I'm a novice at this and don't have anywhere near a full understanding of how HDR content creation and screen technology (both ends) works and how our high-res MF and FF raw files behave in LR as we view, edit and export our raw files.

Any claim I am making is suspect, and I can't define it technically. I just know that when I'm on my Dell 6K monitor at home and I click on HDR, the file looks better, especially the highlights.

I also read in an article that in LR HDR even files with even light (less DR in the scene) look better. But maybe that is wrong.

Jim, I honestly don't know and am learning here.

darinb said:

SrMi said:

How do you process and export images so that they are well viewable on SDR and HDR?

Click to expand...

There are two basic approaches.

1) You do your HDR thing, save as AVIF or whatever, and when the SDR monitor sees the file it attempts to automatically reduce the range of tones in the HDR image to fit the SDR capabilities (or your editing software provides that information, again, automatically).

2) In Lightroom and (I think) Photoshop, you have the option to modify the SDR version separately from the HDR. When you engage the HDR button in Lightroom, for example, a new adjustment panel will appear called "SDR Redition settings" which will allow you to customize the fallback SDR rendering--changes here will not affect the HDR version. It has sliders for Brightness, Contrast, Clarity, Highlights, Shadows, Whites, and Highlight Sat.

It's important to note that all of this HDR for stills stuff is new and don't assume it's all working yet, even within Lighroom. For example, when you view an HDR in Lighroom in its Develop mode all is well. When you jump out to the Library mode the photo will look awful. It can be confusing...

Step by step!

Apple, in the video I linked, talked about the advantages of their implementation of gain maps as being both simple and bi-directional, so the issue of backward compatibility is forefront in the minds of the people working on the standards.

Click to expand...

Darin,

This is all very interesting and I'm not sure any of us have a real understanding of this yet. Maybe Jim can grasp it quickly after decades as a color and digital professional paid scientist.

I'm thinking of this in pretty basic practical application (for me) terms. I have viewed and edited many raw files in LR now using the HDR on tab. I have seen what happens to both histograms. However, I don't really understand how to best edit while looking at that extended Histogram in HRD mode where I can seemingly extend the whites slider so much further than in SDR mode without blowing highlights. But if I make that edit and then view with HDR off, I blow the highlights, right? And then when I export the JPEG, what happens? Is that an HDR file or is it back to what we always have and thus makes no difference later when viewed by someone else?

Or,are JPEG files by definition non-HDR? Can a jpeg be HDR and view as an HDR on an HDR monitor?

I don't get the export part of it.

JimKasson said:

Greg7579 said:

JimKasson said:

Greg7579 said:

I have been told for years here on DPR that a blown highlight is a blown highlight, but that must not be true now because when I review my GFX raw files with HDR turned on in LR, the "blown" highlights suddenly pop back with good detail that is sort of striking, and the file takes on a more luminous looking aspect that I can't describe well.

Click to expand...

If there's good detail, and it's not detail that was invented by the raw developer, the highlight wasn't blown in the first place.

Click to expand...

Maybe. But we had no way to know

Click to expand...

Yes, we did. Rawdigger.

JimKasson said:

and didn't see it until now with HDR in LR. I don't know the tech, but you can see the result.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Jim, RawDigger of course gives us our real raw histo, as you taught me many years ago when I bought it.

But does Raw Digger have that extended HDR range histo like LR does? Or is the raw histo as displayed in raw digger the true histo no matter what editing in LR with HDR does? I guess the raw digger histo is the raw histo no matter what editing is done and the HDR is just a different (better) way to display it?

I'm not making any sense now because I don't get it yet....

Greg7579 said:

darinb said:

SrMi said:

How do you process and export images so that they are well viewable on SDR and HDR?

Click to expand...

There are two basic approaches.

1) You do your HDR thing, save as AVIF or whatever, and when the SDR monitor sees the file it attempts to automatically reduce the range of tones in the HDR image to fit the SDR capabilities (or your editing software provides that information, again, automatically).

2) In Lightroom and (I think) Photoshop, you have the option to modify the SDR version separately from the HDR. When you engage the HDR button in Lightroom, for example, a new adjustment panel will appear called "SDR Redition settings" which will allow you to customize the fallback SDR rendering--changes here will not affect the HDR version. It has sliders for Brightness, Contrast, Clarity, Highlights, Shadows, Whites, and Highlight Sat.

