Sony A7IV (eye) autofocus problems - report here

Docno · Feb 23, 2022

rmcohen said:
pollup said:

rmcohen said:

Docno said:

brandagnostickk said:

Docno said:

Funny how there was another thread with people saying they weren't experiencing your problem... with images included. Of course, as I hope you know, you can't really prove the null hypothesis. If I offer images without the problem, someone will say I'm not shooting under the right conditions etc.

Click to expand...

I talked about evidence, not anecdotal claims and random single photos which could have been done with any old manual film camera.

The problem here is the much too high quota of AF failures. Nobody claims that the A7IV AF is so bad it never ever hits. So one needs a series.

Feel free to support your claim with 1 minute of effort:

Shoot a close up* real human face or cat face with a F1.4 or F1.2 lens using continuous AF wide open and a series of non-interrupted shots, say 15 to 30 images in a 3-10 seconds. Publish the ooC full res JPG images with unstripped full metadata on a dropbox or similar, so everyone here neutrally can inspect them in detail.

*=What type of framing you need to copy is this: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65895050 or https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65893421 or https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65885870

It is very easy to prove an AF consistently nails focus on the iris using the above approach with a little series of sequential sample images.

Just do it.

In a separate thread though.

Click to expand...

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65909516
old post, but an f1.8 like your first link and close up of the eye shot in series. Focus not on nose or eyebrows as you can see. Time for bed

Click to expand...

I can't speak for others, but this is not the clarity that I would expect from the equipment we're talking about. You may claim that my expectations are too high, but I can counter that yours are too low.

Please see my shot several posts previously. This is what I would expect to be able to achieve on a regular basis with this equipment using a modicum of care.

Click to expand...

I just checked Docno's cropped shots, and the focus is on the iris, I can tell because the reflections are sharp, so for testing purposes, it's important to have such reflections because the iris itself can be naturally blurry. So I'm not seeing anything wrong there, well there's a shot with motion blur, but that's not an AF problem.

Click to expand...

What I consider sharp versus what you consider sharp:

OK, so taking the same crop of mine that you used, I have lifted the shadows and added some contrast so the reflections in the iris can be seen better. As you can see, there is sharp detail in the reflection (you can see lights and items in the room) that proves focus was on the surface of the iris. Look at the eyebrow ... clearly blurred. As are other features outside of the plane of focus (the eyeball).

Now, some people will say 'well, you can get properly focused shots occasionally' - this is an image you chose from my set to ostensibly demonstrate lack of proper focus. I think this image below shows the focus was bang-on.

shutter22 · Feb 23, 2022

Hey Docno

Lets swap.. I will give you my new copy of A7iv .... and you give me yours with that working eye focusing in close up ... LOL

danardi · Feb 23, 2022

rmcohen said:
danardi said:

rmcohen said:

Repair Update:

(It's for an A7C, but I was having the exact same front-focusing issue as the A7IV.)

The camera just came back today and the repair ticket says the following services were performed:

"Sensor repaired to be parallel

Complete cleaning including image sensor

Latest firmware version to be installed 2.0

A complete repair and return to all factory specifications."

(Note that I already had firmware 2.0 installed!)

After running about 100 head shots today, all I can say is that the results are amazing! Whereas before I would get about a 20-30% hit rate, I'm now getting 80%.

I've tried a number of focus area settings and while most do OK, I think I get the best results from the various spot settings. There's no question that lower light situations produce much more front-focusing. The daylight shots were just great, less so with the nighttime shots. I would like to see low-light performance improved in a firmware update.

I know we've all had theories about chips and firmware, but at the moment, I'm pretty well satisfied with the repair route.

Most of the daylight shots are as sharp as this one:

"Be curious, not judgmental"
-Walt Whitman

Click to expand...

Can you share tests pic in the same contest of the "bad" one?

Click to expand...

If you look in this thread about 10 posts prior to this one, I uploaded two shots taken prior to the "repair". They were shot only seconds apart under the exact same conditions.

I well know your shots before the repair, I'm asking for some samples in the same condition after repair. The only one you had shared is too different in the subject pose to spoke about an improvement

Docno · Feb 24, 2022

shutter22 said:
Hey Docno

Lets swap.. I will give you my new copy of A7iv .... and you give me yours with that working eye focusing in close up ... LOL

Would be happy to, but to ensure safe delivery, I'd prefer to bring it to you in person. So I'll have to add in the cost of return airfare (from Singapore). Deal?

