Sony was TOO SLOW

MrHollywood · Sep 1, 2018

I've had a careful look at the Nikon Z6 and Z7 and now I'm reading about the new Canon mirrorless, which also looks like it has some compelling ideas with a slick set of new lenses... Let's be honest: That EOS R looks very good and slips a fast gut-punch right between the Z6 and a A7rIII.

And it occurs to me with total clarity that this was Sony's game to lose and they lost it. With the latest models they had the chance to OWN the market. All they needed was improved handling, build and weatherproofing to create true pro-grade products.

But instead they remained hooked into the dreaded prosumer mindset and now Canon and Nikon have comparable or better products that will end any cross-market bleeding and will kill any chance Sony might have had to capture customers.

Betting on Sony has always been a problem in the long run, coming in strong with a product, only to get clobbered in the last innings.

I have to laugh at the negativity of some posters. They really miss the point. Nikon just started a new camera line with a larger mount. The Z6/Z7 are just the first of many cameras to come and they'll have MASSIVE optical advantages due to that mount.

Yes, it's a game changer. And it relegates Sony to full "also ran status" which is a shame.

Rob

pekored · Sep 1, 2018

Good comments and I agree ... especially about the new lens mount and future opportunities for the optical engineers.

JimKasson · Sep 1, 2018

MrHollywood said:
I've had a careful look at the Nikon Z6 and Z7 and now I'm reading about the new Canon mirrorless, which also looks like it has some compelling ideas with a slick set of new lenses... Let's be honest: That EOS R looks very good and slips a fast gut-punch right between the Z6 and a A7rIII.

And it occurs to me with total clarity that this was Sony's game to lose and they lost it. With the latest models they had the chance to OWN the market. All they needed was improved handling, build and weatherproofing to create true pro-grade products.

But instead they remained hooked into the dreaded prosumer mindset and now Canon and Nikon have comparable or better products that will end any cross-market bleeding and will kill any chance Sony might have had to capture customers.

Betting on Sony has always been a problem in the long run, coming in strong with a product, only to get clobbered in the last innings.

I have to laugh at the negativity of some posters. They really miss the point. Nikon just started a new camera line with a larger mount. The Z6/Z7 are just the first of many cameras to come and they'll have MASSIVE optical advantages due to that mount.

Yes, it's a game changer. And it relegates Sony to full "also ran status" which is a shame.

Extreme extrapolation from incomplete, noisy data.

Jim

David Bo · Sep 1, 2018

MrHollywood said:
I've had a careful look at the Nikon Z6 and Z7 and now I'm reading about the new Canon mirrorless, which also looks like it has some compelling ideas with a slick set of new lenses... Let's be honest: That EOS R looks very good and slips a fast gut-punch right between the Z6 and a A7rIII.

And it occurs to me with total clarity that this was Sony's game to lose and they lost it. With the latest models they had the chance to OWN the market. All they needed was improved handling, build and weatherproofing to create true pro-grade products.

But instead they remained hooked into the dreaded prosumer mindset and now Canon and Nikon have comparable or better products that will end any cross-market bleeding and will kill any chance Sony might have had to capture customers.

Betting on Sony has always been a problem in the long run, coming in strong with a product, only to get clobbered in the last innings.

I have to laugh at the negativity of some posters. They really miss the point. Nikon just started a new camera line with a larger mount. The Z6/Z7 are just the first of many cameras to come and they'll have MASSIVE optical advantages due to that mount.

Yes, it's a game changer. And it relegates Sony to full "also ran status" which is a shame.

Rob

Evidentiary · Sep 1, 2018

I believe Sony deserves a lot of credit for developing their full frame mirrorless cameras. Would there be a Z or R series had they not? I don't think so. The main area I fault Sony in is not listening to their customers and common sense. As examples, lack of weather sealing and lossless compressed have been obvious flaws & requested for years.

The actual truth is that Nikon & Canon were WAY TOO SLOW!

--
I enjoy constructive discussions & respond to civil, & respectful posts.

