Cheapo lens help

I'm one of those people, like many others, that would really like to get the 300D and a DSLR over something like the Minolta A1. But I'm a teen, and money is a critical factor. I can't really go over, say, 300 or 400 dollars more then the 900 of the 300D, and preferably less.

My interests are varied, but I mostly shoot macros of insects and birds in my back yard. I find the 35 mm wide angle of my current G3 helpful, but I think I could live without it. I could use 40 or 50 if I really had too.

At first, I thought of just getting the 'included' lens and then a el-cheapo pocket rocket (80-200 f4.5-5.6) and perhaps also getting a the 50mm f1.8 for reversing and low-light. But now I'm wondering about the quality of these two lenses.

Primes seem to expensive, even though they are sharper and faster.

Does anybody have any reccomondations? I'd like a focal range of 40mm to at least 200mm. Perhaps the Pocket Rocket isn't that bad? Or do you guys have any ideas?

Macro is a must for me. Are macro lenses THAT much better then just reversing the 50 mm 1.8?

Or should I just consider the all-in-one Minolta A1 instead?

Thanks!

-JHK

I actually got to play with the Minolta A1 and it's a lovely little camera, far nicer than the Dimage-7 series horrors and the IS CCD really works ! but it costs more than the 300D Kit in the UK and we've not seen the output, you can guarantee that it won't match a 300D though ..

The Pocket Rocket isn't up to much for closeups - i'd think along the lines of the Sigma 70-300 APO Macro Super , it has more range, is sharper, does 1:2 True macro and is a great price - the only downer is focus speed, it's rather slow - that and the 300D Kit lens ought to get you going and be great value

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There's a Sigma 50mm macro sitting over in B&H used right now for only $149. Its a true 1:1 macro, although it wouldn't provide much working distance for flying insects.

DigiJK said:

I'm one of those people, like many others, that would really like
to get the 300D and a DSLR over something like the Minolta A1. But
I'm a teen, and money is a critical factor. I can't really go
over, say, 300 or 400 dollars more then the 900 of the 300D, and
preferably less.

My interests are varied, but I mostly shoot macros of insects and
birds in my back yard. I find the 35 mm wide angle of my current
G3 helpful, but I think I could live without it. I could use 40 or
50 if I really had too.

At first, I thought of just getting the 'included' lens and then a
el-cheapo pocket rocket (80-200 f4.5-5.6) and perhaps also getting
a the 50mm f1.8 for reversing and low-light. But now I'm wondering
about the quality of these two lenses.

Primes seem to expensive, even though they are sharper and faster.

Does anybody have any reccomondations? I'd like a focal range of
40mm to at least 200mm. Perhaps the Pocket Rocket isn't that bad?
Or do you guys have any ideas?

Macro is a must for me. Are macro lenses THAT much better then
just reversing the 50 mm 1.8?

Or should I just consider the all-in-one Minolta A1 instead?

Thanks!

-JHK

Click to expand...

Here is the link:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home ;jsessionid=1rWbVfogAE!-6291487!-302331773?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=800327645&is=USE

Harlod said:

DigiJK said:

I'm one of those people, like many others, that would really like
to get the 300D and a DSLR over something like the Minolta A1. But
I'm a teen, and money is a critical factor. I can't really go
over, say, 300 or 400 dollars more then the 900 of the 300D, and
preferably less.

My interests are varied, but I mostly shoot macros of insects and
birds in my back yard. I find the 35 mm wide angle of my current
G3 helpful, but I think I could live without it. I could use 40 or
50 if I really had too.

At first, I thought of just getting the 'included' lens and then a
el-cheapo pocket rocket (80-200 f4.5-5.6) and perhaps also getting
a the 50mm f1.8 for reversing and low-light. But now I'm wondering
about the quality of these two lenses.

Primes seem to expensive, even though they are sharper and faster.

Does anybody have any reccomondations? I'd like a focal range of
40mm to at least 200mm. Perhaps the Pocket Rocket isn't that bad?
Or do you guys have any ideas?

Macro is a must for me. Are macro lenses THAT much better then
just reversing the 50 mm 1.8?

