antonio-salieri wrote:
Arthur Stanley Jefferson wrote:
Software (firmware upgrades) would be the subtle and gradual way to evolve the compatibility away from EF lenses.
OK, but you do see how this is a wild conspiracy theory you have, no? You are saying that instead of making newer lenses better, they will make older lenses worse than they are now.
Those hiccups being mostly unexplained random focussing errors on otherwise amazing 3rd party lenses such as the Sigma Art series.
All of these "unexplained" errors are attributable to differences between the operation of mirrorless servo AF and the one-shot DSLR AF for which those lenses were designed. The vast majority of Sigma Art lenses focus perfectly on the R5, including in servo AF mode. You are suggesting that Canon purposely added very specific instructions to ensure that a small sunset of third-party lenses has some very specific difficulty in very specific circumstances, when we know that DSLR lenses, especially third-party lenses, can sometimes be weird especially in servo, because of their motor design, the way mirrorless cameras detect distance changes and other factors?
I don’t think Canon would blatantly just switch off EF support in one single obvious move or update, as that would cause a backlash of annoyed users.
Finally, the first thing you've said that makes any sense.
No, users would realise their EF lenses that worked 4 years ago on older R bodies are now, not working so well anymore on newer R bodies. They would blame their older lenses before they blamed the most recent R body or accept it’s the price of design progress and sell their EF lenses on the secondhand market.
Lolwut. If I bought an R5iv and noticed my EF lenses worked far worse on it than on the R5 I was just using, I'd compare both and see the difference. Do you think nobody would notice if this were the case? It would be a scandal in the reviews, for sure.
They'll be free to use them, but they just won’t work as well on each successive R generation, you’ll have to buy the same lens in RF mount for best performance, it’s your choice.
The best performances come from RF lenses now, for the most part. The strategy Canon has has is clearly to just make the RF lenses... good. The RF 85 1.2 is preferable because it's better than the EF predecessor. There is no need to make the existing lens artificially inferior; it is already inferior to the new lens (not that it is a bad lens, because it's actually still good).
Not at all, the Canon made a great system, the AF alone is what is driving many to buy R bodies for their old EF lenses which work better …on current R bodies and that is great for us but bad for Canons RF lens sales.
Sure. And Canon does make money from that. But consider that the AF with older lenses was also better on new EF DSLRs than on old models. And people of course bought used lenses as well as new ones before RF. The same dynamics are there today. Canon never disabled older generations of EF lenses on new EF cameras, though they could have. As for AF, the AF on newer RF lenses can be improved in the same ways it was improved in EF lenses: by making the motors faster and more accurate. This has occurred with some RF lenses vs. their predecessors. The RF mount also has higher-speed communication, which is another avantage (this time over any EF lens). EF lenses are still great, but the RF lenses can still have actual advantages. So why make EF worse on purpose?
I see no need to get upset over this debate, I simply speculate that I would assume the enormous supply of EF lenses (that are making the purchase of expensive R bodies more palatable) will eventually eat into the sales and profits of Canon.
Only in the same way that used EF lenses ate into the sale of new EF lenses in 2018. Canon fundamentally wants to sell lenses, whether they're EF or RF. That hasn't really changed. But they're not going to force working EF lenses out of commission.
Canon hook new buyers in to the R system with the current great compatibility of EF lenses on R bodies. Many will part exchange their Dslr bodies to upgrade, and won’t look back, great
OK, but like... if the R5iii or R5iv is worse with my EF lenses (I have a lot) than my R5, don't you think this might lead me to not buy an R5iv? If a Sony camera is better with the EF lenses than a Canon one, I might switch then!
Once there are enough new R bodies in circulation, and the remaining new EF stock has been sold or replaced by a similar RF lens model, EF won’t be sold anymore.…
OK, yes, they won't keep manufacturing the EF lenses once there is no more demand for them. They've basically said that. And that makes sense. If people all wanted to buy EF lenses, Canon would keep selling them. But if it doesn't make sense economically, of course, they'll stop making them.
.. I think we’re in a sweet spot….right now…of EF lenses on R bodies…I’m on the brink of buying an R body myself.
I agree that many EF lenses on RF are pretty sweet!
but I really don’t believe that the sweet spot will last forever.
In the sense of EF lenses maybe one day feeling more outdated in comparison, maybe. Though personally I imagine I'd be satisfied by the quality of recent DSLR lenses for a good long time; they resolve really well on my R5, and 45MP is nothing to shake at. This applies especially to lenses from the 2010s. Still, not all EF lenses resolve (or focus) as well as others. New RF lenses will presumably keep coming along to improve on EF lenses, and, eventually, on other RF lenses.
