When Will The Camera Market Stop Shrinking?

So seems the sky is still falling and camera sales are still tanking. When will the camera market stop shrinking? Will DPReview even exist in a year? Seems like the camera industry is contracting at 30-50% a year. That's just suicide.

I don't see any place for APSC or smaller cameras. Only full frame and medium format will exist in a year in any meaningful manor. I think only the very top end cameras and elite users will be around. Everyone will be on smartphones and won't care about image quality. Seems like no one cares about all the smeared pixels and horrific fake bokeh that gets things so wrong.

I think the way for the camera industry to stop this endless downward spiral is that there must be computational photography and full post processing built into the camera body and built in full time wifi that can upload straight from the camera. Users these days want instant gratification. Telling them they need to manually post process RAW files is the reason the camera industry is going the way of horse and buggy whips.

It's also the reason why beginner users think DSLR and mirrorless cameras take bad photos. That's because RAW files look horrible without automated post processing. Any normal person would pick up their smartphone after seeing the mess of colors and contrast of a RAW file.
There's nothing "horrific" or "fake" about that great, shallow DOF smartphone shot Absquatulate shared that fooled everyone into thinking it was taken with a large sensor camera.
Fooled everyone? Really? Didn’t look like a large sensor camera with the way the background rendered...and didn’t look like film. Fooled you maybe.
As I was telling Jonsi in an earlier post, "posting something interesting will get attention. Just posting a bunch of poorly taken snaps while on holiday will get you maybe one like, if that--and that'd be probably out of sympathy."

You agree?
That smartphones are able to produce such great results in seconds is a BIG reason for the shrinking "proper" camera market.

As you note, it also doesn't help matters that the default RAW output of most cameras looks horrible and flat, requiring shadow lifting and highlight recovery to look halfway decent.
 
There's nothing "horrific" or "fake" about that great, shallow DOF smartphone shot Absquatulate shared that fooled everyone into thinking it was taken with a large sensor camera
Didn't fool me. Looks like garbage. You think his postage sized photo with a horrible grain filter added on top is supposed to be a large sensor camera? The fact that he turned it black and white to further remove any semblance of detail is supposed to indicate quality? What are you smoking?

He purposely did all that to hide all the horrible noise, smeared pixels, and fake bokeh that blurred the wrong things. I've seen full resolution P30 Pro and they are indeed horrible compared to full frame.
I want to believe you, I really do. Your response would carry a lot more weight if it had been delivered before Absquatch revealed which camera took it.

I hope he posts more such "blind tests" to give you the opportunity to showcase your prowess at telling apart such "horrible," "smeared," and "fake" smartphone shots from their so very much better large-sensor counterparts.
 
Sure it'll shrink, but will it disappear completely? I don't think so.

People who were interested in photography before will still not be satisfied with what their phone has to offer, and those new to the hobby will quickly come to the same conclusion. I'm certain the gap between phones and cameras is closing but I'm doubtful if it will close completely.

I'm confident there will still be manufacturers producing and selling aps-c/m43 for years to come.
 
Big wedding with over 700 people and all I saw was just the hired photogs and a few guests with dedicated cameras. Everybody is now shooting with their phones. Among my friends, I know they all own cameras before.
Very common experience at weddings nowadays. There are very good reasons why this is the case now:

People go to weddings as guests and not to be photographers. Smartphones allow them to enjoy themselves as guests while getting a few shots of friends and family at the wedding for memories and sharing, maybe, with some who could not be there.

Our purist photographers here will chide that as accepting inferior pictures as if the guests are there to produce professional quality photographs. They are there as guests and they need to let the hired professional photographer to do his/her thing.
If people feel comfortable shooting with phones, why would they buy another camera.

I don't see this trend reversed any time soon.
 
Our purist photographers here will chide that as accepting inferior pictures as if the guests are there to produce professional quality photographs. They are there as guests and they need to let the hired professional photographer to do his/her thing.
Funny that you mention that, a growing trend today with brides with nice wedding budgets who have hired a professional for the wedding is to require guests to deposit cell phones at the door, there is even a trend and a business for elaborate decorative big cell phone box holders for this purpose.

Brides have the media covered and they want their guests to enjoy the reception and not focus on trying to get social media shots. They even have a name coined --"unplugged weddings." It's a topic that brides are faced with today and will be asked by wedding planners, do you want an unplugged wedding or not?
 
Sure it'll shrink, but will it disappear completely? I don't think so.

People who were interested in photography before will still not be satisfied with what their phone has to offer, and those new to the hobby will quickly come to the same conclusion. I'm certain the gap between phones and cameras is closing but I'm doubtful if it will close completely.

