Waiting for camera with built-in radio flash trigger

dedirg · Jun 6, 2018

Is there any camera with this thing available now???? it should not too hard and need no big space in camera since existing wireless radio flash trigger which available in the market small enough with its battery slot and lcd. without both of that (which can join to camera's battery and lcd) the trigger only a small piece..

It is joyful if small camera (1" sensor) with it will exist, it will very useful for family and small party or something like that

dedirg

Max Iso · Jun 6, 2018

dedirg said:
Is there any camera with this thing available now???? it should not too hard and need no big space in camera since existing wireless radio flash trigger which available in the market small enough with its battery slot and lcd. without both of that (which can join to camera's battery and lcd) the trigger only a small piece..

It is joyful if small camera (1" sensor) with it will exist, it will very useful for family and small party or something like that

dedirg

Some Nikons like the D500 if i remember have a radio trigger. The problem becomes compatibility. There are so many brands and so many different models and generations within each brand, it would be a real pain to offer built in radio connection that's compatible with everything. So then you have to pick and choose who to ignore.

It's a great idea that's hindered by so many flash models, easier just to buy the aftermarket trigger to match your setup.

MarshallG · Jun 6, 2018

Max Iso said:
dedirg said:

Is there any camera with this thing available now???? it should not too hard and need no big space in camera since existing wireless radio flash trigger which available in the market small enough with its battery slot and lcd. without both of that (which can join to camera's battery and lcd) the trigger only a small piece..

It is joyful if small camera (1" sensor) with it will exist, it will very useful for family and small party or something like that

dedirg

Click to expand...

Some Nikons like the D500 if i remember have a radio trigger.

No. Neither Nikon, Canon nor Sony... or any other camera maker I’m aware of... includes a built-in wireless RADIO flash controller. Many Canon DSLR’s with built-in flash can use the flash as a wireless flash trigger, but these optically-triggered solutions are limited because of line of site, and also because the on-camera flash must fire during exposure, which affects the catchlights and has otherwise non-desirable effects.

I have a Canon ST-E3 radio flash trigger and it’s great once you set it up correctly, with a custom radio channel and ID selected on the transmitter and all of your flash units. It’s compact and very effective. Nikon also makes one and there are third party systems, but I prefer the way Canon integrates their solution with the camera’s menus.

Even so... YES, this should definitely be a built-in feature of high end DSLR’s.

Ellis Vener · Jun 6, 2018

MarshallG said:
MarshallG wrote:

Max Iso said:

dedirg said:

Is there any camera with this thing available now???? it should not too hard and need no big space in camera since existing wireless radio flash trigger which available in the market small enough with its battery slot and lcd. without both of that (which can join to camera's battery and lcd) the trigger only a small piece..

It is joyful if small camera (1" sensor) with it will exist, it will very useful for family and small party or something like that

dedirg

Click to expand...

Some Nikons like the D500 if i remember have a radio trigger.

Click to expand...

No. Neither Nikon, Canon nor Sony... or any other camera maker I’m aware of... includes a built-in wireless RADIO flash controller. Many Canon DSLR’s with built-in flash can use the flash as a wireless flash trigger, but these optically-triggered solutions are limited because of line of site, and also because the on-camera flash must fire during exposure, which affects the catchlights and has otherwise non-desirable effects.

I have a Canon ST-E3 radio flash trigger and it’s great once you set it up correctly, with a custom radio channel and ID selected on the transmitter and all of your flash units. It’s compact and very effective. Nikon also makes one and there are third party systems, but I prefer the way Canon integrates their solution with the camera’s menus.

Even so... YES, this should definitely be a built-in feature of high end DSLR’s.

MarshallG said:
great idea, but which brand of radio should they be compatible with?

Elinchrom, Godox/Flashpoint, PocketWizard (ControlTL or standard), Profoto, Broncolor, Quantum Radio Slave, Paul C. Buff Inc., Hensel, Yongnuo, Canon (for Canon), Nikon (for Nikon), Sony (for Sony), something else?