Or should I just consider the all-in-one Minolta A1 instead?

Thanks!

-JHK

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

It's been said before and will be said again, I'd recommend the Canon 50 1.8 to start. It's cheap, great at teaching depth of field and fast in low light and is small.

Then once you've mastered it or at least determined what you enjoy shooting, look at something that will fit what you see as being main limitations to the 50 1.8.

the kit lens has had good reveiws from what i have seen as well so that might not be bad - although is not too fast.

DigiJK said:

I'm one of those people, like many others, that would really like
to get the 300D and a DSLR over something like the Minolta A1. But
I'm a teen, and money is a critical factor. I can't really go
over, say, 300 or 400 dollars more then the 900 of the 300D, and
preferably less.

My interests are varied, but I mostly shoot macros of insects and
birds in my back yard. I find the 35 mm wide angle of my current
G3 helpful, but I think I could live without it. I could use 40 or
50 if I really had too.

At first, I thought of just getting the 'included' lens and then a
el-cheapo pocket rocket (80-200 f4.5-5.6) and perhaps also getting
a the 50mm f1.8 for reversing and low-light. But now I'm wondering
about the quality of these two lenses.

Primes seem to expensive, even though they are sharper and faster.

Does anybody have any reccomondations? I'd like a focal range of
40mm to at least 200mm. Perhaps the Pocket Rocket isn't that bad?
Or do you guys have any ideas?

Macro is a must for me. Are macro lenses THAT much better then
just reversing the 50 mm 1.8?

Or should I just consider the all-in-one Minolta A1 instead?

Thanks!

-JHK

Click to expand...

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Adam-T said:

I actually got to play with the Minolta A1 and it's a lovely little
camera, far nicer than the Dimage-7 series horrors and the IS CCD
really works ! but it costs more than the 300D Kit in the UK and
we've not seen the output, you can guarantee that it won't match a
300D though ..

Click to expand...

Yeah... I really like the body of the A1, but without going to a really cheap used Kodak 520 or something, I won't be getting any black bodies soon...

Adam-T said:

The Pocket Rocket isn't up to much for closeups - i'd think along
the lines of the Sigma 70-300 APO Macro Super , it has more range,
is sharper, does 1:2 True macro and is a great price - the only
downer is focus speed, it's rather slow - that and the 300D Kit
lens ought to get you going and be great value

Click to expand...

Thanks for pointing out that lens! I haden't looked at Sigma's lineup before. Very interesting.

Now, when you say 'slow,' it's still a lot better then any prosumer camera, right? Would it still blow my G3 out of the water?

I'm liking the lens otherwise. And it has better build quality then any of canon's cheap lenses, too.

-JHK

digijhk said:

Now, when you say 'slow,' it's still a lot better then any prosumer
camera, right? Would it still blow my G3 out of the water?

Click to expand...

I'd say that it focusses faster than a Consumer Digicam like the G3 because of the way DSLRs work - with a Digicam, they search the WHOLE focus range every time, the lens goes from end to end each half shutter press - a DSLR doesn't , it just moves in the direction needed for the distance needed, if it's in the ballpark, focus is instant whereas the G3, even if it's close will rack back and forth anyway - Every one i've used from the Nikon 900 to the E10, from the Fuji 2400 to a 717 does this

digijhk said:

I'm liking the lens otherwise. And it has better build quality then
any of canon's cheap lenses, too.

Click to expand...

Certainly better built than the 75-300 / 90-300 range, and it's only £140 new! , OK you'll need bright light to hand hold it at 300mm but the same goes for any Non-IS lens of that length, even my 300MM F4L Prime if stopped down to F5.6

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Adam-T said:

I actually got to play with the Minolta A1 and it's a lovely little
camera, far nicer than the Dimage-7 series horrors and the IS CCD
really works ! but it costs more than the 300D Kit in the UK and
we've not seen the output, you can guarantee that it won't match a
300D though ..

Click to expand...

