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Is rolling shutter always a problem with electronic shutter

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Trevor Carpenter

Trevor Carpenter

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I've read on a few occasions that the G9 has much less of an issue with rolling shutter than previous models. Despite my love for the G9 this is not my experience. Trying to photograph dragonflies in flight using the various tools available such as pre burst is possible but nearly all my results are damaged by rolling shutter effects. I'd be interested to know if anybody has reached the same conclusion or has found a way around the problem and does Olympus (or in fact any manufacturer) get much better results than Panasonic.



879dac1aa3d74dd089c1d65f7899a60b.jpg




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Recent and not so recent pictures here https://trevorc28a.wixsite.com/trevspics
 
I haven't played with it myself, but I see from the user manual that the 6K photo mode has an option to reduce rolling shutter effects.
 
Note that the reports say less of an issue, not eliminated. My G9 panning motorsports shots show rolling shutter effects unless I use mechanical shutter. It's not glaring but I certainly see it, in vertical things that lean in the direction the vehicle is moving.

Until global electronic shutters are released, it's going to be an issue no matter how fast the sensor readout may be.

Steve
 
Rolling shutter is a very common issue when using an electronic shutter because in many camera the electronic shutter is a pretty slow rolling shutter.

But... the mechanical shutter is also a rolling shutter, just a faster one. There is a first curtain that opens (can be electronic) and to end the exposure the second curtain closes. The exposure does not start simultaneously for the whole image and also does not end at once for the whole image. Up to something around 1/200s there is at least a brief instance when the whole image is exposed (and that is needed to capture a single flash burst, and is then the maximum speed at which a plain flash works. When you go faster there is effectively only a "sliver" of the image that is exposed and that moves very fast over the image. With a very fast moving subject you will see the same rolling shutter type of distortion that an electronic shutter gives at lower speed already.
 
Edward Morris said:
I haven't played with it myself, but I see from the user manual that the 6K photo mode has an option to reduce rolling shutter effects.
Click to expand...
Well thank you, you learn something new every day. I've owned this camera for two years and never knew this because I have never used 6K photo, my logic being that I had SH1 and 2 and just isolating individual stills was a hassle in 6K. Having now read the section of the manual , I find that not only can you control rolling shutter effects but you can in camera isolate all the stills shots. I shall try it tomorrow.
 
Never photograph flying insects or flying hummingbirds with an electronic shutter. There will be rolling shutter problems on a significant percentage of the images. The mechanical shutter is better, but there is still distortion, especially on hummingbird wings. The images in which the birds wings are fully up or fully down as they change direction show the least distortion with both the electronic and mechanical shutters.

Most birds wings do not move quickly enough to show much distortion with the electronic shutter, unless they are oriented such that one wing is in the upper part of the frame and the other in the lower part and the wings are moving quickly.

See below with two fighting swallows.









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drj3
 
Based on the E-M1ii versus my earlier cameras, e-shutter is finally useful for action but rolling shutter will still manifest for certain subjects and settings. With ball sports the ball will sometimes be stretched while the players look fine. (Baseball and tennis are different, because the bat/racquet can bend, but I rarely shoot those.) It's safe with track except sometimes when panning, vertical elements tilt. What's weird is adjacent frames from a sequence can be good and bad. I cannot figure how that works.

Older models with slower read times weren't reliable for my action work. With time it will become incrementally better and we may find ourselves not using mechanical shutter very much.

Cheers,

Rick
 
A dragonfly's wing beat is too fast to see. It's really not fair to use that as a test of rolling shutter. Yes, electronic shutter has some rolling shutter effect but the G9 reads out the sensor faster than previous models, thus reducing the effect. Not fast enough to freeze the wing beat of a dragonfly.

Is it not possible to use Manual Shutter and acquire a burst? How about a pre-burst?
 
Trevor Carpenter said:
I've read on a few occasions that the G9 has much less of an issue with rolling shutter than previous models. Despite my love for the G9 this is not my experience. Trying to photograph dragonflies in flight using the various tools available such as pre burst is possible but nearly all my results are damaged by rolling shutter effects. I'd be interested to know if anybody has reached the same conclusion or has found a way around the problem and does Olympus (or in fact any manufacturer) get much better results than Panasonic.
Click to expand...
With the faster 20MP sensors the full resolution readout speed is 60fps, so rolling shutter is 1/60 second. That's much better than the 20-30fps of older cameras, but still not fast enough that it matches mechanical shutter at 1/250s. So while there will be more scenarios where rolling shutter doesn't show up, it's still there.
 
Wu Jiaqiu said:
a Nikon J5 i had could handle some things with little or no rolling shutter
Click to expand...
The J5 has (had) a sensor readout speed of approx 1/80s. So this is slow enough that you can provoke some rolling shutter effects by panning quickly. But for most use, it is good enough.

M4/3 cameras typically have a readout speed of approx 1/30s now, and that is quite often too slow. But the difference is not massive. I would expect that the next generation will provide approx 1/60s readout, which will be enough for a lot of use.

http://m43photo.blogspot.com/
 
Fredrik Glckner said:
Wu Jiaqiu said:
a Nikon J5 i had could handle some things with little or no rolling shutter
Click to expand...
The J5 has (had) a sensor readout speed of approx 1/80s. So this is slow enough that you can provoke some rolling shutter effects by panning quickly. But for most use, it is good enough.

