APS C VS FULL FRAME

mysteryman44

Senior Member
Messages
1,323
Reaction score
791
Hello, What is the difference or advantages of owning a full frame camera instead of the apes c . I own a Nik9n z 50 mirrorless. Should I have bought a Nikon full frame. Also I guess it does not look like there would be a difference in print enlargements. My camera is 20.1 megapixels. How big of an enlargement can I go. Thanks.
 
Yes, however in general, it's better to print at 300ppi than 150ppi. If one doesn't need a high resolution camera, fine - but it'd be a bad advice if given as a general rule: "you don't need more than 20Mp".
Would you feel better if he said something like "you don't need a camera with more than 20 mp because you can always resample your image or crop of the image to 300 PPI (or other - depending upon the printer) and deliver a high quality print" ?
Up-sampling is overrated ;)
 
Yes, however in general, it's better to print at 300ppi than 150ppi. If one doesn't need a high resolution camera, fine - but it'd be a bad advice if given as a general rule: "you don't need more than 20Mp".
Would you feel better if he said something like "you don't need a camera with more than 20 mp because you can always resample your image or crop of the image to 300 PPI (or other - depending upon the printer) and deliver a high quality print" ?
Up-sampling is overrated ;)
In what way? Of course it doesn't increase detail or artistic image quality, but for the purpose of the discussion, it result in a good quality print
 
FF has less noise at higher ISO, a greater dynamic range, wider focal length lenses and it's easier to get shallow DOF. The advantages of APSC are it's easier to get deeper DOF and better for telephoto "reach". Having owned an APSC previously and now a FF for me the main advantage of FF is the ability to have higher resolution sensors.

--
Tom
 
Last edited:
FF has less noise at higher ISO, a greater dynamic range, wider focal length lenses and it's easier to get shallow DOF. The advantages of APSC are it's easier to get deeper DOF and better for telephoto "reach". Having owned an APSC previously and now a FF for me the main advantage of FF is the ability to have higher resolution sensors.
 
“Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Leave them alone.”

Ayn Rand
 
FF has less noise at higher ISO, a greater dynamic range, wider focal length lenses and it's easier to get shallow DOF. The advantages of APSC are it's easier to get deeper DOF and better for telephoto "reach". Having owned an APSC previously and now a FF for me the main advantage of FF is the ability to have higher resolution sensors.
Question. Are the effects of diffraction evident at brighter apertures in APS-C vs full frame? Say f/16 in full frame vs f/11 in APS-C? If so, does this offset any depth of field advantage (assuming the effects of diffraction are something to be avoided)?
For an equivalent DOF, diffraction is the same. The disadvantage of having to stop down a FF more for the same DOF is the requirement of either a higher ISO or slower shutter speed. If shooting fast-moving subjects the slower shutter speed could be a problem or the higher ISO would negate the FF noise advantage.
 
My wife has APS-C. I have Full Frame. There’s a ton of overlap in usage.

In terms of resolution, her camera has more megapixel’s than mine, but it’s the highest resolution APS-C sensor currently made at 32.5 megapixels. I’m at a lowly 26 or so. ☹️
Although it is popular to think of resolution as being pixel count, it is technically incorrect.

Still, with more MP and a smaller sensor, your wife's does beat yours handsomely in terms of lp/mm.
 
FF has less noise at higher ISO, a greater dynamic range, wider focal length lenses and it's easier to get shallow DOF. The advantages of APSC are it's easier to get deeper DOF and better for telephoto "reach". Having owned an APSC previously and now a FF for me the main advantage of FF is the ability to have higher resolution sensors.
Question. Are the effects of diffraction evident at brighter apertures in APS-C vs full frame? Say f/16 in full frame vs f/11 in APS-C? If so, does this offset any depth of field advantage (assuming the effects of diffraction are something to be avoided)?
For an equivalent DOF, diffraction is the same. The disadvantage of having to stop down a FF more for the same DOF is the requirement of either a higher ISO or slower shutter speed. If shooting fast-moving subjects the slower shutter speed could be a problem or the higher ISO would negate the FF noise advantage.
Negate the noise advantage, but would it actually turn it into a disadvantage? If not, then we’re back to weight and cost being the only true advantages of APS-C. Outside of a pocket of really wide angle and shallow depth of field, either format can equal the results of the other.