I'm confident there will still be manufacturers producing and selling aps-c/m43 for years to come.
You will see brand consolidation. Some will give up. Fewer sales means less R&D, more expensive gear.

There is one common driver for all camera companies, money. If they don't make money, they will quit. Do they care about their customer then, no.
 
So seems the sky is still falling and camera sales are still tanking. When will the camera market stop shrinking? Will DPReview even exist in a year? Seems like the camera industry is contracting at 30-50% a year. That's just suicide.
Camera sales will probably drop to the same level as before digital (except for P&S which smartphones have replaced). Just because camera sales have been abnormally high for a number of years when digital was new, it does not have to stay the same forever.
I don't see any place for APSC or smaller cameras. Only full frame and medium format will exist in a year in any meaningful manor. I think only the very top end cameras and elite users will be around. Everyone will be on smartphones and won't care about image quality. Seems like no one cares about all the smeared pixels and horrific fake bokeh that gets things so wrong.
Just like in the past there will be a use for many different formats in the future too. Just like there where a market for many film formats, it will also be so for digital.
I think the way for the camera industry to stop this endless downward spiral is that there must be computational photography and full post processing built into the camera body and built in full time wifi that can upload straight from the camera. Users these days want instant gratification. Telling them they need to manually post process RAW files is the reason the camera industry is going the way of horse and buggy whips.
The sales are normalising to a sustainable level, from the abnormally high sales we have had during a few years in the past.
It's also the reason why beginner users think DSLR and mirrorless cameras take bad photos. That's because RAW files look horrible without automated post processing. Any normal person would pick up their smartphone after seeing the mess of colors and contrast of a RAW file.
It is not the quality of the images on DSLR and Mirrorless that is the the problem. It is that images from smartphones are good enought for most users, so why should they get another image capturing device than their smartphone? Most users just want a convenient device they can capture everyday snapshots with. It has been the same the last 100 years.

The "real" market for ILC is just not as big it seems to have been during a short period of time when digital photography was new.
This is all true. Of course it has been said before and should be a sticky note at the top of the thread to stop it haven't to be said over and over.

Smartphone cameras have replaced the point and shoot film and then digital cameras that most people had for taking snapshots. Most people are happy with snapshots and when most people look back at old family and holiday photos they care about who is in those photos, not about image quality.

While a large proportion of the population has always had point and shoots, ILCs have always been a much smaller market for hobbyists and pros. The market is just going back to that. Many folks around here see the very inflated market that came with good quality, affordable digital as normal and worry about it changing. It wasn't normal, it was a blip.
 
Nobody knows what's going to happen, friend.

Ask any of the long-term marketers for any of the major camera manufacturers, they'll tell you they were happily stunned by digital photography's market acceleration in the early 'aughts. Sure, they all anticipated that digital tech would grow the business--but Canon and Nikon had planned to keep making lines of film camera bodies for at least a decade longer than they eventually did. Digital and DSLRs, particularly, grew so much faster, got so much bigger than they'd imagined. They’d expected at least some professionals to hesitate; almost none did. It was like flipping a switch—professional photography went digital in an instant. And the causal, point+shoot customers bought waaaaay higher-level product than anticipated. I promise you, Nikon did not conceive the D100 with casual soccer mom-tographers in mind—but the market caught fire and almost overnight these companies were in the business of selling multi-thousand-dollar system cameras to whole new markets of point+shooters.

The 2004 Nikon F6 gives us some insight into Nikon’s wild ride. People now talk about the F6 as a kind of "passion project," a "swan song" for film photography that Nikon released as a loving kiss goodnight; but that's just bunky revisionist history. Bringing the F6 to market took years and significant R&D expense--new counter-weighted shutter, new mirror box geometry, completely new film advance tech. Nikon clearly expected there to be a long-term pro market for it. Yet by the time it arrived . . . ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Five years later, the camera companies clearly didn't see the smartphone coming.

But isn't it fair to ask what the smartphone manufacturers, computational imaging developers, and social media overlords can't see coming? Why do we believe they're omniscient? OK, so they made a few good bets that drank Canon's and Nikon's milkshake (as well as many others); but so what? Nobody's winning streak lasts forever.

Let me suggest something to you: Zuckerberg and his peers certainly didn't see the present of social media coming. I promise you that Kevin Systrom and Mike Krieger did not imagine the commercial "influencer" economy when they created Instagram. The early developers of Facebook, Twitter, and Youtube certainly didn't foresee nation-states weaponizing their platforms for misinformation campaigns and election interference. They didn't imagine governments using their software and networks to coordinate genocides; they didn't envision extremist / terror organizations like ISIS uploading content to radicalize and recruit. They didn't foresee mass-shooters live-streaming their conquests or victims live-streaming their demise.