For a short period about 12 years ago Nikon and PocketWizard were working on a project together putting PocketWizard (standard frequencies) transceivers inside D2X cameras.

MarshallG · Jun 6, 2018

Ellis Vener said:
Ellis Vener said:

MarshallG wrote:

Max Iso said:

dedirg said:

Is there any camera with this thing available now???? it should not too hard and need no big space in camera since existing wireless radio flash trigger which available in the market small enough with its battery slot and lcd. without both of that (which can join to camera's battery and lcd) the trigger only a small piece..

It is joyful if small camera (1" sensor) with it will exist, it will very useful for family and small party or something like that

dedirg

Click to expand...

Some Nikons like the D500 if i remember have a radio trigger.

Click to expand...

No. Neither Nikon, Canon nor Sony... or any other camera maker I’m aware of... includes a built-in wireless RADIO flash controller. Many Canon DSLR’s with built-in flash can use the flash as a wireless flash trigger, but these optically-triggered solutions are limited because of line of site, and also because the on-camera flash must fire during exposure, which affects the catchlights and has otherwise non-desirable effects.

I have a Canon ST-E3 radio flash trigger and it’s great once you set it up correctly, with a custom radio channel and ID selected on the transmitter and all of your flash units. It’s compact and very effective. Nikon also makes one and there are third party systems, but I prefer the way Canon integrates their solution with the camera’s menus.

Even so... YES, this should definitely be a built-in feature of high end DSLR’s.

great idea, but which brand of radio should they be compatible with?

Click to expand...

Elinchrom, Godox/Flashpoint, PocketWizard (ControlTL or standard), Profoto, Broncolor, Quantum Radio Slave, Paul C. Buff Inc., Hensel, Yongnuo, Canon (for Canon), Nikon (for Nikon), Sony (for Sony), something else?

For a short period about 12 years ago Nikon and PocketWizard were working on a project together putting PocketWizard (standard frequencies) transceivers inside D2X cameras.

techjedi · Jun 7, 2018

dedirg said:
Is there any camera with this thing available now???? it should not too hard and need no big space in camera since existing wireless radio flash trigger which available in the market small enough with its battery slot and lcd. without both of that (which can join to camera's battery and lcd) the trigger only a small piece..

It is joyful if small camera (1" sensor) with it will exist, it will very useful for family and small party or something like that

dedirg

Even if a brand added it with full compatibility with every brand radio flash, I would never use it.

Having the extra set of controls and LCD display to quickly change exposure settings on multiple groups of external flashes remotely is critical. Leaving it up to mapping buttons on the camera itself or tapping on the back LCD would be extremely limiting/annoying in my use case.

While I respect your desire for this, I would prefer my chosen brand include something else in the camera body than make space for this.

Mike_PEAT · Jun 7, 2018

Any product that uses/emits radio frequencies has to have certification in the country that it is used.

Every country has its own regulations, and to produce a radio product that will be sold all over the world you need to get approval from every country where it will be sold. Even Canada (DOC) and the US (FCC) has different regulations. A product that's legal to use in one country may be illegal in another. If a camera had a radio in it it would have to have a different model for each country's radio frequencies, and would have to pay additional fees for certifications in each of those countries. Most who travel take cameras without thinking they would have to turn off any built-in radio transmitter.

For instance, in the US "X" frequency may be allowed to be used, but if you take that product to another country "X" frequency may be used by that country's military and transmitting on it could get you arrested!

Camera manufacturers get around this by using external/third-party devices for radio.

But if you fully read the manual for those third-party devices you will find a passage warning you of all this.

For instance in the OM-D manual when it talks about use of the Eye-Fi wireless card it says, "Use in accordance with local regulations. Onboard airplanes and in other locations in which the use of wireless devices is prohibited, remove the Eye-Fi card from the camera or select [Off] for [Eye-Fi]. "

BertIverson · Jun 7, 2018

For Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, Olympus I believe $46 --- use with Godox flash units of course.

my 0.02
Bert

d750guy · Jun 7, 2018

dedirg said:
Is there any camera with this thing available now???? it should not too hard and need no big space in camera since existing wireless radio flash trigger which available in the market small enough with its battery slot and lcd. without both of that (which can join to camera's battery and lcd) the trigger only a small piece..