Seriously, my only point from the start has been that this problem doesn't seem to be affecting everyone. Some people here insist that it does... that one is lying or incompetent if you don't experience a consistent AF problem. They even demand that one upload multiple full-size images when nobody else is doing that. I figured the series of 100% crops as I've provided should suffice to make the point. I remain agnostic as to whether there is a real, broadly-experienced eye AF problem or not. I can only be sure that I don't seem to be experiencing it myself and that I am not alone in that...

rmcohen · Feb 24, 2022

danardi said:
rmcohen said:

danardi said:

rmcohen said:

Repair Update:

(It's for an A7C, but I was having the exact same front-focusing issue as the A7IV.)

The camera just came back today and the repair ticket says the following services were performed:

"Sensor repaired to be parallel

Complete cleaning including image sensor

Latest firmware version to be installed 2.0

A complete repair and return to all factory specifications."

(Note that I already had firmware 2.0 installed!)

After running about 100 head shots today, all I can say is that the results are amazing! Whereas before I would get about a 20-30% hit rate, I'm now getting 80%.

I've tried a number of focus area settings and while most do OK, I think I get the best results from the various spot settings. There's no question that lower light situations produce much more front-focusing. The daylight shots were just great, less so with the nighttime shots. I would like to see low-light performance improved in a firmware update.

I know we've all had theories about chips and firmware, but at the moment, I'm pretty well satisfied with the repair route.

Most of the daylight shots are as sharp as this one:

"Be curious, not judgmental"
-Walt Whitman

Click to expand...

Can you share tests pic in the same contest of the "bad" one?

Click to expand...

If you look in this thread about 10 posts prior to this one, I uploaded two shots taken prior to the "repair". They were shot only seconds apart under the exact same conditions.

Click to expand...

I well know your shots before the repair, I'm asking for some samples in the same condition after repair. The only one you had shared is too different in the subject pose to spoke about an improvement

These are both using Wide area AF taken a few seconds from each other:

The biggest benefit I've seen from the "repair" is that shots are now consistent one to the next. I couldn't count on that before.

--
"Be curious, not judgmental"
-Walt Whitman

rmcohen · Feb 24, 2022

rmcohen said:
danardi said:

rmcohen said:

danardi said:

rmcohen said:

Repair Update:

(It's for an A7C, but I was having the exact same front-focusing issue as the A7IV.)

The camera just came back today and the repair ticket says the following services were performed:

"Sensor repaired to be parallel

Complete cleaning including image sensor

Latest firmware version to be installed 2.0

A complete repair and return to all factory specifications."

(Note that I already had firmware 2.0 installed!)

After running about 100 head shots today, all I can say is that the results are amazing! Whereas before I would get about a 20-30% hit rate, I'm now getting 80%.

I've tried a number of focus area settings and while most do OK, I think I get the best results from the various spot settings. There's no question that lower light situations produce much more front-focusing. The daylight shots were just great, less so with the nighttime shots. I would like to see low-light performance improved in a firmware update.

I know we've all had theories about chips and firmware, but at the moment, I'm pretty well satisfied with the repair route.

Most of the daylight shots are as sharp as this one:

"Be curious, not judgmental"
-Walt Whitman

Click to expand...

Can you share tests pic in the same contest of the "bad" one?

Click to expand...

If you look in this thread about 10 posts prior to this one, I uploaded two shots taken prior to the "repair". They were shot only seconds apart under the exact same conditions.

Click to expand...

I well know your shots before the repair, I'm asking for some samples in the same condition after repair. The only one you had shared is too different in the subject pose to spoke about an improvement

Click to expand...

These are both using Wide area AF taken a few seconds from each other:

The biggest benefit I've seen from the "repair" is that shots are now consistent one to the next. I couldn't count on that before.

Made a mistake here. These are not at the same f-stop. Will resubmit shortly.

--
"Be curious, not judgmental"
-Walt Whitman

rmcohen · Feb 24, 2022

danardi said:
rmcohen said:

danardi said:

rmcohen said:

Repair Update:

(It's for an A7C, but I was having the exact same front-focusing issue as the A7IV.)

