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Smartphones supporting 10x optical zoom the end of rx100 vi's

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Livemusic

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It seems that manufacturers finally found a way to give smartphones real optical zoom, 10x, 12x are said to be on the next Oppo and Huwai flagships.
They already have a powerfull cpu/gpu for all kind of clean up and filters and enhancers. High end compacts were always better at sharp image but cost a lot. But if the new phones also have proper OZ.
I wonder if there will be enough market for the vii..
Oke they have better lenses, but cheaper cams dont'. In low light the bigger sensor will help, but APSC and M43 even better at that


What do you think? will the compact finally sees its end?
 
Livemusic said:
It seems that manufacturers finally found a way to give smartphones real optical zoom, 10x, 12x are said to be on the next Oppo and Huwai flagships.
Click to expand...
In other words - not yet.
Livemusic said:
What do you think? will the compact finally sees its end?
Click to expand...
When such phones appear we'll evaluate how good the zoom results are. And we'll check to see if they have adjustable apertures, eye-level viewfinders, articulating LCDs, real electronic flash, actual physical controls, remote control capability, tripod sockets, and such stuff.
 
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Maybe in a few years, better sensors and computational photography can do some amazing things, cant yet beat a 1' sensor. Stuff looks ok on phone screens but throw it on a desktop and the flaws become more obvious. I guess its all about the use case, if its for pictures of the cat to show grandma, then phones probably beat it every time ;)
 
Livemusic said:
It seems that manufacturers finally found a way to give smartphones real optical zoom, 10x, 12x are said to be on the next Oppo and Huwai flagships.
They already have a powerfull cpu/gpu for all kind of clean up and filters and enhancers. High end compacts were always better at sharp image but cost a lot. But if the new phones also have proper OZ.
I wonder if there will be enough market for the vii..
Oke they have better lenses, but cheaper cams dont'. In low light the bigger sensor will help, but APSC and M43 even better at that

What do you think? will the compact finally sees its end?
Click to expand...
The phones won't actually have any optical zoom will they? They will, perhaps, when actually released, have three fixed focal length cameras, whose images will be electronically combined to provide a sort of interpolated zoom effect. All three cameras will, of course, have tiny sensors, and the telephoto lens will be very slow.

This photographic array won't be cheap, so it won't feature in mass market phones. For example, I bought my RX100M6 and a perfectly decent, large screen Android phone last year for less than the price of a top end phone, whose cameras wouldn't be a patch on the RX100M6.
 
Livemusic said:
It seems that manufacturers finally found a way to give smartphones real optical zoom, 10x, 12x are said to be on the next Oppo and Huwai flagships.
Click to expand...
The lens design is nothing new. They are just trying to squeeze a folded optics lens inside a phone. Folded optics lenes have been used in ruggedized cameras for many years. The design has issues with sharpness and flare. It will be interesting to see how quickly the aperture drops with zoom if any of these 10x zooms materialize.

I'll wait to see how much they compromise the lens just to incorporate optical zoom.
 
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Digital Nigel said:
The phones won't actually have any optical zoom will they? They will, perhaps, when actually released, have three fixed focal length cameras, whose images will be electronically combined to provide a sort of interpolated zoom effect.
Click to expand...
The OPPO (if it becomes an actual product) will have an optical zoom system of quality yet to be determined.

oppo1b.jpeg


Similar predictions about something from Huawei.
 
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sybersitizen said:
Digital Nigel said:
The phones won't actually have any optical zoom will they? They will, perhaps, when actually released, have three fixed focal length cameras, whose images will be electronically combined to provide a sort of interpolated zoom effect.
Click to expand...
The OPPO (if it becomes an actual product) will have an optical zoom system of quality yet to be determined.

oppo1b.jpeg


Similar predictions about something from Huawei.
Click to expand...
I don't see any zoom lens in that image. It's just a double camera, one with a folded telephoto lens.

And this story says there will be three separate cameras, each with a complete set of lens elements and sensor:

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2019/1/16/18184870/oppo-10x-zoom-camera-phone-mwc-2019

The Huawei also has three separate cameras, each with a complete multi-element lens assembly and minuscule sensor. Even with those three cameras, it won't compete with the RX100M6 for image quality.
 
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sybersitizen said:
Digital Nigel said:
The phones won't actually have any optical zoom will they? They will, perhaps, when actually released, have three fixed focal length cameras, whose images will be electronically combined to provide a sort of interpolated zoom effect.
Click to expand...
The OPPO (if it becomes an actual product) will have an optical zoom system of quality yet to be determined.
Click to expand...
Don't forget they also announced a 5X optical zoom system almost two years ago. Where is the phone featuring that camera? Vaporware.
 