It's important to note that all of this HDR for stills stuff is new and don't assume it's all working yet, even within Lighroom. For example, when you view an HDR in Lighroom in its Develop mode all is well. When you jump out to the Library mode the photo will look awful. It can be confusing...

Step by step!

Apple, in the video I linked, talked about the advantages of their implementation of gain maps as being both simple and bi-directional, so the issue of backward compatibility is forefront in the minds of the people working on the standards.

Click to expand...

Darin,

This is all very interesting and I'm not sure any of us have a real understanding of this yet. Maybe Jim can grasp it quickly after decades as a color and digital professional paid scientist.

Click to expand...

Indeed, part of the reason for participating so heavily in this thread I'm not the OP but I was bout to post something on HDR that very same day, weird?) for me is to get Jim and others interested in it (and you too, Greg, to be honest!). My guess is that Jim hadn't given his full attention before this thread and he is only participating in a minimal way now because he is working 24/7 to become an expert in the topic, complete with detailed tests. And he will, quickly surpassing my basic level of understanding. That will greatly benefit us all.

Greg, I'm afraid I've cost you a bit of coin--you'll need to get a mini-LED screen after all, when you get back. You may even want to buy a MacBook Pro--I know, I know! But those screens are kick-ass great for this sort of thing. I'm at a coffee shop right now editing HDR stills...and they look amazing on this screen.

Greg7579 said:

I'm thinking of this in pretty basic practical application (for me) terms. I have viewed and edited many raw files in LR now using the HDR on tab. I have seen what happens to both histograms. However, I don't really understand how to best edit while looking at that extended Histogram in HRD mode where I can seemingly extend the whites slider so much further than in SDR mode without blowing highlights. But if I make that edit and then view with HDR off, I blow the highlights, right? And then when I export the JPEG, what happens? Is that an HDR file or is it back to what we always have and thus makes no difference later when viewed by someone else?

Or,are JPEG files by definition non-HDR? Can a jpeg be HDR and view as an HDR on an HDR monitor?

I don't get the export part of it.

Click to expand...

I don't fully get it, either. I *think* the right answer is going to be to use the file type AVIF, which is a sort of modern JPEG that allows gain maps (the trick they use to do the HDR/SDR at the same time in the file, if I understand correctly). AVIF also has a more compression technology and shrinks the files quite a bit more than JPEG (although with the addition of the gain map is gets bigger again). Photoshop files and TIFF files seem to keep the HDR stuff when exported, but those are super useful on the web, etc.

Greg7579 said:

JimKasson said:

Greg7579 said:

JimKasson said:

Greg7579 said:

I have been told for years here on DPR that a blown highlight is a blown highlight, but that must not be true now because when I review my GFX raw files with HDR turned on in LR, the "blown" highlights suddenly pop back with good detail that is sort of striking, and the file takes on a more luminous looking aspect that I can't describe well.

Click to expand...

If there's good detail, and it's not detail that was invented by the raw developer, the highlight wasn't blown in the first place.

Click to expand...

Maybe. But we had no way to know

Click to expand...

Yes, we did. Rawdigger.

Greg7579 said:

and didn't see it until now with HDR in LR. I don't know the tech, but you can see the result.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Jim, RawDigger of course gives us our real raw histo, as you taught me many years ago when I bought it.

But does Raw Digger have that extended HDR range histo like LR does? Or is the raw histo as displayed in raw digger the true histo no matter what editing in LR with HDR does?

Click to expand...

The histogram displayed in RawDigger is the true raw histogram. That data is compressed into SDR or HDR range.

If you see clipping in RawDigger, it will clip in SDR and HDR mode.

Greg7579 said:

I guess the raw digger histo is the raw histo no matter what editing is done and the HDR is just a different (better) way to display it?

I'm not making any sense now because I don't get it yet....

--
Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas
https://www.flickr.com/photos/139148982@N02/albums

Click to expand...