SpinOne · Sep 1, 2018

MrHollywood said:
And it occurs to me with total clarity that this was Sony's game to lose and they lost it.

Huh?

Nikon Z isn't out yet. Canon R isn't even announced yet.

Sony has spent the past 3 years eating CaNikon's lunch. They have numerous bodies, and a near-complete lens lineup. Nikon has... 3 native lenses. Even 3 years from now, they won't have as many lenses available as Sony.

It's way too early to take a victory lap.

MrHollywood · Sep 1, 2018

David Bo said:
MrHollywood said:

I've had a careful look at the Nikon Z6 and Z7 and now I'm reading about the new Canon mirrorless, which also looks like it has some compelling ideas with a slick set of new lenses... Let's be honest: That EOS R looks very good and slips a fast gut-punch right between the Z6 and a A7rIII.

And it occurs to me with total clarity that this was Sony's game to lose and they lost it. With the latest models they had the chance to OWN the market. All they needed was improved handling, build and weatherproofing to create true pro-grade products.

But instead they remained hooked into the dreaded prosumer mindset and now Canon and Nikon have comparable or better products that will end any cross-market bleeding and will kill any chance Sony might have had to capture customers.

Betting on Sony has always been a problem in the long run, coming in strong with a product, only to get clobbered in the last innings.

I have to laugh at the negativity of some posters. They really miss the point. Nikon just started a new camera line with a larger mount. The Z6/Z7 are just the first of many cameras to come and they'll have MASSIVE optical advantages due to that mount.

Yes, it's a game changer. And it relegates Sony to full "also ran status" which is a shame.

Rob

Click to expand...

Maybe thats why Sony are the best selling FF cameras in USA?

This is just noise Mr.Hollywood

And that is about to end, nor does "best selling" denote "best." I've used these cameras. The best AF I've ever seen (and virtually everyone agrees) is on a D5 followed by a D850.

The best camera Sony has, in my view, was the A7III. And the Z6 is at least a match and certainly out-specs it in several areas. We'll need to see final testing, but at this stage it's time to be realistic and accept that Nikon has already pulled even at the very least.

The point here is that I believe that Sony was too slow in their evolution and have allowed their massive lead in the mirrorless evolution to be eclipsed by others.

I see plenty of evidence and math supporting such a prognosis. The new Canon looks great and they know how to keep their customers. Nikon is more arrogant in their dealings with their base, but any potential exodus Sony was working on is now effectively stopped.

Sony just went from market leader to being forced to follow the market. Think Apple and the iPhone finally losing out to Samsung. Not only does Samsung now sell nearly double the phones, they also make the displays for Apple and others.

Canon & Nikon will now expand their respective leads. What was once "no contest" is now about to be a KO because Sony can no longer complete a business plan that subsisted primarily on the relative inactivity of the competition.

Sony needed to nail the newest generations and make it tougher for Canon and Nikon to catch them. As my buddy at B&H correctly stated, "Sony lost the race five feet from the finish line." I see it the same way. They had the series, 3 games to zip...and now they've choked and let Canikon catch them.

Rob

MrHollywood · Sep 1, 2018

SpinOne said:
MrHollywood said:

And it occurs to me with total clarity that this was Sony's game to lose and they lost it.

Click to expand...

Huh?

Nikon Z isn't out yet. Canon R isn't even announced yet.

Sony has spent the past 3 years eating CaNikon's lunch. They have numerous bodies, and a near-complete lens lineup. Nikon has... 3 native lenses. Even 3 years from now, they won't have as many lenses available as Sony.

It's way too early to take a victory lap.

Nikon and Canon lead in overall sales. They lead in ALL professional fields as well.

Sony's never had a victory to begin with because their market share is lower than the big names.

They've effectively given up their lead and you will see this reflected in less than a year.

Rob

MrHollywood · Sep 1, 2018

bobabend said:
I believe Sony deserves a lot of credit for developing their full frame mirrorless cameras. Would there be a Z or R series had they not? I don't think so. The main area I fault Sony in is not listening to their customers and common sense. As examples, lack of weather sealing and lossless compressed have been obvious flaws & requested for years.

