Is there really a market for slow tele lenses?

Canon, in a brave move, has created f/11 lenses at 600mm and 800mm. I wonder if these are really attractive. I feel that with such lenses one goes into competition with smaller sensor super zoom cameras that sell at about the same price. Optically probably similar?
One way of looking at it:

RF600mm F11 IS STM: $699.99

EF 600mm f/4L IS III USM: $12,999.00

Compact camera development has dramatically decreased. I don't know if small sensor super zooms are destined to die off, or not. I don't really follow them.
A P1000 goes until 3000mm (yes!) and costs below $1000
The P1000 and P900 are at near f32 FF equivalent in the FF 600-800mm range.

The 600mm f11 Canon is equivalent to the larger sensor compacts on the chart above, and none of them have reach to 800mm. The Canons are also equivalent to various combinations m43 shooters might use to get FF equivalent reach of 600-800, perhaps faster at the 800mm end (eg. 400mm f6.3 m43 zoom is equivalent to 800mm f12.6 ff).

Yes changing lenses is a hassle, but carrying another camera is also a hassle (menus, raw files, battery charging). These f11 Canons seem a reasonable alternative.

Chart from here: https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-coolpix-p1000/2

These DPR Equivalence charts are very useful - please keep it up DPR!
 

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Is there a market? Absolutely. Is it big enough? Well, as others explained, it may not have to be. Just as the P600, P900, P1000 introduce bird photographers and birders into the Nikon ecosystem, many of whom eventually want better IQ and low-light performance, the new lenses could do the same trick for Canon, who otherwise lack any of the "superzooms".

The risk in such a strategy is that you sort of have to disappoint your customers and hope they'll opt for something better while keeping them tied to your brand. From that perspective, the 600 and 800mm f/11 lenses are a BETTER mousetrap than Nikons Pxxx cameras. After all, they require getting a Canon body, too.
And exactly that requirement kind of destroys the whole cheap argument. If I have to buy a $4000 camera body to use a $900 lens, something is not quite right. I don't think customers fall for that, but of course I could be wrong.
 
Is there a market? Absolutely. Is it big enough? Well, as others explained, it may not have to be. Just as the P600, P900, P1000 introduce bird photographers and birders into the Nikon ecosystem, many of whom eventually want better IQ and low-light performance, the new lenses could do the same trick for Canon, who otherwise lack any of the "superzooms".

The risk in such a strategy is that you sort of have to disappoint your customers and hope they'll opt for something better while keeping them tied to your brand. From that perspective, the 600 and 800mm f/11 lenses are a BETTER mousetrap than Nikons Pxxx cameras. After all, they require getting a Canon body, too.
And exactly that requirement kind of destroys the whole cheap argument. If I have to buy a $4000 camera body to use a $900 lens, something is not quite right. I don't think customers fall for that, but of course I could be wrong.
Why not buy a $1000 RP? Who says it has to be a $4000 body?
 
I'm not, since they are effectively a good deal darker.
Maybe not a lot darker - because ML viewfinders are several stops brighter than a DSLR - and the human eye/brain is poor at distinguishing differences of illumination in bright light.

The answer should be clear in around 2 years time when the new Canon lenses will have been on retail sale for over a year.
 
Canon, in a brave move, has created f/11 lenses at 600mm and 800mm. I wonder if these are really attractive. I feel that with such lenses one goes into competition with smaller sensor super zoom cameras that sell at about the same price. Optically probably similar?
A 500mm f/8 that weights less than a kilogram could be a nice adition to the Z mount system.
The Canon 600 f/11 already weighs 930g. Seems a bit tough to achieve that with a 500mm f/8. The opening for a 500 f/8 would be about 14% larger than for the 600 f/11 so you need even more glass.
If you put away with the tele principle and its many lenses, my old Beroflex 8/500 (67mm filter diameter, the older 72mm seems to be the better of the two) shows that it's possible. Ok, you have a long empty tube, a minimum distance of 8m, CAs and vignetting, but you get a lightweight, but physically long, manual lens. Very cheap. Never tried it at the Z6, but just for fun at the D700 or the A7II.
 
I'm not, since they are effectively a good deal darker.
Maybe not a lot darker - because ML viewfinders are several stops brighter than a DSLR - and the human eye/brain is poor at distinguishing differences of illumination in bright light.

The answer should be clear in around 2 years time when the new Canon lenses will have been on retail sale for over a year.
If I look at my Rubinar with its nominal f/10, it is more of a t/16 or worse, which is what I mean with darker. You are losing a lot of light due to the construction principle of mirror lenses, resulting in higher ISO or longer exposure times.
 