The camera just came back today and the repair ticket says the following services were performed:

"Sensor repaired to be parallel

Complete cleaning including image sensor

Latest firmware version to be installed 2.0

A complete repair and return to all factory specifications."

(Note that I already had firmware 2.0 installed!)

After running about 100 head shots today, all I can say is that the results are amazing! Whereas before I would get about a 20-30% hit rate, I'm now getting 80%.

I've tried a number of focus area settings and while most do OK, I think I get the best results from the various spot settings. There's no question that lower light situations produce much more front-focusing. The daylight shots were just great, less so with the nighttime shots. I would like to see low-light performance improved in a firmware update.

I know we've all had theories about chips and firmware, but at the moment, I'm pretty well satisfied with the repair route.

Most of the daylight shots are as sharp as this one:

"Be curious, not judgmental"
-Walt Whitman

Click to expand...

Can you share tests pic in the same contest of the "bad" one?

Click to expand...

If you look in this thread about 10 posts prior to this one, I uploaded two shots taken prior to the "repair". They were shot only seconds apart under the exact same conditions.

Click to expand...

I well know your shots before the repair, I'm asking for some samples in the same condition after repair. The only one you had shared is too different in the subject pose to spoke about an improvement

So here are shots at F1.2 instead of the previous shots. The first two are with AF area set to Flexible Spot L and the second two are set to Wide:

You'll notice that the Wide shots have both missed focus. (But at least it's consistent now and I'll know to avoid Wide and Zone when doing these kinds of shots.) I think that the Eye AF algorithm is weak in general, but is mitigated sufficiently in the various Spot settings. i.e., less area to have to make decisions in.

--
"Be curious, not judgmental"
-Walt Whitman

schildzilla · Feb 24, 2022

For your information. Not as official as we hoped, but at least visible to the public:

https://www.sony.de/electronics/wech...eviews-ratings (expand the reviews and search for "eyeAF")

danardi said:
ANSWER FROM SONY SUPPORT TEAM
21.02.2022
Hi AdrianPhotography,

Thank you for your feedback.
We're sorry to learn that you're experiencing an issue with the EyeAF and there's noise on the pics more than usual.
We're aware of the issue with the EyeAF and our engineers are working on a software update to resolve the issue.
Having read your feedback about the noise, we would like to be able to offer some assistance, so please don't hesitate to contact us using the details here: https://bit.ly/2VBcJwW.

Hana @Sony UK

Here is a screenshot of that review:

Docno · Feb 24, 2022

I’m curious… do you also have issues if you are closer to your subject?

rmcohen · Feb 24, 2022

Docno said:
I’m curious… do you also have issues if you are closer to your subject?

Closer seems to be much better, although very close seems to soften just a bit:

--
"Be curious, not judgmental"
-Walt Whitman

danardi · Feb 24, 2022

rmcohen said:
You'll notice that the Wide shots have both missed focus. (But at least it's consistent now and I'll know to avoid Wide and Zone when doing these kinds of shots.) I think that the Eye AF algorithm is weak in general, but is mitigated sufficiently in the various Spot settings. i.e., less area to have to make decisions in.

so.. at the end of the story after "repair" you have consistent fail :-D

rmcohen said:
Closer seems to be much better, although very close seems to soften just a bit:

It is obvious that when the pupil of the eye occupies a larger part of the frame the error is much less: the more AF sensor (from the matrix) you can include in your "subject", the more accurate will be the result

rmcohen · Feb 25, 2022

danardi said:
rmcohen said:

You'll notice that the Wide shots have both missed focus. (But at least it's consistent now and I'll know to avoid Wide and Zone when doing these kinds of shots.) I think that the Eye AF algorithm is weak in general, but is mitigated sufficiently in the various Spot settings. i.e., less area to have to make decisions in.

Click to expand...

so.. at the end of the story after "repair" you have consistent fail :-D

rmcohen said:

Closer seems to be much better, although very close seems to soften just a bit:

Click to expand...

