Samsung S20 ultra comparison

Started 6 months ago | Discussions thread
RDM5546
RDM5546 Senior Member • Posts: 1,349
Re: Samsung S20 ultra comparison

RDM5546 wrote:

Jostian wrote:

RDM5546 wrote:

Jostian wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

Jostian wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

Jostian wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

Jostian wrote:

Lee Jay wrote:

Jostian wrote:

Downsizing destroys the advantage of more pixels. Why not downsize to one pixel?

More pixels is great for cropping yes not for comparing the quality of output though.

That's the entire point of doing the comparison!

you are much mistaken to think more megapixels equals better IQ!

Then why does the inventor of our modern CMOS sensors (Eric Fossum) agree with me?

https://www.gigajot.tech/

"Being developed at Gigajot, QIS is the next generation of image sensors where high-speed single-photon detection is used to unlock new image capture capabilities for consumers and professionals not possible with today’s devices."

"Jot" is the specialized pixel that is sensitive enough to detect a single photon of light."

"A QIS may contain hundreds of millions to billions of jots."

so a 12mp sony FF has poorer quality IQ than a 108mp Xiaomi??

Sensor size also matters because of total light collected at a given f-stop and shutter speed.

Obviously... but you specifically said MPs are all that matters!

Show me where I said that they were ALL that mattered.

apologies, you didnt say ALL but you said the more megapixels equals better IQ which is not true, unless (theoretically) all else is equal. But the review section is full of reviews (even cameras with same size sensors) where cameras with lesser MPs deliver better IQ.

However, if the 0.8micron pixels from the 108MP sensor were scaled up to full-frame,

But they are not, they are tiny 0.8 micron, you could say the same about any smaller sensor...

No, I'm saying leave the pixel size alone and scale the sensor up.

but you cannot do that above 100% crop 1:1, thats the point and thats why DPReview always use the sensor with the least MP as a base to which other sensors with more MPs get resized to in their studio scene!!

then you'd have a 1.35GP sensor that would out-perform that 12MP Sony in all but the most light-starved situations.

any idea how much light you'd need,

The same. The total light captured doesn't change.

exactly, but when that same amount of light needs to be spread across 12 mp vs 108 mp it makes a huge difference.

in anything but ultra bright light the 12MP Sony will be better

Not true. It's a total myth that larger pixels are better in low light, except for a very extreme situation where each pixel is only gather a couple of photons (where the read noise dominates the shot noise).

You are wrong, a 0.8 micron pixel will NOT gather the same amount of light as a 3.8 micron pixel.

, but again that goes against what you stated earlier saying that more MP's equals better IQ

Because, all else being equal, it does.

but camera's and phones are not, you are overly theoretical, there are many reviews where lesser MP cameras delivered better IQ than same size sensors with more MPs...

But ok we are hijacking this thread, lets just agree to disagree

There is a shot noise signal to limit in a pixel equal to the square root of the maximum capacity of electrons that can be stored in a pixel. If a pixel can store 1,000,000 electronics there is a maximum signal to noise ratio of 1000:1 (120 decibels). The storage capacity of a pixel increases with the surface area of the the pixel. So if the pixel with a 1,000,000 electrons capacity is doubled is height and width stores 4,000,000 electrons then this 4 fold increase in size will improve the signal to noise ratio to 2000:1.

Exactly! THANK YOU!

It always possible to not reach the shot noise limit by a worse sensor design but the the shot noise limit is the final barrier in photo dectectors. Small pixels have more shot noise. Smartphones with headline numbers claiming 108mp like the Samsun S20 Ultra actually default using that sensor with a binning method to produce a 12 megapixel image.

I own this Samsung smartphone camera and the images are typically 12 megapixels that typically make 2-3megabyte JPEG files. You can disable the binning which makes the JPEG files 20-30megabytes in file size and the pixel array is 108 megapixels rather than the defaul 12 megapixels. However the 108 milion pixels are noisiers when you pixel peep. Looking a the whole image the noise looks about the same image noise wise as the 12 megapixel default images made from the 3x3 binning.

So why did the chip designer cut the sensor into 120 megapixels. Ignoring the PR value there is value when software digital zooming with that sensor. Digital zooming is a fancy method of cropping images. If you download raw file of the 108mp image and then crop the image in post processing you do get a better cropped image than if you download the 12 megapixel binned image and crop that image. Cropping higher megapixel imagex works better both in reality and theory. The Samsung S20 zooming uses the full 108 mp images when doing digital zooming to make the zoomed images look better.

I can not load the 108mp raw file here but to give you a rough idea of the S20 Ultra's camera image quality the best I can do is to load the 12mpixel standard JPEG image from the S20 ultra smartphone of a pine tree in my front yard.

12 mpixel standard format image of a pine tree automatically made by 108mpixel image sensor in the Samsung S20 Ultra Smartphone using 9X9 binning. The Image is store in a 6.587 MB JPEG file.

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