Interesting new Ricoh GRIII metering - expose to the right finally?

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OP Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 38,601
Re: Interesting new Ricoh GRIII metering - expose to the right finally?

SirPeepsalot wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

teemodk wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

teemodk wrote:

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teemodk wrote:

SirPeepsalot

Coincidentally - a clean black wall shot with full ETTR should also come out white, so an in-camera ETTR implementation should probably include a safeguard on the maximum amount of stops to overexpose when possible.

Only if you want to use the jpeg directly from the camera. If you want the least amount of noise in the raw image, you want to give it as much light as possible.

At some point the marginal benefit becomes negligible and if you ETTR a uniform dark surface your image will be dominated by haze and a heightened black point all while requiring multiple additional stops of shutter speed.

Might be true, I have never felt the need to photograph black walls
Anyway, it's always the user that is to blame for the outcome, never the camera. Learning to use the equipment is more important than features. But if the new exposure mode actually works it would indeed be very helpful.

There is almost no chance that the GRIII does meaningful ETTR

Well... have you tried it? It’s a new metering mode

Don't have one to try, is there a manual online ? How is it described in there ?

yes and yes It certainly would be good to try a real one to see how well it works My comment comes precisely because I looked at the manual/ but I agree needs to be tested in the real world

Here's the manual:

http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/r_dc/support/manual/pdf/grd3/GR_DIGITAL_III_E.pdf

Page 65 lists the traditional Multi, Center-weighted and Spot modes, what were you refering to ?

nm this is the GRD-III (facepalm ricoh)

So this is the GRIII manual:

http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/support/man-pdf/gr-3.pdf

And it lists a "highlight-weighted" mode that "Meters exposure in multiple areas of the frame with emphasis on the bright areas."

So yeah sounds like "make sure the highlights are retained even at the cost of underexposure" mode which is only tangentially related to ETTR.

Afaik this is ettr The way Reichman described it a while back/ years ago at least

No, at least it's not the salient part of ETTR - in ETTR the protection of the highlights comes into play only after you apply positive exposure compensation in a scene that would have otherwise left them in tact based on your prefered metering choice, if you need to worry about highlights in the beginning then you are exposing to the LEFT.

Again, this doesn't make sense to me- at least the way it was defined by Reichman. The reason it's called expose to the right is not because of how EV compensation is used, but how the histogram looks (ie. you try to capture the highlights, thus the histogram has data in the high bits). The attempt here is to maximize data capture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposing_to_the_right

The highlights will always be at the right of the histogram - that's what makes them the highlights !

No, this is missing the point. You want to make the highlights go to the very edge of the right in the histogram, preserving them. It is this key difference what makes ETTR's definition. You can always have highlights all he way *through* the right (clipping) or just "towards the right side" but without touching or close to touching the right side (under exposure).

That is just a regular exposure strategy to make use of the entire sensor dynamic range while prioritizing highlight detail over shadow detail. It is just as applicable to film (slide more than negative) as it is to digital.

Well, of course! That's the point! But it's what the term ETTR is associated and defined as.

ETTR is an exposure strategy specific to digital because it takes advantage of how digital information is captured and quantized as more tones can be distinguished in the shadows by exposing them as midtones and in midtones by exposing them as highlights.

As long as the highlights don't clip.

The difference is how closed to midtones and the shadows are to them, so yes applying positive exposure compensation relative to the perceptually expected final result is what ETTR is all about.

This is not what is clearly defined in the link provided. And from that link also note that it does mention Michael Reichman's talk on it.

Sorry but I can't agree with your claims of the definition of what ETTR is.

Well I can't force you to but if you take a moment to think about the purpose it serves and its uniqueness to digital capture you'll see that it is the only the thing that makes it a 'thing' to begin with.

I am not saying that what you think of exposure isn't a valid one. My claim is that this is how ETTR's been defined in digital image capture. I gave you the link, the references. I can't do much more than that.

Really it shouldn't be difficult to distinguish between things that are diametrically opposite - if you were to work in full manual mode highlight protection strategy would produce a picture either as intended to be viewed or one that needs shadows to be pushed in post whereas ETTR would produce a picture that needs to be pulled (or curve-adjusted downards) in post.

Well of course a shot in ETTR has to be adjusted (actually curve adjusted up, not down).

Down, as the captured raw values would be higher than perceptually intended.

Again, depends on the scene. In a high contrast scene where you expose for highlights, you need to bring it back up.

The point is to maximize image capture. I gave you the link that defines it. I am not saying you may agree with the idea of shooting like this, but this is what it is defined as. Hell, I don't shoot like this most of the time either.

I just found curious that the Ricoh GRiii has finally what seems to be a metering mode that seems to support this ETTR thinking as one of the few first cameras that do.

That's because it didn't and you are confusing highlight protection with ETTR.

I don't believe I am confusing anything. I gave you the links, and even the original discussion of the term on that. I welcome skepticism, which is why I gave you the links so you can read it by yourself. I am afraid we definitively don't agree here.

Btw many cameras have 1-stop ETTR mode builtin, it is known as low-expanded ISO or 1 stop bellow "native" ISO.