.. I also expect new EF lens prices to go much higher as the run out of EF stock begins, this will also drive sales to RF mount as the prices will be closer …and who would buy EF at the price of RF?
This makes no sense. EF lenses are being discontinued due almost entirely to the shift in demand to RF lenses. With rare exceptions (lenses which were not made much to begin with and have special characteristics, especially ones that become relevant/more useful only on later camera systems). EF lenses are not going up in price upon being discontinued or replaced. The EF 135mm f/2 didn't go up in price because of the RF 135mm f/1.8 replacing it. There are still a lot on the used market which cover the present demand for the lens.
Generally speaking, EF lenses are not very rare. The exceptions (1200mm f/5.6, ultra rare; 50mm f/1.0, fairly rare) are worth more, but these are unique lenses that had very few units ever produced in the first place.
To give you a more ordinary example. I have an EF 70-200mm f/2.8 IS III (model from 2018). This lens is still being manufactured and sold new (for considerably less than its RF successor, by the way). I expect that it will be discontinued one day. But I don't expect the price to go up then, because there are a lot of Mark II and Mark III lenses out there. Sure, over time, some will break, so, there will only ever be fewer, not more, and the absolute dollar-figure prices will slowly shift with inflation, but why would EF lenses break the rule of older lenses generally getting cheaper, rather than more expensive, with time? This is even a lens which, unlike most EF lenses, has some potential advantages (depending on what you want) over its RF successor (TC compatibility, internal zoom and obviously the more flexible mount — but of course it's also significantly bigger, has a less IS and the corners are a bit less sharp). I'm willing to bet that being discontinued (whenever that happens) will not make an EF 70-200 as expensive as an RF 70-200
The main example I can think of is that vintage MF M, FS-mount/similar lenses got a bit more expensive (hardly more expensive than current AF lenses) when mirrorless became popular, because they could be adapted to mirrorless cameras and could not be adapted to most DSLRs. The supply did not increase (well, putting aside the fact that M-mount lenses are still being designed and manufactured today by Leica, Cosina-Voigtländer, various Chinese companies, etc.), but the demand increased. EF lenses remain adaptable now. Why would the demand increase? If anything, the prices of EF lenses would go down if the future Canon cameras made them artificially worse (lower potential install base), which could encourage people to buy used R5s instead of new R5iiis in some cases.
Canon want to sell lenses, for profit, they want you to upgrade, they make no money from lenses you bought 8 years ago or secondhand.
OK, but they also would make less money from camera bodies for which the reviews indicate that they've made the operation of EF lenses worse. People expect to be able to use their existing lenses when they get a new body. Canon can't change that business model because they do not have a monopoly in the camera business.
whether it’s by design evolution, progress or whatever, I believe EF will slowly become less functional, more expensive and be replaced ….enjoy it while you can
EF lenses will become less functional in comparison with the latest and greatest RF lenses. But (unless they get broken, which obviously, they can, individually) they will remain just as functional in the absolute sense tomorrow as they are today. They'll certainly be just as functional on the R5. And they should be at least as functional on future RF cameras too. There is no logical reason why they'd become as expensive as their RF successors — why would you ever pay an RF 85 1.2 price for an EF 85 1.2!?? But yes, many will individually be replaced, just not for any of the reasons you have given.
Of course, your hypothesis is totally unfalsifiable.
You've done a yeoman's work trying to cover all of the rabbit holes presented to you. And now you've finally reached the crux of this whole issue, which is people taking various situations that have very specific circumstances and then generalizing them to the point that they're too vague to recognize. They then acknowledge only these vague reasons to not trust a company while completely ignoring all of the evidence that suggests otherwise.
And you've presented a ton of evidence that flies in the face of the original wild theory. Let's just ignore that technology occasionally requires that older versions become obsolete in order to freely design better systems. Let's ignore all the times Canon has gone out of their way to make their systems backward compatible. And that's not to say it isn't done to benefit them. Making the RF mount work so well with old EF lenses was absolutely a way to help get these new cameras accepted and sold.
Canon has already put in the work to allow us to use our old EF lenses. As there are no new EF lenses coming out, continued support for existing EF lenses from camera to camera only serves to continue providing customers with the tools they need at virtually no cost to Canon. EF lenses will naturally age out of the marketplace either through failure or through better RF alternatives. And they're still making EF lenses! You can still buy them! What if they do drop support for EF lenses.....in fifty years? Even then, I'd bet money that the only reason that would happen is they had to release a new mount based on technology we can't even fathom yet.