Digital Nigel said:
sybersitizen said:
Digital Nigel said:
The phones won't actually have any optical zoom will they? They will, perhaps, when actually released, have three fixed focal length cameras, whose images will be electronically combined to provide a sort of interpolated zoom effect.
Click to expand...
The OPPO (if it becomes an actual product) will have an optical zoom system of quality yet to be determined.

oppo1b.jpeg


Similar predictions about something from Huawei.
Click to expand...
I don't see any zoom lens in that image. It's just a double camera, one with a folded telephoto lens.

And this story says there will be three separate cameras, each with a complete set of lens elements and sensor:

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2019/1/16/18184870/oppo-10x-zoom-camera-phone-mwc-2019

The Huawei also has three separate cameras, each with a complete multi-element lens assembly and minuscule sensor. Even with those three cameras, it won't compete with the RX100M6 for image quality.
Click to expand...
DPR's article about the OPPO contains the text 'optical zoom'. If the definition of that has changed recently it's news to me. The DPR article about the Huawei mentions 'periscope zoom'. First time I've seen that term.

Whatever they're intended to be, they're not anything at the moment.
 
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sybersitizen said:
DPR's article about the OPPO contains the text 'optical zoom'. If the definition of that has changed recently it's news to me. The DPR article about the Huawei mentions 'periscope zoom'. First time I've seen that term.
Click to expand...
Their 10x "zoom" camera is 3 separate cameras. A UWA, a "normal" lens and the same 5x zoom lens they displayed back in 2017.

Now about that 5x lens. It does have true optical zoom, but not 5x. From a 2017 DPR article:

The system uses a periscope-style design and fits into a module that is only 5.7mm tall. Light is diverted through a prism and into the dual-camera's telephoto lens which is arranged at a 90-degree angle to the accompanying wide-angle. By shifting the path of the entering light Oppo is able to achieve a 3x optical zoom which is combined with a proprietary image fusion technology for digital zoom. The end results is a total 5x lossless zoom factor.

Image fusion? Lossless zoom factor?

The RX100m6 must be shaking in its tripod socket.
 
Enders Shadow said:
sybersitizen said:
DPR's article about the OPPO contains the text 'optical zoom'. If the definition of that has changed recently it's news to me. The DPR article about the Huawei mentions 'periscope zoom'. First time I've seen that term.
Click to expand...
Their 10x "zoom" camera is 3 separate cameras. A UWA, a "normal" lens and the same 5x zoom lens they displayed back in 2017.

Now about that 5x lens. It does have true optical zoom, but not 5x. From a 2017 DPR article:

The system uses a periscope-style design and fits into a module that is only 5.7mm tall. Light is diverted through a prism and into the dual-camera's telephoto lens which is arranged at a 90-degree angle to the accompanying wide-angle. By shifting the path of the entering light Oppo is able to achieve a 3x optical zoom which is combined with a proprietary image fusion technology for digital zoom. The end results is a total 5x lossless zoom factor.

Image fusion? Lossless zoom factor?

The RX100m6 must be shaking in its tripod socket.
Click to expand...
So the 'optical zoom' thing is just phony business. Not only is it non-threatening to real cameras, but even DPR is being conned (or just oblivious).
 
Last edited:
sybersitizen said:
Enders Shadow said:
sybersitizen said:
DPR's article about the OPPO contains the text 'optical zoom'. If the definition of that has changed recently it's news to me. The DPR article about the Huawei mentions 'periscope zoom'. First time I've seen that term.
Click to expand...
Their 10x "zoom" camera is 3 separate cameras. A UWA, a "normal" lens and the same 5x zoom lens they displayed back in 2017.

Now about that 5x lens. It does have true optical zoom, but not 5x. From a 2017 DPR article:

The system uses a periscope-style design and fits into a module that is only 5.7mm tall. Light is diverted through a prism and into the dual-camera's telephoto lens which is arranged at a 90-degree angle to the accompanying wide-angle. By shifting the path of the entering light Oppo is able to achieve a 3x optical zoom which is combined with a proprietary image fusion technology for digital zoom. The end results is a total 5x lossless zoom factor.

Image fusion? Lossless zoom factor?

The RX100m6 must be shaking in its tripod socket.
Click to expand...
So the 'optical zoom' thing is just phony business. Not only is it non-threatening to real cameras, but even DPR is being conned (or just oblivious).
Click to expand...
I may be wrong, but I didn't think phone cameras had any moving parts.

So, no form of protective lens cover, no optical zoom, no aperture blades and no mechanical shutter. The so-called optical zoom, when offered, is performed by merging the images from two or more separate fixed lens cameras, the camera lens is always wide open, and only an electronic shutter is available. The front lens is unprotected, and might well be covered with dust or fingerprints. None of this changes with these new phone cameras.
 
Digital Nigel said:
sybersitizen said:
Enders Shadow said:
sybersitizen said:
DPR's article about the OPPO contains the text 'optical zoom'. If the definition of that has changed recently it's news to me. The DPR article about the Huawei mentions 'periscope zoom'. First time I've seen that term.
Click to expand...
Their 10x "zoom" camera is 3 separate cameras. A UWA, a "normal" lens and the same 5x zoom lens they displayed back in 2017.