Don’t get me wrong. For many (myself included), weight and size are compelling advantages. Just using the EF-M 18-150 vs my RF 24-240 - I mean that’s a huge size savings and half the price. And our M6II is an excellent camera with results better than our RP in many cases. Top APS-C vs entry Full Frame, but still.
People talk of a pixels on subject APS-C advantage. But it’s really a pixels on subject for the cost advantage. You can do it will full frame. But it’ll cost you potentially thousands more.
 
Last edited:
Negate the noise advantage, but would it actually turn it into a disadvantage? If not, then we’re back to weight and cost being the only true advantages of APS-C. Outside of a pocket of really wide angle and shallow depth of field, either format can equal the results of the other.

Don’t get me wrong. For many (myself included), weight and size are compelling advantages. Just using the EF-M 18-150 vs my RF 24-240 - I mean that’s a huge size savings and half the price. And our M6II is an excellent camera with results better than our RP in many cases. Top APS-C vs entry Full Frame, but still.
People talk of a pixels on subject APS-C advantage. But it’s really a pixels on subject for the cost advantage. You can do it will full frame. But it’ll cost you potentially thousands more.
As I said previously it's possible for FF cameras to have a much higher resolution. It's the primary reason I replaced my 24mp APSC camera with a 42mp FF.
 
Negate the noise advantage, but would it actually turn it into a disadvantage? If not, then we’re back to weight and cost being the only true advantages of APS-C. Outside of a pocket of really wide angle and shallow depth of field, either format can equal the results of the other.

Don’t get me wrong. For many (myself included), weight and size are compelling advantages. Just using the EF-M 18-150 vs my RF 24-240 - I mean that’s a huge size savings and half the price. And our M6II is an excellent camera with results better than our RP in many cases. Top APS-C vs entry Full Frame, but still.
People talk of a pixels on subject APS-C advantage. But it’s really a pixels on subject for the cost advantage. You can do it will full frame. But it’ll cost you potentially thousands more.
As I said previously it's possible for FF cameras to have a much higher resolution. It's the primary reason I replaced my 24MP [APS-C] camera with a 42MP FF.
But see https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66098443

--
It's all in the numbers ...
 
Last edited:
FF has less noise at higher ISO, a greater dynamic range, wider focal length lenses and it's easier to get shallow DOF. The advantages of APSC are it's easier to get deeper DOF and better for telephoto "reach". Having owned an APSC previously and now a FF for me the main advantage of FF is the ability to have higher resolution sensors.
Question. Are the effects of diffraction evident at brighter apertures in APS-C vs full frame? Say f/16 in full frame vs f/11 in APS-C? If so, does this offset any depth of field advantage (assuming the effects of diffraction are something to be avoided)?
At the same angle of view, same aperture diameter, same shutter speed, and same subject, you get the "same" result.

By "same" result I mean:
  • Same diffraction
  • Same overall image noise
  • Same depth of field
  • Same motion blur
Thus shooting a full frame with a 100mm lens at f/8, ISO 800 and 1/125 shutter yields the same results at a 2X crop body with a 50mm lens at f/4, ISO 200, with a 1/125 shutter.

The advantage of the larger format is that you have the option of wider aperture diameters. These wider diameters yield both shallower depth of field and better low light performance (the two are tied together).

.

From a practical perspective, crop bodies don't really offer a depth of field advantage. It just seems that way if you are choosing your aperture as if the crop body was full frame.

Most common lenses stop down past the point where diffraction is limiting sharpness. While the minimum achievable aperture diameter might be smaller on a crop body, by that point diffraction is significant, and that's going to be the limiting factor of depth of field. With too much diffraction your depth of field is zero. Everything in the image might be too blurry to be considered "in focus".

.