Canon, in a brave move, has created f/11 lenses at 600mm and 800mm. I wonder if these are really attractive. I feel that with such lenses one goes into competition with smaller sensor super zoom cameras that sell at about the same price. Optically probably similar?
A 500mm f/8 that weights less than a kilogram could be a nice adition to the Z mount system.
The Canon 600 f/11 already weighs 930g. Seems a bit tough to achieve that with a 500mm f/8. The opening for a 500 f/8 would be about 14% larger than for the 600 f/11 so you need even more glass.
If you put away with the tele principle and its many lenses, my old Beroflex 8/500 (67mm filter diameter, the older 72mm seems to be the better of the two) shows that it's possible. Ok, you have a long empty tube, a minimum distance of 8m, CAs and vignetting, but you get a lightweight, but physically long, manual lens. Very cheap. Never tried it at the Z6, but just for fun at the D700 or the A7II.
A lot is possible when you relax the quality requirements and there are quite a lot of very cheap manual focus lenses on the market. Usually, the fun doesn't last too long though...
 
Yes, there is. Birders, backyard birders and gear heads.

And don't discount the gear head market. As is true of motorcycles, guns, amateur radio, pocket watches and 4wd vehicles a lot of people spend a lot of money on gear they find interesting in its own right and try to find a "reason" to own it after they buy it. I have a lot of pictures of birds, squirrels, butterflies and other small creatures not because I am a birder but because I enjoy the challenge of getting good images with a really long lens.

It seems like most people on DPReview consider themselves pure artists who consider their gear merely a tool they use use to create beautiful images. If you look at the posts here that is obviously BS. This is a gear forum for gearheads. Photography as an art form and photography as a gear oriented hobby are not mutually exclusive and are both reasons I enjoy photography. But there is nothing wrong with buying gear just because it is interesting.

I will freely admit to doing that. I have bought and sold some old manual focus telephoto lens like Canons FD 300mm f2.8 L with a TC and FD 500mm f4.5 L on Ebay and enjoyed using them. But as a serious photographic tool the lack of IS, autofocus meant they were inferior to much slower modern lenses. And even if they would have had IS their weight would still make a tripod or monopod necessary, The Canon f11 lenses would cost about the same as what I paid for those old lenses on Ebay and be much more useful despite their slower aperture.

These are not intended to be professional lenses. They are aimed at those of us that want a very long lens that is affordable even if it will be useful only in good light or on a tripod for static or slow moving subjects. There is absolutely no way I am going to spend $12,000 on a fast supertelephoto but I would spend $900. Its not like my livelihood depends on my being able to take a picture of a spectacular bird deep in a dark forest. Being able to take pictures of assorted critters in good light would be good enough.

I am looking at switching to FF from m43 now that Olympus has bailed out of making cameras and Panasonic is spending more resources on their FF cameras than m43. But my experience with m43 has shown that a f11 600mm lens is not as completely useless as many here seem to think it is. With m43 the longest telephoto options are a couple of 100-300 f5.6 zooms at f5.6, a 100-400 f6.3 zoom and a 300mm f4 prime. The zooms need to be stopped down a bit if you want really sharp images which makes the f16 equivalent. But in good light they are still very useful. Not suitable for sports. Or wildlife in poor light. And I often use them with a tripod and hope to get a picture when the subject has paused for bit so I can keep the ISO down. But still useful in many situations, inexpensive enough that I can buy them and light enough to travel with.
 
I mean, it's always good to have options. There's nothing in the realm of affordable in a manageable prime that will get me to 600mm, let alone, 800mm, in the Nikon world, at least nothing recent.

Me, personally...I wouldn't buy them. But I bet some will.
 
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Yes, there is. Birders, backyard birders and gear heads.

And don't discount the gear head market. As is true of motorcycles, guns, amateur radio, pocket watches and 4wd vehicles a lot of people spend a lot of money on gear they find interesting in its own right and try to find a "reason" to own it after they buy it. I have a lot of pictures of birds, squirrels, butterflies and other small creatures not because I am a birder but because I enjoy the challenge of getting good images with a really long lens.

It seems like most people on DPReview consider themselves pure artists who consider their gear merely a tool they use use to create beautiful images. If you look at the posts here that is obviously BS. This is a gear forum for gearheads. Photography as an art form and photography as a gear oriented hobby are not mutually exclusive and are both reasons I enjoy photography. But there is nothing wrong with buying gear just because it is interesting.

I will freely admit to doing that. I have bought and sold some old manual focus telephoto lens like Canons FD 300mm f2.8 L with a TC and FD 500mm f4.5 L on Ebay and enjoyed using them. But as a serious photographic tool the lack of IS, autofocus meant they were inferior to much slower modern lenses. And even if they would have had IS their weight would still make a tripod or monopod necessary, The Canon f11 lenses would cost about the same as what I paid for those old lenses on Ebay and be much more useful despite their slower aperture.

These are not intended to be professional lenses. They are aimed at those of us that want a very long lens that is affordable even if it will be useful only in good light or on a tripod for static or slow moving subjects. There is absolutely no way I am going to spend $12,000 on a fast supertelephoto but I would spend $900. Its not like my livelihood depends on my being able to take a picture of a spectacular bird deep in a dark forest. Being able to take pictures of assorted critters in good light would be good enough.