Don't knock the D7's. They weren't "horrors" by any stretch of the imagination. I had a D7i for about a year, and was on the whole pretty happy with it -- nice ergonomics once past the learning curve, nice lens, pretty good image quality in its class, on the whole a very nifty all-rounder. I sold it after getting the 10D; the guy who has it now is very happy with it. Nice to hear the A1 is even better, though.

We have seen the output, btw, and it's nothing to shout about -- to my eye, indistinguishable from the D7i's. Meaning, respectable digicam level, but certainly nowhere near DSLR class.

[snip]

Petteri
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Petteri Sulonen said:

We have seen the output, btw, and it's nothing to shout about -- to
my eye, indistinguishable from the D7i's. Meaning, respectable
digicam level, but certainly nowhere near DSLR class.

Click to expand...

So you mean that at it's best ISO , it's still like a 1D at ISO1600 then (( - I'd hoped that they'd have sorted that along with all the other things which made me avoid the D7 series like the plague when I couldn't afford a D30 or a D1 which seem to be cured by the A1.. I thought it was the heat of the D7 which created the noise, the A1 certainly doesn't seem to get anywhere near as warm..

The CCD IS system on the A1 is superb, we compared it to my 28-135IS at 135mm under dim shop lighting (similar effective Focal length) and it seemed just as good !!

The whole camera feels like a microscopic 10D with a Plastic Piston on it (shame the lens doesn't feel as good as the camera) , Rachael almost cried it was soo damn cute, I wish I'd shot the soppy look on her face holding it (it was like she was holding a new born Puppy) , there is a baby Big-Ed for it too which takes two batteries..

Given the price of the 300D Kit, the A1 should be £499 rather than £999 and if it was, Rach would have got out her credit card there and then and cradled the cute little thing all the way home - her S30 would have been on E-Bay faster than you can say Happycam ;-).. It really IS like an "Action Man" 1DS (Action man is a UK action figure which comes with all sorts of weaponry and now a DSLR ;-)

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Adam-T said:

Adam-T said:

We have seen the output, btw, and it's nothing to shout about -- to
my eye, indistinguishable from the D7i's. Meaning, respectable
digicam level, but certainly nowhere near DSLR class.

Click to expand...

So you mean that at it's best ISO , it's still like a 1D at ISO1600
then (( - I'd hoped that they'd have sorted that along with all
the other things which made me avoid the D7 series like the plague
when I couldn't afford a D30 or a D1 which seem to be cured by the
A1.. I thought it was the heat of the D7 which created the noise,
the A1 certainly doesn't seem to get anywhere near as warm..

Click to expand...

IMO the D7i at ISO100 is close to the 10D at ISO800. Comparing it to ISO1600 is definitely not quite fair. The 1D ain't that much better than the 10D. ;-)

Yep, I was a bit disappointed too. My take on the heat issue is that Minolta put the heat sink in the hand grip, which caused it to warm up a lot: the area around the sensor stayed quite cool, actually.

What were the "other things," by the way?

My biggest beefs with the D7i were sub-par build (the EVF rubber fell to bits, and it had an overall squeaky, creaky feel), I wasn't a big fan of babying the batteries, and of course there were all the limitations intrinsic to small-sensor digicams. But it handled well, like a miniature SLR really, was respectably fast (for its day and type), and image quality was sufficient if not stellar -- I've made some quite nice 8x10's from it.









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I'm in pretty much the same financial position (if a lot older!) but I've got a lot of film SLR experience. One thing I have learnt over the years. It's better to have a couple of really good lenses than a mass of poor quality lenses.

I shoot mainly garden, plant and nature photos. For that I need coverage from about 28 - 135mm (35mm equivelent). Longer telephotos would be nice - but not essential. I do need macro for insect, plant and fungi close ups.

Like you I'll be getting the 300D. I'll get the kit lens and add two other lenses. The 50mm f1.8 for portrait and short telephoto work and the Sigma 105mm macro for high quality macro shots and when I need a longer telephoto (168mm equivelent isn't bad for what I need). Total cost less than £400 UK (probably the same in dollars) - even less used.

The end result? One reasonable zoom for the wide angle end and two high quality lenses for moderate telephoto and macro work. That will cover a lot of shots.

