Interesting new Ricoh GRIII metering - expose to the right finally?

Started 3 months ago | Discussions thread
OP Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 38,601
Re: Interesting new Ricoh GRIII metering - expose to the right finally?
1

SirPeepsalot wrote:

teemodk wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

teemodk wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

teemodk wrote:

SirPeepsalot wrote:

teemodk wrote:

SirPeepsalot

Coincidentally - a clean black wall shot with full ETTR should also come out white, so an in-camera ETTR implementation should probably include a safeguard on the maximum amount of stops to overexpose when possible.

Only if you want to use the jpeg directly from the camera. If you want the least amount of noise in the raw image, you want to give it as much light as possible.

At some point the marginal benefit becomes negligible and if you ETTR a uniform dark surface your image will be dominated by haze and a heightened black point all while requiring multiple additional stops of shutter speed.

Might be true, I have never felt the need to photograph black walls
Anyway, it's always the user that is to blame for the outcome, never the camera. Learning to use the equipment is more important than features. But if the new exposure mode actually works it would indeed be very helpful.

There is almost no chance that the GRIII does meaningful ETTR

Well... have you tried it? It’s a new metering mode

Don't have one to try, is there a manual online ? How is it described in there ?

yes and yes It certainly would be good to try a real one to see how well it works My comment comes precisely because I looked at the manual/ but I agree needs to be tested in the real world

Here's the manual:

http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/r_dc/support/manual/pdf/grd3/GR_DIGITAL_III_E.pdf

Page 65 lists the traditional Multi, Center-weighted and Spot modes, what were you refering to ?

nm this is the GRD-III (facepalm ricoh)

So this is the GRIII manual:

http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/support/man-pdf/gr-3.pdf

And it lists a "highlight-weighted" mode that "Meters exposure in multiple areas of the frame with emphasis on the bright areas."

So yeah sounds like "make sure the highlights are retained even at the cost of underexposure" mode which is only tangentially related to ETTR.

Afaik this is ettr The way Reichman described it a while back/ years ago at least

No, at least it's not the salient part of ETTR - in ETTR the protection of the highlights comes into play only after you apply positive exposure compensation in a scene that would have otherwise left them in tact based on your prefered metering choice, if you need to worry about highlights in the beginning then you are exposing to the LEFT.

Again, this doesn't make sense to me- at least the way it was defined by Reichman. The reason it's called expose to the right is not because of how EV compensation is used, but how the histogram looks (ie. you try to capture the highlights, thus the histogram has data in the high bits). The attempt here is to maximize data capture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposing_to_the_right

The highlights will always be at the right of the histogram - that's what makes them the highlights !

No, this is missing the point. You want to make the highlights go to the very edge of the right in the histogram, preserving them. It is this key difference what makes ETTR's definition. You can always have highlights all he way *through* the right (clipping) or just "towards the right side" but without touching or close to touching the right side (under exposure).

That is just a regular exposure strategy to make use of the entire sensor dynamic range while prioritizing highlight detail over shadow detail. It is just as applicable to film (slide more than negative) as it is to digital.

ETTR is an exposure strategy specific to digital because it takes advantage of how digital information is captured and quantized as more tones can be distinguished in the shadows by exposing them as midtones and in midtones by exposing them as highlights.

The difference is how closed to midtones and the shadows are to them, so yes applying positive exposure compensation relative to the perceptually expected final result is what ETTR is all about.

This is not what is clearly defined in the link provided. And from that link also note that it does mention Michael Reichman's talk on it.

Sorry but I can't agree with your claims of the definition of what ETTR is.

Well I can't force you to but if you take a moment to think about the purpose it serves and its uniqueness to digital capture you'll see that it is the only the thing that makes it a 'thing' to begin with.

Really it shouldn't be difficult to distinguish between things that are diametrically opposite - if you were to work in full manual mode highlight protection strategy would produce a picture either as intended to be viewed or one that needs shadows to be pushed in post whereas ETTR would produce a picture that needs to be pulled (or curve-adjusted downards) in post.

It seems to me that you did not read the link from Raist3d, which is the same I quoted from earlier. I think you are over complicating ETTR.
You simply make sure all highlights are inside the view of the histogram. This ensues that the sensor get as much light to work with as possible without blowing highlights.
If you need to push or pull the shadows depends on the dynamic range of the scene and sensor.

Actually the wikipedia article over-complicates the issue by trying to cram together arbitrary chunks of digital exposure theory with semi-relevant trivia, it is not technically wrong when it says "exposing to the important highlights (abbr. ETTIH), which is in fact just a slight generalization of ETTR. " but it makes about as much sense as saying that food is a slight generalization of pizza.

Ultimately it all comes down to the question - what do you expect a camera to do with a low-dr scene when the highlights are nowhere near clipping with any of the traditional metering modes ?

If I set the camera for highlight exposure, I expect it to expose to get all highlights below max value. I would expect the jpeg to make sense as created by the camera, but the RAW shoud stay unmodified.

Then you have completely missed the point of ETTR, with ETTR a "flat" scene would come out way over-exposed (but not clipped) in RAW and would need to be pulled back to the original presentation intent but with richer tonality and lower noise, the camera may or may not do that automatically for the JPEG.

In that case yes, it would have to be pulled back (and to correct myself- pulling back or up would depend on the situation).

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Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell

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