I am looking at switching to FF from m43 now that Olympus has bailed out of making cameras and Panasonic is spending more resources on their FF cameras than m43. But my experience with m43 has shown that a f11 600mm lens is not as completely useless as many here seem to think it is. With m43 the longest telephoto options are a couple of 100-300 f5.6 zooms at f5.6, a 100-400 f6.3 zoom and a 300mm f4 prime. The zooms need to be stopped down a bit if you want really sharp images which makes the f16 equivalent. But in good light they are still very useful. Not suitable for sports. Or wildlife in poor light. And I often use them with a tripod and hope to get a picture when the subject has paused for bit so I can keep the ISO down. But still useful in many situations, inexpensive enough that I can buy them and light enough to travel with.
+1

Good post. Could do with being said here also: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4503205
 
Why am I reminded of mirror lenses here? ;-)
I'm not, since they are effectively a good deal darker. But my Rubinar 10/1000 has at least a minimum distance of 4m, compared to the 6.5m of the 800mm Canon. But I expect the Canon to be the better lens, even if you can't stop it down like a mirror lens.
Has anyone made a mirror lens that can be stopped down? I have heard of lenses of that type that include a selectable internal ND filter such as the 1000mm Nikkor.
 
I don't know ..time till tell. But it could be interesting. If you are a "serious" birder, probably not. But in good light at your kid's swim meet, track event, at the local bird pond, at the zoo etc I could see a big market for that. Probably a MUCH bigger market than a 600mm f4 because of price.
 
I don't see how these lenses really work for bird photography.

maljo
 
I don't see how these lenses really work for bird photography.
Why?

If the bird is static - they should work well.

An f4 800mm lens is unlikely to have AF fast enough for a subject like swallows mobbing a cat - even if you can follow the movement using a gimbal.
 
I'm sure Nikon will also announce slow teles in the near future, the Z50 50-250 (f/6.3 at 250mm) lens is almost equivalent to f/11 on full frame and no one is complaining, it's just a market opportunity, if you can afford better and bigger, it's available with the FTZ adapter (I'm sure Canon has fast teles also available with their own adapter...)

Users always have the choice, if Canon made a wrong bet, time will tell !
 
the Z50 50-250 (f/6.3 at 250mm) lens is almost equivalent to f/11 on full frame
Are you sure?
I agree time will tell if Canon has made a good bet.
 
While apertures remain the same regardless of sensor size, an APS sensor is 2.25x smaller than a full frame sensor and collects 2.25x less light: this is more than a stop, thus the EQUIVALENT aperture of f/6.3 on APS is close to f/10 on full frame.

I guess that Nikon will also announce very slow teles for their Z's. Not only ML can AF at f/11 but with the EVF, you don't get the dark view like with OVF. Sure, f/11 teles will be pretty much limited to slow moving objects in good light, but not everyone can afford a $17,000 nikkor 800mm/f5.6 and carry a 10.1 pound lens. The Canon 800mm weights only 2.78 and seems very compact, but at a $899 list price, it's so affordable that losing 2 stops vs the f5.6 is not going to be much of a problem for some canon users, if it sells, Nikon will fire back with something similar and hopefully even better.
the Z50 50-250 (f/6.3 at 250mm) lens is almost equivalent to f/11 on full frame
Are you sure?

I agree time will tell if Canon has made a good bet.
 
I guess that Nikon will also announce very slow teles for their Z's. Not only ML can AF at f/11 but with the EVF, you don't get the dark view like with OVF. Sure, f/11 teles will be pretty much limited to slow moving objects in good light, but not everyone can afford a $17,000 nikkor 800mm/f5.6 and carry a 10.1 pound lens. The Canon 800mm weights only 2.78 and seems very compact, but at a $899 list price, it's so affordable that losing 2 stops vs the f5.6 is not going to be much of a problem for some canon users, if it sells, Nikon will fire back with something similar and hopefully even better.
Time will tell. But I can't help but think of the phrases "No free lunch" and "If it seems too good to be true it probably is".

800mm. 2.8 pounds. $900. What's the IQ going to be like? Add to it the fact that it will need double the ISO to get the same shutter speed. Balancing out ISO and shutter speed to get quality images can already be a struggle at f/8.

I'm sure there's a large crowd out there that will buy these lenses. I even acknowledge that it's great that this cheaper option is out there.

However, for me, it's all about image quality. And to get good IQ you need good optics. But you also need good shutter speeds and low noise. I doubt the IQ will be as good as the Nikon 500 PF + 1.4X TC. But then, it doesn't cost $4000 either.

Everyone has their "good enough" point. For me, the 500mm PF is good enough and I don't want the cost or weight of the 500mm f/4. What is the IQ of the Canon 800mm compared with the Nikon 200-500mm + 1.4X TC? I think that will be a key comparison.
 

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