Unless you are shooting wide open on a full frame, you can get the same results with an APS-C crop body.
 
Negate the noise advantage, but would it actually turn it into a disadvantage? If not, then we’re back to weight and cost being the only true advantages of APS-C. Outside of a pocket of really wide angle and shallow depth of field, either format can equal the results of the other.

Don’t get me wrong. For many (myself included), weight and size are compelling advantages. Just using the EF-M 18-150 vs my RF 24-240 - I mean that’s a huge size savings and half the price. And our M6II is an excellent camera with results better than our RP in many cases. Top APS-C vs entry Full Frame, but still.
People talk of a pixels on subject APS-C advantage. But it’s really a pixels on subject for the cost advantage. You can do it will full frame. But it’ll cost you potentially thousands more.
As I said previously it's possible for FF cameras to have a much higher resolution. It's the primary reason I replaced my 24MP [APS-C] camera with a 42MP FF.
But see https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/66098443
I have to disagree with that post. I'm not talking about pixel density which has it's own drawbacks relative to noise. More noise requires more noise reduction which in turn reduces effective resolution. There's no way around it that a 42mp FF camera will reveal more detail than a 24mp APSC camera. That is a fact.
 
<>
Naturally, I'm 100% sure some experts, on these forums, will disagree with everything I've said. People have to justify their full frame, high megapixel cameras, and their new computers and monitors that can't display the resolution produced by their camera sensors. :-)
It does often seem that way!

To keep a balance, I still like my 3.4MP 1.7 crop DSLR and my 2K sRGB monitor, for both of which my Dell Core i5 is almost overkill ...
 
I have to disagree with that post. I'm not talking about pixel density which has it's own drawbacks relative to noise. More noise requires more noise reduction which in turn reduces effective resolution. There's no way around it that a 42mp FF camera will reveal more detail than a 24mp APSC camera. That is a fact.
Actually, in an 8" by 10" print, the 42 mp full frame camera may not reveal more detail that a 12 mp APS-C camera. The reason is that the limiting factor is the resolution of the printer and the human eye. You're not going to see more than 10 megapixels of detail in that 8" by 10" print.

Now if you are using an ultra high resolution printer, and your viewers are using a magnifying glass to view details of the print, then they should be able to see a difference from the 42 megapixel capture (assuming the lenses, focus, and camera shake are not the limiting factor).
 
Question. Are the effects of diffraction evident at brighter apertures in APS-C vs full frame? Say f/16 in full frame vs f/11 in APS-C? If so, does this offset any depth of field advantage (assuming the effects of diffraction are something to be avoided)?
Diffraction has become less of an issue. At least that is the case for my Canon cameras.

A few years ago I shot a 24 mp APS-C camera. Softening due to diffraction was quite noticeable at f/16. I shoot a lot of macro where DOF is a major concern. I often shoot at f/20. The better DOF was worth losing some sharpness due to diffraction. Certainly there was a compromise to consider every time I shot.

When I got my 32.5 mp APS-C Canon 90D, I expected diffraction to be much more of an issue. In fact a diffraction calculator indicated there would be considerable softening at f/11. I could not see any softening at f/11, or f/16, or f/20 or even at f/22. I shot a large studio scene about a yard wide. I had included the page of a magazine. Even at f/22, I could clearly see an ink smudge smaller than a period mark on the magazine. After further investigation, I found that the lack of softening was due to using a diffraction correction slider when opening my files with DPP4 software. When I turned the DC slider off, the softening was visible. I cannot understand how a software algorithm can overcome the physics involved with diffraction but it works.

Next I tried to apply the new DPP4 software to raw files from my older Canon cameras. Unfortunately there was no improvement. Anyway I now shoot at f/20 or tighter with no concern about diffraction.
 
It's generally one stop (for same generation technology). People can decide if that's significant or not.
<>

In order to get the one stop advantage, you need to use a wider aperture diameter on the full frame and live with the shallower depth of field. <>
Good to read stuff by someone who actually knows the significance of aperture diameter as opposed to the dumbed-down (normalized) f-number.