M4/3 cameras typically have a readout speed of approx 1/30s now, and that is quite often too slow. But the difference is not massive. I would expect that the next generation will provide approx 1/60s readout, which will be enough for a lot of use.

http://m43photo.blogspot.com/
Click to expand...
never knew it was that fast a readout, needed it since it had no mechanical shutter
 
With the E-M1 I did cop it often Trev and when it happened it was severe with wing movement. With the EM-1-MKII, I no longer have that issue really. Seen it twice with the EM-1 MKII. I was reluctant to use ES on the E-M1, but not now on the MKII I use it all the time. it might well happen with small and faster winged subjects though. Swallows for example, I don't have an issue or the Faintails which are twice as quick with wing movement.

For dragons and damsels in flight, I use mechanical shutter on the EM-1 and will try ES with the EM-1 MKII when I can.

All the best in the UK Trevor.

Danny.

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I can always justify a need, but I can never justify a want.
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https://www.birdsinaction.com/
 
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Fredrik Glckner said:
Wu Jiaqiu said:
a Nikon J5 i had could handle some things with little or no rolling shutter
Click to expand...
The J5 has (had) a sensor readout speed of approx 1/80s. So this is slow enough that you can provoke some rolling shutter effects by panning quickly. But for most use, it is good enough.

M4/3 cameras typically have a readout speed of approx 1/30s now, and that is quite often too slow. But the difference is not massive. I would expect that the next generation will provide approx 1/60s readout, which will be enough for a lot of use.

http://m43photo.blogspot.com/
Click to expand...
1/60s is E-M1 Mk II, Mk III, and 1X readout speed at less than ISO 8000.

I do believe Sony A9 and A9II readout speed is 1/160s.
 
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JosephScha said:
A dragonfly's wing beat is too fast to see. It's really not fair to use that as a test of rolling shutter. Yes, electronic shutter has some rolling shutter effect but the G9 reads out the sensor faster than previous models, thus reducing the effect. Not fast enough to freeze the wing beat of a dragonfly.

Is it not possible to use Manual Shutter and acquire a burst? How about a pre-burst?
Click to expand...
you can only use pre bust (SH1 & 2 or 6K) with electronic shutter which is my basic problem
 
nzmacro said:
With the E-M1 I did cop it often Trev and when it happened it was severe with wing movement. With the EM-1-MKII, I no longer have that issue really. Seen it twice with the EM-1 MKII. I was reluctant to use ES on the E-M1, but not now on the MKII I use it all the time. it might well happen with small and faster winged subjects though. Swallows for example, I don't have an issue or the Faintails which are twice as quick with wing movement.

For dragons and damsels in flight, I use mechanical shutter on the EM-1 and will try ES with the EM-1 MKII when I can.
Click to expand...
Danny does the ES in the EM1-2 retain the 12bit rate and same noise performance as the mech shutter like it does in the GX8 ? . I`ve not used the ES yet in the Mk2 because of course there are no shutter shock issues
 
AdamT said:
nzmacro said:
With the E-M1 I did cop it often Trev and when it happened it was severe with wing movement. With the EM-1-MKII, I no longer have that issue really. Seen it twice with the EM-1 MKII. I was reluctant to use ES on the E-M1, but not now on the MKII I use it all the time. it might well happen with small and faster winged subjects though. Swallows for example, I don't have an issue or the Faintails which are twice as quick with wing movement.

For dragons and damsels in flight, I use mechanical shutter on the EM-1 and will try ES with the EM-1 MKII when I can.
Click to expand...
Danny does the ES in the EM1-2 retain the 12bit rate and same noise performance as the mech shutter like it does in the GX8 ? . I`ve not used the ES yet in the Mk2 because of course there are no shutter shock issues
Click to expand...
Aww heck, I'm far too basic for that stuff mate :-) Someone here will know for sure, but I switch to mechanical shutter now and then, but not for too long. Can't say I've ever seen any difference. It could well be there, but I don't see a difference. I use low ISO's though at between ISO 200 and ISO 400, maybe 500 now and again.

All the best and yeah, someone will know in here.

Danny.
 
nzmacro said:
With the E-M1 I did cop it often Trev and when it happened it was severe with wing movement. With the EM-1-MKII, I no longer have that issue really. Seen it twice with the EM-1 MKII. I was reluctant to use ES on the E-M1, but not now on the MKII I use it all the time. it might well happen with small and faster winged subjects though. Swallows for example, I don't have an issue or the Faintails which are twice as quick with wing movement.

For dragons and damsels in flight, I use mechanical shutter on the EM-1 and will try ES with the EM-1 MKII when I can.

All the best in the UK Trevor.

Danny.
Click to expand...
I agree, Danny. Since moving to the E-M1 II, and now the III, my mechanical shutter is almost never used. The rolling shutter issue never comes to mind.

Here’s a recent capture of a bee and the wing looks pretty straight to me, but blurred since only 1/2500 sec shutter speed.



Another bee with the Lumix LX100 at 1/12,500 sec and I think the wing bend may be due to the slower readout of the Lumix.

 

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