It is joyful if small camera (1" sensor) with it will exist, it will very useful for family and small party or something like that

dedirg

Then you'd be stuck using Canikony's overpriced, propriety flashes with their proprietary built in triggers. And none of the big three camera makers make studio strobes so you're stuck with tiny hotshoe flashes.

MarshallG · Jun 7, 2018

Mike_PEAT said:
Any product that uses/emits radio frequencies has to have certification in the country that it is used.

Every country has its own regulations, and to produce a radio product that will be sold all over the world you need to get approval from every country where it will be sold. Even Canada (DOC) and the US (FCC) has different regulations. A product that's legal to use in one country may be illegal in another. If a camera had a radio in it it would have to have a different model for each country's radio frequencies, and would have to pay additional fees for certifications in each of those countries. Most who travel take cameras without thinking they would have to turn off any built-in radio transmitter.

For instance, in the US "X" frequency may be allowed to be used, but if you take that product to another country "X" frequency may be used by that country's military and transmitting on it could get you arrested!

Camera manufacturers get around this by using external/third-party devices for radio.

But if you fully read the manual for those third-party devices you will find a passage warning you of all this.

For instance in the OM-D manual when it talks about use of the Eye-Fi wireless card it says, "Use in accordance with local regulations. Onboard airplanes and in other locations in which the use of wireless devices is prohibited, remove the Eye-Fi card from the camera or select [Off] for [Eye-Fi]. "

Many Canon cameras have WiFi.

WiFi operates at 2.4 and 5 GHz.

Canon's wireless flash transmitters operate at 2.4 GHz. So... they're already selling you a camera that's built in accordance with the regulations for transmission of 2.4 GHz. What's more, all of their RT flash transmitters and Speedlights are certified for 2.4 GHz worldwide. So I don't think regulatory approval is the reason why.

Mike_PEAT · Jun 8, 2018

MarshallG said:
Mike_PEAT said:

Any product that uses/emits radio frequencies has to have certification in the country that it is used.

Every country has its own regulations, and to produce a radio product that will be sold all over the world you need to get approval from every country where it will be sold. Even Canada (DOC) and the US (FCC) has different regulations. A product that's legal to use in one country may be illegal in another. If a camera had a radio in it it would have to have a different model for each country's radio frequencies, and would have to pay additional fees for certifications in each of those countries. Most who travel take cameras without thinking they would have to turn off any built-in radio transmitter.

Click to expand...

Many Canon cameras have WiFi.

WiFi operates at 2.4 and 5 GHz.

Canon's wireless flash transmitters operate at 2.4 GHz. So... they're already selling you a camera that's built in accordance with the regulations for transmission of 2.4 GHz. What's more, all of their RT flash transmitters and Speedlights are certified for 2.4 GHz worldwide. So I don't think regulatory approval is the reason why.

You MISSED the part that I quoted from MY text above. Again any device that emits (transmits) radio frequency has to go through extended testing in EVERY country in which it might be used. If you look through your camera's manual you will see letters like FCC, DOC, CE, IUT, etc...it has undergone standard testing for radio interference. However if it's a transmitter/uses radio frequency it has to undergo more advanced testing and that costs more money for the manufacturer.

I own a FCC/US certified CB radio/transmitter that is NOT DOC/Canada certified. Canada and the US use the EXACT SAME CB radio frequencies but it is ILLEGAL for me to use this radio in Canada because it transmits at a higher power level than Canada permits. I admit I still packed it when I went camping in Canada because if I got into trouble I'd rather risk the fine than the risk of not being able to reach someone in an emergency (I had other legal/DOC approved CB radios for non-emergencies/chit-chat).