Petteri Sulonen said:

What were the "other things," by the way?

Click to expand...

Sucked AAs like a 1D would, the AF made the S30 / G2 look good, the feel and build wasn't anywhere near the E10 (which I paid less for than the original 7 - the E10 is noisy too but no where near as bad and as a Tool is in a totally different league) the EVF put me off EVFs for life - the one in the A1 isn't fast but image wise it's on a par with the C2100UZ which although is way better than the D7 is still sad really as the UZI is a 3yr old camera, I'm not a fan of EVFs as a rule but could tolerate the A1 one.

Petteri Sulonen said:

I've made some quite nice 8x10's from it.

Click to expand...

The S30 knocks out superb A4s and that's 3Mp, admittedly, it's the least noisy Digicam I've ever encountered (next best in this respect to a D30) and the best 3Mp Digicam to date despite it's lousy lens and AF system - but if you enjoyed the D7 then great, it just annoyed me that it had all this potential, great layout and neither the i or Hi versions really improved it but still cost the earth, the A1 is a different matter entirely and I HOPE for their sakes that they got the noise at least down to Sony 717 / S45 levels.. they need to drop the Price to Fuji levels , the 6900 and 602 floored the Dimage series at far far less money..

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Adam-T said:

Adam-T said:

What were the "other things," by the way?

Click to expand...

Sucked AAs like a 1D would, the AF made the S30 / G2 look good, the
feel and build wasn't anywhere near the E10 (which I paid less for
than the original 7 - the E10 is noisy too but no where near as bad
and as a Tool is in a totally different league) the EVF put me off
EVFs for life - the one in the A1 isn't fast but image wise it's on
a par with the C2100UZ which although is way better than the D7 is
still sad really as the UZI is a 3yr old camera, I'm not a fan of
EVFs as a rule but could tolerate the A1 one.

Click to expand...

The battery life and AF were much better in the 7i (which I had). As to the EVF, it's very interesting: the ferroelectric widget they use seems to divide people. Some can't stand it. Others love it. I was one of the ones who loved it. I found the RGB ones on the likes of the 717, CP5700 etc. to be terrible. I'll give you the build, though.

Adam-T said:

Adam-T said:

I've made some quite nice 8x10's from it.

Click to expand...

The S30 knocks out superb A4s and that's 3Mp, admittedly, it's the
least noisy Digicam I've ever encountered (next best in this
respect to a D30) and the best 3Mp Digicam to date despite it's
lousy lens and AF system - but if you enjoyed the D7 then great, it
just annoyed me that it had all this potential, great layout and
neither the i or Hi versions really improved it but still cost the
earth, the A1 is a different matter entirely and I HOPE for their
sakes that they got the noise at least down to Sony 717 / S45
levels.. they need to drop the Price to Fuji levels , the 6900 and
602 floored the Dimage series at far far less money..

Click to expand...

For me, the 28 mm and the mechanical zoom ring were the deciding factors. Nothing else had them at the time, and I was willing to put up with a lot of minor inconveniences and figure out workarounds just for them.

Petteri
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Petteri Sulonen said:

For me, the 28 mm and the mechanical zoom ring were the deciding
factors.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately the E10 was a 35-140 and you had to pay £200 for a big clumsy WA converter to get 28mm but the whole camera was better built than a D60 with a 28-105 on, it had 640th sec Flash Sync, Voltage protected Hotshoe and PC Sync socket, the lens was very well made though in reality no better than a 28-105USM optically despite what people may say - that camera had it's downers too, Noise was the worst followed by very slow file handling / viewing and like Minolta they didn't improve on the Key faults (the E20 was even worse at file handling and noisier too if I remember rightly) but despite the letdowns it made a great studio tool for commercial work - lousy as a landscape camera where the noise intruded too much even at ISO80 - a Dimage-7 would have driven me nuts.. You can imagine how I felt when I got the D60!.

I made the best of the E10s positive points (shot a whole museum guidebook with it as Film was out of the budget for them) and tried not to let the negative ones get in the way - much like you did with the 7i - that's the best way to handle things and still do this with lenses ..