Greg7579 said:

JimKasson said:

Greg7579 said:

JimKasson said:

Greg7579 said:

I have been told for years here on DPR that a blown highlight is a blown highlight, but that must not be true now because when I review my GFX raw files with HDR turned on in LR, the "blown" highlights suddenly pop back with good detail that is sort of striking, and the file takes on a more luminous looking aspect that I can't describe well.

Click to expand...

If there's good detail, and it's not detail that was invented by the raw developer, the highlight wasn't blown in the first place.

Click to expand...

Maybe. But we had no way to know

Click to expand...

Yes, we did. Rawdigger.

Greg7579 said:

and didn't see it until now with HDR in LR. I don't know the tech, but you can see the result.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Jim, RawDigger of course gives us our real raw histo, as you taught me many years ago when I bought it.

Click to expand...

That's the best way to tell if the highlights in the raw file are blown. If they're not, and the highlights in the developed image are blown, then that's on the person operating the raw developer.

Greg7579 said:

But does Raw Digger have that extended HDR range histo like LR does? Or is the raw histo as displayed in raw digger the true histo no matter what editing in LR with HDR does? I guess the raw digger histo is the raw histo no matter what editing is done and the HDR is just a different (better) way to display it?

I'm not making any sense now because I don't get it yet....

Click to expand...

darinb said:

Greg7579 said:

darinb said:

SrMi said:

How do you process and export images so that they are well viewable on SDR and HDR?

Click to expand...

There are two basic approaches.

1) You do your HDR thing, save as AVIF or whatever, and when the SDR monitor sees the file it attempts to automatically reduce the range of tones in the HDR image to fit the SDR capabilities (or your editing software provides that information, again, automatically).

2) In Lightroom and (I think) Photoshop, you have the option to modify the SDR version separately from the HDR. When you engage the HDR button in Lightroom, for example, a new adjustment panel will appear called "SDR Redition settings" which will allow you to customize the fallback SDR rendering--changes here will not affect the HDR version. It has sliders for Brightness, Contrast, Clarity, Highlights, Shadows, Whites, and Highlight Sat.

It's important to note that all of this HDR for stills stuff is new and don't assume it's all working yet, even within Lighroom. For example, when you view an HDR in Lighroom in its Develop mode all is well. When you jump out to the Library mode the photo will look awful. It can be confusing...

Step by step!

Apple, in the video I linked, talked about the advantages of their implementation of gain maps as being both simple and bi-directional, so the issue of backward compatibility is forefront in the minds of the people working on the standards.

Click to expand...

Darin,

This is all very interesting and I'm not sure any of us have a real understanding of this yet. Maybe Jim can grasp it quickly after decades as a color and digital professional paid scientist.

Click to expand...

Indeed, part of the reason for participating so heavily in this thread I'm not the OP but I was bout to post something on HDR that very same day, weird?) for me is to get Jim and others interested in it (and you too, Greg, to be honest!). My guess is that Jim hadn't given his full attention before this thread and he is only participating in a minimal way now because he is working 24/7 to become an expert in the topic, complete with detailed tests. And he will, quickly surpassing my basic level of understanding. That will greatly benefit us all.

Greg, I'm afraid I've cost you a bit of coin--you'll need to get a mini-LED screen after all, when you get back. You may even want to buy a MacBook Pro--I know, I know! But those screens are kick-ass great for this sort of thing. I'm at a coffee shop right now editing HDR stills...and they look amazing on this screen.

darinb said:

I'm thinking of this in pretty basic practical application (for me) terms. I have viewed and edited many raw files in LR now using the HDR on tab. I have seen what happens to both histograms. However, I don't really understand how to best edit while looking at that extended Histogram in HRD mode where I can seemingly extend the whites slider so much further than in SDR mode without blowing highlights. But if I make that edit and then view with HDR off, I blow the highlights, right? And then when I export the JPEG, what happens? Is that an HDR file or is it back to what we always have and thus makes no difference later when viewed by someone else?

Or,are JPEG files by definition non-HDR? Can a jpeg be HDR and view as an HDR on an HDR monitor?

I don't get the export part of it.