The actual truth is that Nikon & Canon were WAY TOO SLOW!

PTMcH · Sep 1, 2018

Ultimately, how much of advantage the 52 mm throat and 16 mm flange distance (vs. 46mm throat, 18 mm flange distance) are, only time will tell.

By first to the market on ML FF, Sony decided to keep the same mount as their APSC. With now both Nikon and Canon entering the same market segment with larger lens throat, there will be technical limitation for Sony lens design (fast lens, high IQ compact lens…etc) due to the mount geometry. Only time will tell if this will manifest as an deciding factor some years down the line.

Evidentiary · Sep 1, 2018

MrHollywood said:
bobabend said:

I believe Sony deserves a lot of credit for developing their full frame mirrorless cameras. Would there be a Z or R series had they not? I don't think so. The main area I fault Sony in is not listening to their customers and common sense. As examples, lack of weather sealing and lossless compressed have been obvious flaws & requested for years.

The actual truth is that Nikon & Canon were WAY TOO SLOW!

Click to expand...

That's a great point and I'm not being sarcastic.

But I believe that when the dust settles, we'll all be agreeing that Sony led what amounted to a strong "beta testing" program that allowed the Canikon monster to catch them in a single swoop.

Again, I'll use the iPhone as an example. They stumbled as Samsung went for big displays and phones that felt better was were less restrictive. Today Samsung is #1 in cell phone sales AND cross marketed tech.

Rob

JimKasson · Sep 1, 2018

MrHollywood said:
The best AF I've ever seen (and virtually everyone agrees) is on a D5 followed by a D850.

If you're talking about the PDAF AF in those cameras, the D5 is fast and sticky, but not as accurate as, say, the a7RIII or the a9, which have OSPDAF with a CDAF trim step.

I own all four cameras, so I speak from experience.

What's the best AF depends on what kind of images you're making.

Jim

Laslo Varadi · Sep 1, 2018

MrHollywood said:
bobabend said:

I believe Sony deserves a lot of credit for developing their full frame mirrorless cameras. Would there be a Z or R series had they not? I don't think so. The main area I fault Sony in is not listening to their customers and common sense. As examples, lack of weather sealing and lossless compressed have been obvious flaws & requested for years.

The actual truth is that Nikon & Canon were WAY TOO SLOW!

Click to expand...

That's a great point and I'm not being sarcastic.

But I believe that when the dust settles, we'll all be agreeing that Sony led what amounted to a strong "beta testing" program that allowed the Canikon monster to catch them in a single swoop.

Again, I'll use the iPhone as an example. They stumbled as Samsung went for big displays and phones that felt better was were less restrictive. Today Samsung is #1 in cell phone sales AND cross marketed tech.

If you don’t count the technology they stole from Apple.

Apple is the first company that exceeds 1 trillion $ value and my Apple stock is way up there, so they can’t be doing too bad.

MrHollywood said:
Rob

Thoughts R Us · Sep 1, 2018

David Bo said:
MrHollywood said:

I've had a careful look at the Nikon Z6 and Z7 and now I'm reading about the new Canon mirrorless, which also looks like it has some compelling ideas with a slick set of new lenses... Let's be honest: That EOS R looks very good and slips a fast gut-punch right between the Z6 and a A7rIII.

And it occurs to me with total clarity that this was Sony's game to lose and they lost it. With the latest models they had the chance to OWN the market. All they needed was improved handling, build and weatherproofing to create true pro-grade products.

But instead they remained hooked into the dreaded prosumer mindset and now Canon and Nikon have comparable or better products that will end any cross-market bleeding and will kill any chance Sony might have had to capture customers.

Betting on Sony has always been a problem in the long run, coming in strong with a product, only to get clobbered in the last innings.

I have to laugh at the negativity of some posters. They really miss the point. Nikon just started a new camera line with a larger mount. The Z6/Z7 are just the first of many cameras to come and they'll have MASSIVE optical advantages due to that mount.