Sure, Zuckerberg & co. knew they were creating competition for old-media organizations like newspapers and magazines; but not in their wildest dreams did they imagine that, by 2019, their competition would knock out most local newspapers of record around the United States. I mean, just imagine asking Zuck in 2010: "What do you think about putting every newspaper in the country out of business? How will democracy work if 95% of the population isn't informed of what's happening where they live? Who will hold local governments accountable?" He'd have thought you were nuts to lay that at his feet.

I pick my examples here purposefully, friend. Because not all is well in smartphone-socialworld. Regulation is coming. Antitrust investigations are looming. People are tiring of big tech's endless databreaches, privacy scams, and bait-switch business practices. We’re exhausted by the extremists, gaslighters, and wanton idiots that smartphone world has foisted into our daily lives or, worse, into positions of responsibility. And a growing number of people are sick of working 24/7 because their smartphone makes them available to work 24/7. Ten years ago smartphones were miraculous. Today the relationship is decidedly more complicated. Ask yourself if this present we're living with smartphones, right now, is the one Steve Jobs imagined when he walked out on that Macworld stage in January 2007.

Most importantly: smartphone sales are flat, or in decline. Everybody who wants one, has one; most people are turning them over less often than in past. And nobody's sure how to make the market start growing again. Sound familiar?

Here's another thing to consider: most smartphone-related services are chronically unprofitable. The "frightful five," Amazon, Apple, Google, Facebook, and Microsoft, sure--they make money. But Uber burns $1B a quarter. (!!!) Spotify? Red. Netflix? Deep in the red. How about Dropbox? Nope, losses. Surely Snapchat is in the black? Nope, they burned $1.3B in 2018. They all burn money, year after year after year. At some point, it's reasonable to imagine that investors are going to ask when a return is coming.

So friend, don't count cameras out. Canon and Nikon might be in tough shape, but they aren't burning a billion dollars in losses a quarter. Nobody knows what's going to happen; nobody knows how attentions, economies, attitudes, enthusiasms, fashions and trends will shift. The existence of compelling technology doesn't, alone, guarantee its future. Sure, computational photography seems like it'll be a big deal--like maybe it even should be a big deal; but so did manned space exploration in July, 1969.
 
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So seems the sky is still falling and camera sales are still tanking. When will the camera market stop shrinking? Will DPReview even exist in a year? Seems like the camera industry is contracting at 30-50% a year. That's just suicide.

I don't see any place for APSC or smaller cameras. Only full frame and medium format will exist in a year in any meaningful manor. I think only the very top end cameras and elite users will be around. Everyone will be on smartphones and won't care about image quality. Seems like no one cares about all the smeared pixels and horrific fake bokeh that gets things so wrong.

I think the way for the camera industry to stop this endless downward spiral is that there must be computational photography and full post processing built into the camera body and built in full time wifi that can upload straight from the camera. User
these days want instant gratification.
Thats why i shoot live in the studio :-) clients love it.
Telling them they need to manually post process RAW files is the reason the camera industry is going the way of horse and buggy whips.

It's also the reason why beginner users think DSLR and mirrorless cameras take bad photos. That's because RAW files look horrible without automated post processing. Any normal person would pick up their smartphone after seeing the mess of colors and contrast of a RAW file.
 
There's nothing "horrific" or "fake" about that great, shallow DOF smartphone shot Absquatulate shared that fooled everyone into thinking it was taken with a large sensor camera
Didn't fool me. Looks like garbage. You think his postage sized photo with a horrible grain filter added on top is supposed to be a large sensor camera? The fact that he turned it black and white to further remove any semblance of detail is supposed to indicate quality? What are you smoking?

He purposely did all that to hide all the horrible noise, smeared pixels, and fake bokeh that blurred the wrong things. I've seen full resolution P30 Pro and they are indeed horrible compared to full frame.
I want to believe you, I really do. Your response would carry a lot more weight if it had been delivered before Absquatch revealed which camera took it.

I hope he posts more such "blind tests" to give you the opportunity to showcase your prowess at telling apart such "horrible," "smeared," and "fake" smartphone shots from their so very much better large-sensor counterparts.
Actually, I am looking forward to you posting all the wonderful images YOU have actually taken with a smart phone as a way to illustrate your oft repeated mantra. That's YOU, though, not stolen ones from the internet as you have in the past.

Think you could do that Sybil? Or just more hot air blowin through.....
 
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I just like the process of taking pictures with a dedicated interchangeable lens camera.

Only 5% of my pictures are worth looking at.

I also enjoy playing piano, but my smart speaker will play Moonlight Sonata better than I can. Should I stop playing?