Some good stuff here by Merklinger too:

 
Actually, in an 8" by 10" print, the 42 mp full frame camera may not reveal more detail that a 12 mp APS-C camera. The reason is that the limiting factor is the resolution of the printer and the human eye. You're not going to see more than 10 megapixels of detail in that 8" by 10" print.

Now if you are using an ultra high resolution printer, and your viewers are using a magnifying glass to view details of the print, then they should be able to see a difference from the 42 megapixel capture (assuming the lenses, focus, and camera shake are not the limiting factor).
I won't disagree with any of that but I'm talking about an absolute potential resolution that can make a difference in huge prints or a heavily cropped image. I love 42mp for the ability to crop and maintain a high enough resolution for large prints or pixel peeping examination. I also consider an 8x10 print small. I can do extreme cropping on a 42mp FF image and still have plenty for a good 8x10 print.

Before



68db9163db524227a01f0cb95bced576.jpg


After

7635d3631ece432eb8fb1d21d1a551ff.jpg


I made an 8x10 print of this that looked great.

--
Tom
 
Last edited:
Actually, in an 8" by 10" print, the 42 mp full frame camera may not reveal more detail that a 12 mp APS-C camera. The reason is that the limiting factor is the resolution of the printer and the human eye. You're not going to see more than 10 megapixels of detail in that 8" by 10" print.

Now if you are using an ultra high resolution printer, and your viewers are using a magnifying glass to view details of the print, then they should be able to see a difference from the 42 megapixel capture (assuming the lenses, focus, and camera shake are not the limiting factor).
I won't disagree with any of that but I'm talking about an absolute potential resolution that can make a difference in huge prints or a heavily cropped image. I love 42mp for the ability to crop and maintain a high enough resolution for large prints or pixel peeping examination. I also consider an 8x10 print small. I can do extreme cropping on a 42mp FF image and still have plenty for a good 8x10 print.

Before

68db9163db524227a01f0cb95bced576.jpg


After

7635d3631ece432eb8fb1d21d1a551ff.jpg


I made an 8x10 print of this that looked great.
It sounds like 42 megapixels makes sense for you. Your images rely on fine details, you make very large prints, and those prints are viewed at close distances.

Not everyone falls into that category.
 
Actually, in an 8" by 10" print, the 42 mp full frame camera may not reveal more detail that a 12 mp APS-C camera. The reason is that the limiting factor is the resolution of the printer and the human eye. You're not going to see more than 10 megapixels of detail in that 8" by 10" print.

Now if you are using an ultra high resolution printer, and your viewers are using a magnifying glass to view details of the print, then they should be able to see a difference from the 42 megapixel capture (assuming the lenses, focus, and camera shake are not the limiting factor).
I won't disagree with any of that but I'm talking about an absolute potential resolution that can make a difference in huge prints or a heavily cropped image. I love 42mp for the ability to crop and maintain a high enough resolution for large prints or pixel peeping examination. I also consider an 8x10 print small. I can do extreme cropping on a 42mp FF image and still have plenty for a good 8x10 print.

Before

68db9163db524227a01f0cb95bced576.jpg


After

7635d3631ece432eb8fb1d21d1a551ff.jpg


I made an 8x10 print of this that looked great.
This is most refreshing!! It is a so nice to see a real image to illustrate your point clearly with little, but useful, prose. All of the other "photographers" seem more intent on providing that passed their highschool English composition exams. I hoped that people making strong statements about photography could illustrate exactly with images along with necessary verbal and description. I begin to question if they actually can do what they verbally espoused.

--
Charles Darwin: "ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
tony
 
This is most refreshing!! It is a so nice to see a real image to illustrate your point clearly with little, but useful, prose. All of the other "photographers" seem more intent on providing that passed their highschool English composition exams. I hoped that people making strong statements about photography could illustrate exactly with images along with necessary verbal and description. I begin to question if they actually can do what they verbally espoused.
Thank You. Due to my technical background when writing I like to say as much as I can with as few words as possible. A writer I am not.

--
Tom
 
Last edited:

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top