Yes, it's a game changer. And it relegates Sony to full "also ran status" which is a shame.

Rob

Click to expand...

Maybe thats why Sony are the best selling FF cameras in USA?

This is just noise Mr.Hollywood

Sony was the best selling for a limited period of time cherry picked by Sony and according to a marketing study paid for by Sony. They still only have about 13% of the overall market.

It would be like the producers of the movie The Meg claiming to have outgrossed Star Wars or The Avengers based on the fact that they were the number 1 movie for one slow August Week after the others had had their runs.

For the second half of the year, I bet both Canon and Nikon outsell Sony by wide margins. And Sony has had 100% of the FF mirrorless market for about 5 years and could only manage 13% market share overall. Their percentage is guaranteed to drop by a wide margin.

nerd2 · Sep 1, 2018

It lacks IBIS. It uses canon's 30MP sensor which will probably be way worse than Sony/Nikon offerings in terms of DR and resolution.

On the other hand Sony had first FF mirrorless, first FF IBIS, first BSI sensor, first blackout-less 20fps continuous shooting, first eye-AF and so on. Sony IS innovative and nikon is at least trying to catch up.

Yes their new f2 zoom looks impressive but it will be totally impractical, especially with lightweight mirrorless bodies.

MrHollywood said:
I've had a careful look at the Nikon Z6 and Z7 and now I'm reading about the new Canon mirrorless, which also looks like it has some compelling ideas with a slick set of new lenses... Let's be honest: That EOS R looks very good and slips a fast gut-punch right between the Z6 and a A7rIII.

And it occurs to me with total clarity that this was Sony's game to lose and they lost it. With the latest models they had the chance to OWN the market. All they needed was improved handling, build and weatherproofing to create true pro-grade products.

But instead they remained hooked into the dreaded prosumer mindset and now Canon and Nikon have comparable or better products that will end any cross-market bleeding and will kill any chance Sony might have had to capture customers.

Betting on Sony has always been a problem in the long run, coming in strong with a product, only to get clobbered in the last innings.

I have to laugh at the negativity of some posters. They really miss the point. Nikon just started a new camera line with a larger mount. The Z6/Z7 are just the first of many cameras to come and they'll have MASSIVE optical advantages due to that mount.

Yes, it's a game changer. And it relegates Sony to full "also ran status" which is a shame.

Rob

--
"We need a bigger boat."

adk38 · Sep 1, 2018

Laslo Varadi said:
MrHollywood said:

bobabend said:

I believe Sony deserves a lot of credit for developing their full frame mirrorless cameras. Would there be a Z or R series had they not? I don't think so. The main area I fault Sony in is not listening to their customers and common sense. As examples, lack of weather sealing and lossless compressed have been obvious flaws & requested for years.

The actual truth is that Nikon & Canon were WAY TOO SLOW!

Click to expand...

That's a great point and I'm not being sarcastic.

But I believe that when the dust settles, we'll all be agreeing that Sony led what amounted to a strong "beta testing" program that allowed the Canikon monster to catch them in a single swoop.

Again, I'll use the iPhone as an example. They stumbled as Samsung went for big displays and phones that felt better was were less restrictive. Today Samsung is #1 in cell phone sales AND cross marketed tech.

Click to expand...

If you don’t count the technology they stole from Apple.

Hearsay. Samsung got a verdict because they used a rectangular shape for their phones

(The rest is licensed. They all earn from eachother) Samsung has been ahead of Apple for 50 years. May change if Apple gets in with Tesla and if competition in Tesla's market don't get too stiff

Laslo Varadi said:
Apple is the first company that exceeds 1 trillion $ value and my Apple stock is way up there, so they can’t be doing too bad.

Apple are not doing bad. Only a few years ago they past 100 billion and already 1 trillion. I guess in a few months it's 100 trillions

Laslo Varadi said:
Laslo Varadi said:

Rob

--
"We need a bigger boat."

Click to expand...