Is Steinway and Yamaha, etc in deep trouble?
 
So seems the sky is still falling and camera sales are still tanking. When will the camera market stop shrinking?
November 2042.
Will DPReview even exist in a year?
Yes.
Seems like the camera industry is contracting at 30-50% a year. That's just suicide.
So much drama...
I don't see any place for APSC or smaller cameras.
Ok.
Only full frame and medium format will exist in a year in any meaningful manor.
That is a large British lord country house right?
I think only the very top end cameras and elite users will be around.
And going on the Mars trip too.
Everyone will be on smartphones and won't care about image quality. Seems like no one cares about all the smeared pixels and horrific fake bokeh that gets things so wrong.
If you say so.
I think the way for the camera industry to stop this endless downward spiral is that there must be computational photography and full post processing built into the camera body
Lots already allow that. You seemed to have missed it.
and built in full time wifi that can upload straight from the camera.
Already exists too.
Users these days want instant gratification.
It's human nature.
Telling them they need to manually post process RAW files is the reason the camera industry is going the way of horse and buggy whips.
If you say so.
It's also the reason why beginner users think DSLR and mirrorless cameras take bad photos. That's because RAW files look horrible without automated post processing. Any normal person would pick up their smartphone after seeing the mess of colors and contrast of a RAW file.
Sure.
 
So seems the sky is still falling and camera sales are still tanking. When will the camera market stop shrinking?
November 2042.
Sure
Will DPReview even exist in a year?
Yes.
OK
Seems like the camera industry is contracting at 30-50% a year. That's just suicide.
So much drama...
Sounds good
I don't see any place for APSC or smaller cameras.
Ok.
Agree
Only full frame and medium format will exist in a year in any meaningful manor.
That is a large British lord country house right?
Ha
I think only the very top end cameras and elite users will be around.
And going on the Mars trip too.
Clever
Everyone will be on smartphones and won't care about image quality. Seems like no one cares about all the smeared pixels and horrific fake bokeh that gets things so wrong.
If you say so.
Sure
I think the way for the camera industry to stop this endless downward spiral is that there must be computational photography and full post processing built into the camera body
Lots already allow that. You seemed to have missed it.
OK
and built in full time wifi that can upload straight from the camera.
Already exists too.
Agree
Users these days want instant gratification.
It's human nature.
It is.
Telling them they need to manually post process RAW files is the reason the camera industry is going the way of horse and buggy whips.
If you say so.
Sure
It's also the reason why beginner users think DSLR and mirrorless cameras take bad photos. That's because RAW files look horrible without automated post processing. Any normal person would pick up their smartphone after seeing the mess of colors and contrast of a RAW file.
Sure.
Agree.
 
I could see either M43 or some APSC system falling away, but not all of them. I think Canon EFS is in more danger than say Sony E for APSC since Sony shares their E mount with FF. IMHO Canon's decision to use a fourth(!) mount (if you call EF vs EF-S two mounts which is not quite true) means Canon is managing four mounts. Which means that somebody is going to get shortchanged big time in the Canon space.
I really like Canon, but their mount situation has put them in a real pickle. I refuse to believe that EF mount is dead. But I could definitely see Canon putting lens development there on the backburner possibly indefinitely while they fill the RF mount...

...but on the flip side, with the EF-RF adapter working so well, and so many people heavily invested in EF, RF lens sales might be a little soft. I keep referring back to my Tamron 24-70 2.8. It's like 10 years old and not far off from the latest and greatest 2.8 zooms. Is there really any reason for me to upgrade? If enough people feel like I do, will there be any reason for Tamron to make an RF mount version?

The industry has collapsed by more than half while the mounts have more than doubled. Really strange times.
 
I just like the process of taking pictures with a dedicated interchangeable lens camera.

Only 5% of my pictures are worth looking at.

I also enjoy playing piano, but my smart speaker will play Moonlight Sonata better than I can. Should I stop playing?

Is Steinway and Yamaha, etc in deep trouble?
I think I'm going to get a P71 or P125 for Christmas. Hopefully Yamaha can hold on until then
 
Our purist photographers here will chide that as accepting inferior pictures as if the guests are there to produce professional quality photographs. They are there as guests and they need to let the hired professional photographer to do his/her thing.
Funny that you mention that, a growing trend today with brides with nice wedding budgets who have hired a professional for the wedding is to require guests to deposit cell phones at the door, there is even a trend and a business for elaborate decorative big cell phone box holders for this purpose.

Brides have the media covered and they want their guests to enjoy the reception and not focus on trying to get social media shots. They even have a name coined --"unplugged weddings." It's a topic that brides are faced with today and will be asked by wedding planners, do you want an unplugged wedding or not?
 

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