How good are these IBIS systems?

Started 2 months ago | Discussions thread
lokatz
OP lokatz Senior Member • Posts: 2,456
Re: How were the tests conducted?
1

Smitty2 wrote:

lokatz wrote:

Smitty2 wrote:

From a rough translation:

"The Nikon Z 7II positively overwhelmed us. According to Nikon, the camera's internal image stabilization is able, together with the optical stabilization, to allow exposure times that are up to five light value levels longer. In the practical test, with the Nikkor Z 70-200mm VR S at 200mm, we even took very sharp pictures from the hand at 0.6s, i.e. at seven light value levels."

But the NR blurb doesn't explain how they conducted this test. The only bit of info we gather is they seem to have done part of the test by hand. But hands shake at different rates in different magnitudes at different times.

So I'm skeptical of geeking out on the results without further details in a controlled environment. And you should be too.

We should always remain skeptical of tests, which includes our own. Nevertheless, since you are quoting from the article, you may want to read on, assuming you have the original and speak German:

They tested at 24mm and 200mm (usually with different lenses), in manual mode and with the tester sitting on a chair, hand-holding camera and lens while using both arms as braces and holding his/her breath. They shot series of images with each shutter speed (only weakness of the test: they don't tell us how many shots they took) and then assigned their 'grades' depending on how good the average image was. At 24mm, all bodies did very well, which was expectable. At 200mm, the spread was much wider.

I have done plenty of hand-holding test shots myself under similar conditions (and sometimes published the results here on a DPReview forum), which served for instance to compare the Nikon 200-500 and 500 PF with each other and a few other lenses, so I know from experience that the magazine's approach makes sense and yields meaningful results.

Thank you. I do not have the article, just the blurb NR posted. And I manually typed it in to google translate.

That's more info, and thank you for it, but it still doesn't remove the human issue out of the test. It's a nice starting point, imo, but if we're really going to look at the precise, distinctive measurements as Foto Magazin is offering, I think a method with less room for error might be useful.

Or just more data through more people using the same setups conducting similar tests. As well as different lenses at same and different focal lengths.

In any case, I have no issues with the Z IBIS system. I just find it difficult to say X camera is 'good' to 5 EV or 7 EV definitively. They need more tests with more lenses imo.

Are you sure 'removing the human issue' from the test is a valid and resonable objective? The very critique of CIPA testing is that is uses robots following artificial algorithms that may or may not duplicate the human experience. CIPA is one thing, the real world can be another. The ultimate question, and the only one that really matters, is how well will a human find their body and hand shake compensated by their camera system.

It seems to me you and some other posters here miss the point of the test: it has NO relevance when it comes to telling you, you, you, or any other person how slow a shutter speed you will be able to hand-hold. That depends too much on the individual test setting, the specific individual(s) conduting the test, and some other parameters. However, that's not what the article is about. So, is 5EV or 7EV the right number? We have no way of knowing.

What the article IS about, and where it is likely credible, is how different cameras compare in the same setting while being hand-held by the same individual in the same way. What CIPA to my knowledge does not take into account, for example, but a real-world test does, is how heavy and how well-balanced each body/lens combo is: it seems plausible that a light and well-balanced system will make it easier for the IBIS system to produce stable results as it likely induces less camera shake and tremble. What FotoMagazin did factors this in, whereas CIPA or any similar testing you seem to be suggesting will struggle with that or simply ignore it.

As I said before, I've done many of these tests myself, to the order of SEVERAL THOUSANDS of test shots, always with the same setting and target.I am not inclined to listen to someone who has never done that and just theorizes about it because that strikes me like the French scientist in the old joke saying "Maybe it works in practice. But will it work in theory?"

I KNOW from those tests that I can get repeatable results and that a comparison I conduct this way tells me which gear stabilizes better. I KNOW that you need at least about 20 shots to be fairly sure (= have a reasonable degree of accuracy and repeatability) when trying to determine how well IBIS+IS/VR work at a given shutter speed, and that increasing that number to 50 or so shots is required before you can be almost certain. (That's why I am unhappy with the magazine guys for not telling us how many shots they took.) (By the way, I was the first one to point out, via this exact testing done in late September of 2019, that the Nikon 500mm PF lens has a 'notch' between about 1/80-1/160th of a second where the VR does not compensate as well as it does at lower AND higher shutter speeds. The 1/80 to 1/60 may be arguable since it depends on MY hand-holding capabilities. The fact that there is a notch is not.)

For my part, I therefore take the essence of knowledge this article presents over a manufacturer's CIPA number.

A side thought: I enjoy these and similar discussions on this forum. I find it difficult, however, that there seems to be so much energy focused on "What's wrong with this?" and so little on "What can I learn from this?" Lessons from the past should always be questioned and re-verified, not to be taken as etched in stone.

 lokatz's gear list:lokatz's gear list
Panasonic ZS100 Nikon D500 Nikon D850 Canon EOS R5 Nikon Z7 II +33 more
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