And to OP. Not sure if Sony is fast or slow but they are often their own enemy

Laslo Varadi said:
--
Laslo
http://www.digitalexpressionsphotography.com

chary zp · Sep 1, 2018

SpinOne said:
MrHollywood said:

And it occurs to me with total clarity that this was Sony's game to lose and they lost it.

Click to expand...

Huh?

Nikon Z isn't out yet.

true

SpinOne said:
Canon R isn't even announced yet.

very true

SpinOne said:
Sony has spent the past 3 years eating CaNikon's lunch. They have numerous bodies, and a near-complete lens lineup. Nikon has... 3 native lenses. Even 3 years from now, they won't have as many lenses available as Sony.

I actually think that the Z7/Z6 cameras are here as a technology demonstator (the specs are clearly not to eat into D850 market, not straight away), and with the mount like that, they can do things. The Z system is obviously not aimed at first-camera buyers. With FTZ adapter, it is aimed at existing Nikon users with already good lenses. And suddenly you have plenty of lenses to go with the body. Not native Z mount, admittedly, but working, and with the latest ones working quite well I would say. I would love to see some dramatic progress in lenses that are now hard to make, or even impossible, given the F mount limitations. On the other hand, how big is the market for f/0,95 and f/1,2 lenses? These are the everybody-wants-nobody-buys type of things. Exaggeration, of course.

On the other hand, I have seen some of those MFT curve graphs of these new S lenses. I am not an optics expert, but some people say these charts are very very good. So maybe the Nikon way is about the potential. And the missed marketing is the very same thing here.

Canon is rumored to release some interesting lenses straight immediately with the body, like 28-70/2 or something like that. So here Canon might have some better cards. But again, I suppose there must be some adapter to be used with existing EF lenses to make the camera more widely usable from the start.

As I read somewhere else, the strongest point of the Z system is the potential of the mount, and the elephant in the room are going to be the two "boring" f/1,8 lenses.

I can't wait to see real tests.

Badwater · Sep 1, 2018

I don't know, they make playstations. And they do everything.

MrHollywood · Sep 1, 2018

Laslo Varadi said:
MrHollywood said:

bobabend said:

I believe Sony deserves a lot of credit for developing their full frame mirrorless cameras. Would there be a Z or R series had they not? I don't think so. The main area I fault Sony in is not listening to their customers and common sense. As examples, lack of weather sealing and lossless compressed have been obvious flaws & requested for years.

The actual truth is that Nikon & Canon were WAY TOO SLOW!

Click to expand...

That's a great point and I'm not being sarcastic.

But I believe that when the dust settles, we'll all be agreeing that Sony led what amounted to a strong "beta testing" program that allowed the Canikon monster to catch them in a single swoop.

Again, I'll use the iPhone as an example. They stumbled as Samsung went for big displays and phones that felt better was were less restrictive. Today Samsung is #1 in cell phone sales AND cross marketed tech.

Click to expand...

If you don’t count the technology they stole from Apple.

Apple is the first company that exceeds 1 trillion $ value and my Apple stock is way up there, so they can’t be doing too bad.

Nobody said they were doing bad. McDonald's is also doing well, but those burgers are pretty lousy.

There came a point when Apple went from leading the market to following it.

You're about to see the same type of transition now where Sony will no longer lead.

Rob

digitallollygag · Sep 1, 2018

MrHollywood said:
bobabend said:

I believe Sony deserves a lot of credit for developing their full frame mirrorless cameras. Would there be a Z or R series had they not? I don't think so. The main area I fault Sony in is not listening to their customers and common sense. As examples, lack of weather sealing and lossless compressed have been obvious flaws & requested for years.

The actual truth is that Nikon & Canon were WAY TOO SLOW!

Click to expand...

That's a great point and I'm not being sarcastic.

But I believe that when the dust settles, we'll all be agreeing that Sony led what amounted to a strong "beta testing" program that allowed the Canikon monster to catch them in a single swoop.

Again, I'll use the iPhone as an example. They stumbled as Samsung went for big displays and phones that felt better was were less restrictive. Today Samsung is #1 in cell phone sales AND cross marketed tech.

Rob

Sony was TOO SLOW

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