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I don't fully get it, either. I *think* the right answer is going to be to use the file type AVIF, which is a sort of modern JPEG that allows gain maps (the trick they use to do the HDR/SDR at the same time in the file, if I understand correctly). AVIF also has a more compression technology and shrinks the files quite a bit more than JPEG (although with the addition of the gain map is gets bigger again). Photoshop files and TIFF files seem to keep the HDR stuff when exported, but those are super useful on the web, etc.

Click to expand...

Does current AVIF implementation have gain maps? I believe that only JPEGs have it at the moment (Adobe export).

darinb said:

--
Darin Boville
My photo site: www.darinboville.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/darinboville/
A Bigger Camera (blog): www.abiggercamera.com

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SrMi said:

darinb said:

Greg7579 said:

darinb said:

SrMi said:

How do you process and export images so that they are well viewable on SDR and HDR?

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There are two basic approaches.

1) You do your HDR thing, save as AVIF or whatever, and when the SDR monitor sees the file it attempts to automatically reduce the range of tones in the HDR image to fit the SDR capabilities (or your editing software provides that information, again, automatically).

2) In Lightroom and (I think) Photoshop, you have the option to modify the SDR version separately from the HDR. When you engage the HDR button in Lightroom, for example, a new adjustment panel will appear called "SDR Redition settings" which will allow you to customize the fallback SDR rendering--changes here will not affect the HDR version. It has sliders for Brightness, Contrast, Clarity, Highlights, Shadows, Whites, and Highlight Sat.

It's important to note that all of this HDR for stills stuff is new and don't assume it's all working yet, even within Lighroom. For example, when you view an HDR in Lighroom in its Develop mode all is well. When you jump out to the Library mode the photo will look awful. It can be confusing...

Step by step!

Apple, in the video I linked, talked about the advantages of their implementation of gain maps as being both simple and bi-directional, so the issue of backward compatibility is forefront in the minds of the people working on the standards.

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Darin,

This is all very interesting and I'm not sure any of us have a real understanding of this yet. Maybe Jim can grasp it quickly after decades as a color and digital professional paid scientist.

Click to expand...

Indeed, part of the reason for participating so heavily in this thread I'm not the OP but I was bout to post something on HDR that very same day, weird?) for me is to get Jim and others interested in it (and you too, Greg, to be honest!). My guess is that Jim hadn't given his full attention before this thread and he is only participating in a minimal way now because he is working 24/7 to become an expert in the topic, complete with detailed tests. And he will, quickly surpassing my basic level of understanding. That will greatly benefit us all.

Greg, I'm afraid I've cost you a bit of coin--you'll need to get a mini-LED screen after all, when you get back. You may even want to buy a MacBook Pro--I know, I know! But those screens are kick-ass great for this sort of thing. I'm at a coffee shop right now editing HDR stills...and they look amazing on this screen.

SrMi said:

I'm thinking of this in pretty basic practical application (for me) terms. I have viewed and edited many raw files in LR now using the HDR on tab. I have seen what happens to both histograms. However, I don't really understand how to best edit while looking at that extended Histogram in HRD mode where I can seemingly extend the whites slider so much further than in SDR mode without blowing highlights. But if I make that edit and then view with HDR off, I blow the highlights, right? And then when I export the JPEG, what happens? Is that an HDR file or is it back to what we always have and thus makes no difference later when viewed by someone else?

Or,are JPEG files by definition non-HDR? Can a jpeg be HDR and view as an HDR on an HDR monitor?

I don't get the export part of it.

Click to expand...

I don't fully get it, either. I *think* the right answer is going to be to use the file type AVIF, which is a sort of modern JPEG that allows gain maps (the trick they use to do the HDR/SDR at the same time in the file, if I understand correctly). AVIF also has a more compression technology and shrinks the files quite a bit more than JPEG (although with the addition of the gain map is gets bigger again). Photoshop files and TIFF files seem to keep the HDR stuff when exported, but those are super useful on the web, etc.

Click to expand...

Does current AVIF implementation have gain maps? I believe that only JPEGs have it at the moment (Adobe export).

Click to expand...

I'm not sure how it is done--I thought it used gain maps but I just Goggled and maybe not----I think that is one of the key standards debates. Hopefully, they will get this sorted out very quickly so we end much of the confusion.