It's not because they still don't exposure to the right per se. They can still clip. What that does is moves the DR window to get more highlights. Yes, I know about it, as I did my own experiments back then with the 4/3rds Olympus e-620/E-30. Some cameras do it as a default, others allow you to set it (Pentax highlight priority). For Fuji the DR 200%, 400%. But that's not ETTR.

"Moving the DR window to get more highlights" is the ETTR per se - everything else is tangential.

Moving the DR window is part of, but not necessarily, sufficient for ETTR. I can move the DR window and *not* expose for highlights. That's not ETTR.

It is if you fill that DR window with data,

Yes, but that's the point, moving the DR window *is not necessarily* ETTR!

in fact it's the clipping protection that is optional here - people have been doing ETTR way before live highlight clipping warning even existed just based on the shape of the (JPEG !)

You clearly didn't read the information and definition links I provided you. This isn't about what people were doing or not but about what's defined. This doesn't mean there aren't other forms of exposure, but what I refer as ETTR has a clear straight forward definition, that for some reason there has been a refusal to check out with the links provided as evidence.

histogram in image review and knowing the "raw headroom" of their sensor from experience.

That's irrelevant to the point.

But.. I am done. I gave you links with the evidence of the discussions and definitions, that led to this term, but all I see back is just an opinion with no evidence. Seems like you refused to check them out- your choice, your decision, there's nothing here I can do.

I agree to disagree and move on. I am interested to see if the Ricoh GRiii implements a close easy way to do what the definition of ETTR states.

Cheers.

I read the original ETTR discussions on LL and other places back when they were actually taking place and still don't get how you and teemodk managed to take away the obvious, auxiliary aspect of it as its defining feature.

The wikipedia article is a mess beyond hope and somebody who cares more than me should probably rewrite it from scratch.

I read the articles on LL today with fresh eyes. So, there is no chance that my mind has been scrambled during the passing 15 years. I sugest you re-read them.

They clearly discuss in 2003 the benefits of utilizing the "upper" part of the sensors scale because it improves the signal to noise relation. You want to bring as much data "up" on the scale (histogram) as possible in order to maximaze data and lower noise.
Exactly eight years later they did a Optimizing Exposure "essay", saying more or less the same.

Recording a low DR scene in the middle of the scale (at 18% or whatever the camera deem correct), mean loosing data and increasing the S/N relation.

ETTR:

1. Expose as bright as you can, while keeping the brightest parts you want in the picture To The Right of the histogram.

2. Normalize the tonal curve to make sense.

Thats all. Nothing more. Expose To The Right (always), then normalize.
By the way, I don't eat pizza.

Peace...

Except there's no reason to believe that the GRIII will always expose as bright as it can, that would indeed make it an ETTR mode, only that it will avoid exposing it brigther.

You just changed the subject or admitted that what the articles say is correct and not what you are saying. I have said already that we need a Ricoh GRiii to see how this *new* metering mode behaves, and it *looks like* it could be a form of ETTR.

As for ETTR, if you find the wikipedia article a mess, I gave you the direct link where it all started and it very clearly doesn't agree with your ETTR definition claim.

I don't have any ETTR definition claims -

Oh come on. You have been telling us what ETTR shooting is, and it's not what it's defined as.

I've been telling you what distinguishes ETTR shooting from just highlight protection and why a mere mode of highlight protection should not be taken as evidence of ETTR.

i didn’t take it as evidence  I took it as possibility of    I don’t know how many more times I need to say this  and if you have a flat scene the highest luminance point becomes the highlight for reference of exposure

you are the one obsessed with them (btw a forum or a blog writeup or even a wikipedia article is hardly a definition but nm that),

Wikipedia is certainly only good to further research as a starting point. However, I gave you a direct link to Luminou's Landscape where it all started. It has someone very technically knowledgable from Adobe Photoshop discussing it with Reichman- a known photographer (who has passed away unfortunately).

I know that link, I read it around the time it was first written - last time I checked there was nothing really disagreeable there.

I honestly can’t see how what’s written there supports all the claims you have been making regarding ettr definition maybe read again?  It’s been a while

only that an ETTR mode would be distinguishable from a highlights-protection mode by its behaviour with a wall or a gray card - not a high-dr/contrast scene,

No hold on, that's not the only claim you made.

and that the GRIII almost certainly only offers the later.

And that is certainly an opinion I can understand. I for one want to see what this never seen before metering mode does. Could be useless or very useful.

Mixing a real ETTR mode together with highlight protection would actually be extremely counter-productive as it would add between 1 and 4 stops of shutter speed onto an unsuspecting photographer when pointed at low-contrast scenes - but hey maybe that's why Ricoh put that IBIS in there.

actually ETTR is indeed about as consequence keeping the highlights (which is why I don’t find the claims and Reichmans def to match)  of course this would change the exposure on the Ricoh I’d it does that that’s why it’s an option!

guess what center weighted, spot, matrix weighted do?  Different ways to change exposure!  I don’t see how this is any different  of course the photographer has to be conscious of the choices they make in the settings of the camera  this much is obvious no?

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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell

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