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Adam-T said:

Adam-T said:

For me, the 28 mm and the mechanical zoom ring were the deciding
factors.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately the E10 was a 35-140 and you had to pay £200 for a
big clumsy WA converter to get 28mm but the whole camera was better
built than a D60 with a 28-105 on, it had 640th sec Flash Sync,
Voltage protected Hotshoe and PC Sync socket, the lens was very
well made though in reality no better than a 28-105USM optically
despite what people may say - that camera had it's downers too,

Click to expand...

I know what you mean. I very nearly walked out of the store with an E-10 when I got to handle one.

Adam-T said:

Noise was the worst followed by very slow file handling / viewing
and like Minolta they didn't improve on the Key faults (the E20 was
even worse at file handling and noisier too if I remember rightly)
but despite the letdowns it made a great studio tool for commercial
work - lousy as a landscape camera where the noise intruded too
much even at ISO80 - a Dimage-7 would have driven me nuts.. You can
imagine how I felt when I got the D60!.

I made the best of the E10s positive points (shot a whole museum
guidebook with it as Film was out of the budget for them) and tried
not to let the negative ones get in the way - much like you did
with the 7i - that's the best way to handle things and still do
this with lenses ..

Click to expand...

Yup. Work with the strengths, work around the weaknesses.

I get the impression that most people who aren't happy with their cameras are either (a) not very proficient technically, (b) trying to do something the thing wasn't designed for, or (c) insisting on doing something the way they want to do it instead of the way the camera designers intended it.

There was this one guy who went through five cameras in six months, and hated all of them... and the only pictures of his that I ever saw were macros of flowers and bugs, a few still lives, and some basic studio portraits -- IMO nothing you couldn't get with any digicam with a halfway decent lens. (He seems to have resurfaced on 300D talk, btw... looks like yet another camera on the way...)

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Petteri Sulonen said:

There was this one guy who went through five cameras in six months,
and hated all of them...

Click to expand...

I always stuck with things, Had a K1000 complete with all the fast primes from 24 to 200mm , I ran this from 82 to 2002. Digicam wise, they got upgraded from time to time, the Nikon 950 lasted me from 1999 Til my aunt dropped it 15 feet to it's death last year, I'd still have it and wouldn't have bought the S30 if it still worked, the C2100 was my Digicam equivalent of buying a 100-400L IS , that went when I got the D60 .. The E10 like the 10D I have now was always a stopgap as I wanted a D30 but couldn't afford the tag - the D60 like the 1D I have now was intended as a keeper (I ran the D60 and 10D together until my brother kept pestering me for the D60 and I didn't expect the refurb 1D to come up, that is NOT a UK thing on the whole) ..

My Mk1 50 , 28-70L , 80-200L, 17-40L and 100 Macro are set in stone, the rest could get updated or not depending on the situation or circumstance.

That's the way I seem to work, somethings are always Keepers, Others are in flux ;-)

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DigiJK said:

I'm a teen, and money is a critical factor. I can't really go
over, say, 300 or 400 dollars more then the 900 of the 300D, and
preferably less.

Click to expand...

You're questions are well thought-out, so we know you're trying to make an intelligent decision. But I think you'd regret it if you dropped back to a p&s digicam.

I'm an old fogey of 42 years , but when I was a high-school student I saved for weeks for a Pentax K-1000 with included 50mm f/2 lens. Then saved for more weeks for a Sunpak flash & cheapo generic 70-210 zoom. Still later, a cheap 35mm wide-angle, 2x teleconverts, polarizer, closeup lens kit. I loved that camera & took countless pictures, bulk-loading b&w film and later learning to develop it myself.

You can't beat the flexibility of a true SLR system with interchangeable lenses. It will inspire you in a way that no p&s can.

There is nothing wrong, I repeat nothing wrong, with your basic plan for the 300D, pocket-rocket 70-200-ish zoom, and solid 50mm f/1.8 lens. You won't regret it.

• Zapped

Sample crops from Canon EOS-300D images taken on Day One (Sep 13, 2003) -
http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?show_all=1&start=1&id=4289134447