Richard B99 · Jun 8, 2018

d750guy said:
dedirg said:

Is there any camera with this thing available now???? it should not too hard and need no big space in camera since existing wireless radio flash trigger which available in the market small enough with its battery slot and lcd. without both of that (which can join to camera's battery and lcd) the trigger only a small piece..

It is joyful if small camera (1" sensor) with it will exist, it will very useful for family and small party or something like that

dedirg

Click to expand...

Then you'd be stuck using Canikony's overpriced, propriety flashes with their proprietary built in triggers. And none of the big three camera makers make studio strobes so you're stuck with tiny hotshoe flashes.

I have to agree with this. Consider it a blessing instead of a problem as you don't end up paying more for a feature that you may not want to use. Plus another transceiver pulling power from the camera battery is going to drain that main battery faster. Sometimes an add on unit with its own power is advantageous.

Of course you do get locked into any wireless flash system whatever direction you go as none of them are interchangeable plus, you need to get the right version to function with your camera manufacture's TTL flash.

I still use simple (non TTL) Yongnuo RF-603ii for manual off camera flash and they have stood the test of time. I find I don't need TTL off camera and only use it for on-camera flash. But I can see why many might like off camera TTL too.

PerTulip · Jun 8, 2018

Mike_PEAT said:
Any product that uses/emits radio frequencies has to have certification in the country that it is used.

Every country has its own regulations, and to produce a radio product that will be sold all over the world you need to get approval from every country where it will be sold. Even Canada (DOC) and the US (FCC) has different regulations. A product that's legal to use in one country may be illegal in another. If a camera had a radio in it it would have to have a different model for each country's radio frequencies, and would have to pay additional fees for certifications in each of those countries. Most who travel take cameras without thinking they would have to turn off any built-in radio transmitter.

For instance, in the US "X" frequency may be allowed to be used, but if you take that product to another country "X" frequency may be used by that country's military and transmitting on it could get you arrested!

....

A problem already solved by phone makers, radio trigger makers, remote device makers, computer makers (WiFi), camera makers (cameras with built-in WiFi), etc. So what's the big issue?

I'd rather not have a built-in radio trigger because for proper range, a tiny device with minuscule antenna just doesn't work.

PerTulip · Jun 8, 2018

Mike_PEAT said:
Mike_PEAT said:

...

Click to expand...

... Again any device that emits (transmits) radio frequency has to go through extended testing in EVERY country in which it might be used. If you look through your camera's manual you will see letters like FCC, DOC, CE, IUT, etc.....

Usage of ISM frequencies doesn't requiere "extended testing", whatever that is. Pocket Wizards i.e. uses the ISM band. For most applications "CE" just means "The maker states that this devies complies to the regulations. You can look that up in the EU "blue guide" or EN ISO/IEC 17050-1:2004 or EN ISO/IEC 17050-2:2004. It's the same procedure as for any garage door opener. Very simple. Or how do you think cheap devices (same regulations) get to the market of "extended" and complicated testing would be necessary?

What makes Pocket Wizards so expensive is their range and reliability. That separates them from the knock-offs.

No idea how the FCC handles the ISM band, but I would guess not much different.

TacticDesigns · Jun 8, 2018

dedirg said:
Is there any camera with this thing available now???? it should not too hard and need no big space in camera since existing wireless radio flash trigger which available in the market small enough with its battery slot and lcd. without both of that (which can join to camera's battery and lcd) the trigger only a small piece..

It is joyful if small camera (1" sensor) with it will exist, it will very useful for family and small party or something like that

dedirg

IMHO I would be surprised to see this built into a small camera.

1. As someone pointed out, radio triggers probably need to be registered and will increase the cost of the camera. Personally, I'd rather not have it and keep the complexity and cost of the camera down.

2. It might increase the size of the camera, as more components and circuitry would be needed.

I kinda assume that most users with small cameras would probably not carry around an external flash unit, so this feature would mostly go unused.

I would be just as happy to have a TTL hot shoe on the camera. Like I have with my Pentax Q.

As for wirelessly triggering a flash off camera with a small camera . . . the Ricoh GR II does that.