Now about that 5x lens. It does have true optical zoom, but not 5x. From a 2017 DPR article:

The system uses a periscope-style design and fits into a module that is only 5.7mm tall. Light is diverted through a prism and into the dual-camera's telephoto lens which is arranged at a 90-degree angle to the accompanying wide-angle. By shifting the path of the entering light Oppo is able to achieve a 3x optical zoom which is combined with a proprietary image fusion technology for digital zoom. The end results is a total 5x lossless zoom factor.

Image fusion? Lossless zoom factor?

The RX100m6 must be shaking in its tripod socket.
Click to expand...
So the 'optical zoom' thing is just phony business. Not only is it non-threatening to real cameras, but even DPR is being conned (or just oblivious).
Click to expand...
I may be wrong, but I didn't think phone cameras had any moving parts.

So, no form of protective lens cover, no optical zoom, no aperture blades and no mechanical shutter. The so-called optical zoom, when offered, is performed by merging the images from two or more separate fixed lens cameras, the camera lens is always wide open, and only an electronic shutter is available. The front lens is unprotected, and might well be covered with dust or fingerprints. None of this changes with these new phone cameras.
Click to expand...
As mentioned above, real 3x optical zooms do exist in smartphones. The issue is that 'optical zoom' apparently no longer means optical zoom when discussing ranges longer than that.

And yes, of course a phone has many other drawbacks compared to a camera.
 
sybersitizen said:
Digital Nigel said:
sybersitizen said:
Enders Shadow said:
sybersitizen said:
DPR's article about the OPPO contains the text 'optical zoom'. If the definition of that has changed recently it's news to me. The DPR article about the Huawei mentions 'periscope zoom'. First time I've seen that term.
Click to expand...
Their 10x "zoom" camera is 3 separate cameras. A UWA, a "normal" lens and the same 5x zoom lens they displayed back in 2017.

Now about that 5x lens. It does have true optical zoom, but not 5x. From a 2017 DPR article:

The system uses a periscope-style design and fits into a module that is only 5.7mm tall. Light is diverted through a prism and into the dual-camera's telephoto lens which is arranged at a 90-degree angle to the accompanying wide-angle. By shifting the path of the entering light Oppo is able to achieve a 3x optical zoom which is combined with a proprietary image fusion technology for digital zoom. The end results is a total 5x lossless zoom *factor.*

Image fusion? Lossless zoom factor?

The RX100m6 must be shaking in its tripod socket.
Click to expand...
So the 'optical zoom' thing is just phony business. Not only is it non-threatening to real cameras, but even DPR is being conned (or just oblivious).
Click to expand...
I may be wrong, but I didn't think phone cameras had any moving parts.

So, no form of protective lens cover, no optical zoom, no aperture blades and no mechanical shutter. The so-called optical zoom, when offered, is performed by merging the images from two or more separate fixed lens cameras, the camera lens is always wide open, and only an electronic shutter is available. The front lens is unprotected, and might well be covered with dust or fingerprints. None of this changes with these new phone cameras.
Click to expand...
As mentioned above, real 3x optical zooms do exist in smartphones. The issue is that 'optical zoom' apparently no longer means optical zoom when discussing ranges longer than that.
Click to expand...
I wasn't familiar with that model, and obviously wondered how slow the zoom lens was. And, yes, it's slow: f/2.7-4.8. That, combined with the usual tiny sensor, probably explains the unimpressive results it produced. At least the approach of having two or three separate cameras, each with a different focal length fast prime lens, avoids that problem.
sybersitizen said:
And yes, of course a phone has many other drawbacks compared to a camera.
Click to expand...
 
Livemusic said:
It seems that manufacturers finally found a way to give smartphones real optical zoom, 10x, 12x are said to be on the next Oppo and Huwai flagships.
They already have a powerfull cpu/gpu for all kind of clean up and filters and enhancers. High end compacts were always better at sharp image but cost a lot. But if the new phones also have proper OZ.
I wonder if there will be enough market for the vii..
Oke they have better lenses, but cheaper cams dont'. In low light the bigger sensor will help, but APSC and M43 even better at that

What do you think? will the compact finally sees its end?
Click to expand...
No unless they somehow figure out how to get a 10x zoom with a 1" sensor and still keep the phone to a reasonable size. And don't talk to me about AI because, while it helps, it will never equal the larger sensor for picky users like myself. What they will compete with are compacts with 1/2.3" sensors.
 
Seeing that the cost of high end phones rivals the RX100vi now ($1000) I suspect phones with such lenses will be more expensive.
 
tbcass said:
Seeing that the cost of high end phones rivals the RX100vi now ($1000) I suspect phones with such lenses will be more expensive.
Click to expand...
I agree. My RX100M6 plus budget smartphone actually cost less than a high end smartphone (which, apart from the more advanced camera, offers little more than my much cheaper phone).
 
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