It is obvious that when the pupil of the eye occupies a larger part of the frame the error is much less: the more AF sensor (from the matrix) you can include in your "subject", the more accurate will be the result

Here's a third-party app analyzing one of those Wide AF shots that Docno requested above. The camera finds the face great, finds the eye perfectly, focuses on the eyebrows:

Consistently!

--
"Be curious, not judgmental"
-Walt Whitman

rmcohen · Feb 26, 2022

Here's a series of shots that I can replicate now pretty easily on my A7C. Note that the eyes in the first shot, where the plane of the eyes is parallel to the plane of the lens, are notably softer than the other two shots. The angled shots yield a hit rate of nearly 100%. The face-on shot, maybe 20-30%.

Could be an interesting test for A7IV owners, those that have the issue as well as those that don't.

--
"Be curious, not judgmental"
-Walt Whitman

brandagnostickk · Feb 27, 2022

It's looking like the last bastions of denialism fall:

brandagnostickk said:
After using it for few days, I've started to encounter this weird EyeAf focusing issue, every few shots I had more front focus or back focus than acceptable hits, like 6 out of 10 were miss focused, on eyebrows or nose. That happened on wide aperture from 1.8 to 2.8 even 4. It happened on different focusing zones when eye af was priority. As this wasn't bad enough, the focus box confirmed focus on one eye and to find out that the other eye was more in focus, than the eye that should have been but was not. Seems there are more people encountered this issue, sadly the camera became unreliable for my use.

Response From Sony support team 21/02/2022:

Hi AdrianPhotography,

Thank you for your feedback.
We're sorry to learn that you're experiencing an issue with the EyeAF and there's noise on the pics more than usual.
We're aware of the issue with the EyeAF and our engineers are working on a software update to resolve the issue.
Having read your feedback about the noise, we would like to be able to offer some assistance, so please don't hesitate to contact us using the details here: https://bit.ly/2VBcJwW.

Hana @Sony UK

Loading…

www.sony.ie

If the problem wasn't existent in 100% of cameras there would be not firmware fix for 100% of cameras and instead they'd just repair individual cameras.

The more pressure the less slow the fix will likely come.

Docno · Feb 27, 2022

brandagnostickk said:
It's looking like the last bastions of denialism fall:

brandagnostickk said:

After using it for few days, I've started to encounter this weird EyeAf focusing issue, every few shots I had more front focus or back focus than acceptable hits, like 6 out of 10 were miss focused, on eyebrows or nose. That happened on wide aperture from 1.8 to 2.8 even 4. It happened on different focusing zones when eye af was priority. As this wasn't bad enough, the focus box confirmed focus on one eye and to find out that the other eye was more in focus, than the eye that should have been but was not. Seems there are more people encountered this issue, sadly the camera became unreliable for my use.

Response From Sony support team 21/02/2022:

Hi AdrianPhotography,

Thank you for your feedback.
We're sorry to learn that you're experiencing an issue with the EyeAF and there's noise on the pics more than usual.
We're aware of the issue with the EyeAF and our engineers are working on a software update to resolve the issue.
Having read your feedback about the noise, we would like to be able to offer some assistance, so please don't hesitate to contact us using the details here: https://bit.ly/2VBcJwW.

Hana @Sony UK

Click to expand...

https://www.sony.ie/electronics/interchangeable-lens-cameras/ilce-7m4/reviews-ratings

If the problem wasn't existent in 100% of cameras there would be not firmware fix for 100% of cameras and instead they'd just repair individual cameras.

The more pressure the less slow the fix will likely come.

Loading…

store.sony.com.sg

Except here are 40 reviews from outside of Europe with not one mentioning eye AF as a problem. Interesting no? Certainly can’t make the claim the problem exists in all cameras. There may be a firmware fix, but it it’s possible it will only apply to certain serial numbers (as has happened in the past). I’m not seeing this issue in Asia, where I live…

Razewa · Feb 27, 2022

brandagnostickk said:
It's looking like the last bastions of denialism fall:

brandagnostickk said:

After using it for few days, I've started to encounter this weird EyeAf focusing issue, every …

Click to expand...

If the problem wasn't existent in 100% of cameras there would be not firmware fix for 100% of cameras and instead they'd just repair individual cameras.

The more pressure the less slow the fix will likely come.

