Largely a waste of money

J A C S wrote:

quadrox wrote:

1-2 stops is huge.

In theory yes, but I was talking about amount of visible impact in my photos, and on that account I simply couldn't justify the 17-55.

[...]

So we can just stay with our phones then? I went FF precisely because getting better IQ or shallower DOF was not enough with crop - but one of my most used lenses is the 24-105/4 on FF. So you are saying that since it is not really f/2.8 or f/1.4, why not just have a f/5.6-f/9 zoom?

Same reason for me, and basically, yes. The 24-105 never satisfied me either, I bought that and the 17-55 based on advice on these forums, and I regret both choices.

Where this comparison breaks down is that on FF there is nothing equivalent to the 18-55 kit lens. If there was, I would likely choose it over the 24-105, given that there weren't any better alternatives.

Luckily the 24-70 2.8 exists, and boy is it better, and it doesn't even cost much more. If there was an equivalent to that for EF-S I would happily recommend it. As it is, the 17-55 just can't hold a candle to it.

A 2.8 lens should have greater IQ, and for the price, better build quality.

The 17-55 is not terribly sharp, this is true.

Glad we agree on something then. Though I wouldn't necessarily say it is bad as such, it just could be better.

Well, maybe you had one of the worse kit lenses, my brothers copy had no issues keeping up with the 17-55.

I had a few. It is very unlikely to have a few copies with worse contrast (overall one, like a veil over the image). When you shoot night images, they just fall apart. The 17-55 is basically an L lens aside from build quality. So is the 10-22, BTW.

I must admit I never tried it at full darkness, so I cannot comment on that. But I used it from dawn to dusk and never noticed much difference.

The dust problem is a non-issue. You need the right screwdriver, take the front element off, blow the dust away and put it back (mark the position of the screws before that). It takes a few minutes.

True, it is a minor point, but given the price it feels a bit like like a slap in the face. But ultimately I completely agree, it doesn't matter all that much.
I will probably stop here, I have some work to do, and I think we don't really disagree all that much - we just value some things differently, and there is no "fix" for that.