The Polish Sony support has also confirmed the Eyeaf error. I don't care what any reviewers or influencers write who haven't seen the error. I and all others concerned want the error to be fixed as soon as possible. Until that moment, I would like to see more publication on the net about this eyeaf error.

Docno · Feb 27, 2022

Razewa said:
brandagnostickk said:

It's looking like the last bastions of denialism fall:

Razewa said:

After using it for few days, I've started to encounter this weird EyeAf focusing issue, every …

Click to expand...

If the problem wasn't existent in 100% of cameras there would be not firmware fix for 100% of cameras and instead they'd just repair individual cameras.

The more pressure the less slow the fix will likely come.

Click to expand...

The Polish Sony support has also confirmed the Eyeaf error. I don't care what any reviewers or influencers write who haven't seen the error. I and all others concerned want the error to be fixed as soon as possible. Until that moment, I would like to see more publication on the net about this eyeaf error.

Sony Germany does not confirm: https://www.facebook.com/groups/sonya7m4eyeafissues/permalink/637739564182016/

Seems that there has yet to be coordinated response and recognition from Sony. Makes one wonder what’s going on in the most important location, Sony HQ in Japan…

Docno · Feb 27, 2022

rmcohen said:
Here's a series of shots that I can replicate now pretty easily on my A7C. Note that the eyes in the first shot, where the plane of the eyes is parallel to the plane of the lens, are notably softer than the other two shots. The angled shots yield a hit rate of nearly 100%. The face-on shot, maybe 20-30%.

Could be an interesting test for A7IV owners, those that have the issue as well as those that don't.

As mentioned earlier, sharpness of reflection on the iris is a good indicator of focus.

Tried to get straight on, but was slightly off... very shallow DOF has her left eye a little sharper than the right (again, based on reflections)

More angled - reflections still sharp ... I can actually recognise the restaurant patio

OK, this time it caught the eyelashes, but I'm not sure it's realistic to expect otherwise. I was more amazed eye AF works in profile

OK, no irises to see here, folks... but again, impressive that it still gets the eyelashes in focus.

These shots are representative of what I'm getting... close to 100% hit rate, with sharp reflections in the eye.

rmcohen · Feb 27, 2022

Docno said:
rmcohen said:

Here's a series of shots that I can replicate now pretty easily on my A7C. Note that the eyes in the first shot, where the plane of the eyes is parallel to the plane of the lens, are notably softer than the other two shots. The angled shots yield a hit rate of nearly 100%. The face-on shot, maybe 20-30%.

Could be an interesting test for A7IV owners, those that have the issue as well as those that don't.

Click to expand...

As mentioned earlier, sharpness of reflection on the iris is a good indicator of focus.

Tried to get straight on, but was slightly off... very shallow DOF has her left eye a little sharper than the right (again, based on reflections)

More angled - reflections still sharp ... I can actually recognise the restaurant patio

OK, this time it caught the eyelashes, but I'm not sure it's realistic to expect otherwise. I was more amazed eye AF works in profile

OK, no irises to see here, folks... but again, impressive that it still gets the eyelashes in focus.

These shots are representative of what I'm getting... close to 100% hit rate, with sharp reflections in the eye.

These aren't bad, which would point to hardware differences.

(I use the blood vessels in the white of the eye as my touchstone. The 50 GM can deliver them perfectly.)

Do you have anything brighter than an F1.8 that you can try?

--
"Be curious, not judgmental"
-Walt Whitman

Docno · Feb 27, 2022

Unfortunately, I don't have anything faster than 1.8.

I'm not sure if this page has been linked here before: (4) Sony A7IV eyeAF issues | Facebook But a number of people (not all) are suggesting that it may indeed be a hardware issue to do with the quality of the Exmor processor. The suggestion is that Sony kept all the good processors for the A1 and had laxer QA requirements for processors going into the A7IV due to the chip shortage. Interestingly--and not mentioned yet in this thread, I believe--there were a few early reports from some A1 users of the same eye AF troubles.

I'm based in Asia and received my pre-ordered unit in mid December ... might be a different batch from the ones that made it to the US and Europe or perhaps I just got lucky. Some people on that page are saying they returned their camera and that their replacement was better. Others found a replacement to be no better. Still a mystery...

Sony A7IV (eye) autofocus problems - report here

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