Features3｜GR II | RICOH IMAGING

Get Real.Capture the Truth.

www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp

It uses the built-in flash to trigger an off camera Pentax flash.

NOTE: Strangely . . . the Ricoh GR II does not work with a Pentax flash in the hotshoe itself.

NOTE: I think the Ricoh GR had that feature, but it sync'd with the Ricoh flash units, not the Pentax flash units.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

Pontoneer · Jun 8, 2018

MarshallG said:
Max Iso said:

dedirg said:

Is there any camera with this thing available now???? it should not too hard and need no big space in camera since existing wireless radio flash trigger which available in the market small enough with its battery slot and lcd. without both of that (which can join to camera's battery and lcd) the trigger only a small piece..

It is joyful if small camera (1" sensor) with it will exist, it will very useful for family and small party or something like that

dedirg

Click to expand...

Some Nikons like the D500 if i remember have a radio trigger.

Click to expand...

No. Neither Nikon, Canon nor Sony... or any other camera maker I’m aware of... includes a built-in wireless RADIO flash controller. Many Canon DSLR’s with built-in flash can use the flash as a wireless flash trigger, but these optically-triggered solutions are limited because of line of site, and also because the on-camera flash must fire during exposure, which affects the catchlights and has otherwise non-desirable effects.

I have a Canon ST-E3 radio flash trigger and it’s great once you set it up correctly, with a custom radio channel and ID selected on the transmitter and all of your flash units. It’s compact and very effective. Nikon also makes one and there are third party systems, but I prefer the way Canon integrates their solution with the camera’s menus.

Even so... YES, this should definitely be a built-in feature of high end DSLR’s.

Yes , all cameras I am aware of use the built in flash as an optical trigger ( or a camera mounted flash as a master/controller ) ; however it is possible ( at least with Pentax ) to use a setting so that the on camera flash does not contribute to the exposure - this is done by using a pre-flash before the exposure to trigger the remote flashes . If desired the on board flash can contribute to the exposure by selecting as required .

As stated , line of sight can lead to this system being unreliable , I have come across this with Nikon where the sensors on the flashguns was on one side and thus one was always out of sight of the controlling flash on the camera .

Since I don't have any modern Pentax flashes ( I use Metz , some of which can be configured as optical masters/slaves ) I use the Cactus V6ii radio triggers . The Cactus triggers are , to the best of my knowledge , unique in as much as they allow users of different camera brands to mix and match with flashes from different systems and retain TTL wireless flash across the multiple systems - again I haven't tested this as all my flashes are Metz with Pentax SCA adaptors , but according to the manufacturer I could connect Canon , Nikon and other flashes in any mixture and all at the same time .

Like others , it does seem somewhat surprising that manufacturers haven't included this feature in flagship models .

Cactus do make flashes with the radio receiver built in , so you only need the one transmitter on the camera .

Some standards like wi-fi or Bluetooth are used across the globe ; alternatively this could be implemented by installable modules , perhaps inside a battery grip , which could vary from one country to another .

Mark B. · Jun 8, 2018

Max Iso said:
dedirg said:

Is there any camera with this thing available now???? it should not too hard and need no big space in camera since existing wireless radio flash trigger which available in the market small enough with its battery slot and lcd. without both of that (which can join to camera's battery and lcd) the trigger only a small piece..

It is joyful if small camera (1" sensor) with it will exist, it will very useful for family and small party or something like that

dedirg

Click to expand...

Some Nikons like the D500 if i remember have a radio trigger. The problem becomes compatibility. There are so many brands and so many different models and generations within each brand, it would be a real pain to offer built in radio connection that's compatible with everything. So then you have to pick and choose who to ignore.

I agree with this. I like my Yongnuo 622 transmitter & transceivers; as long as the attached flash has basic Canon E-TTL compatibility they'll work with pretty much any flash, Canon or 3rd party.

Mark

sybersitizen · Jun 8, 2018

I'm not. It would almost certainly mean being locked in to the camera manufacturer's expensive radio system, and with whatever limitations that might have.

MarshallG · Jun 8, 2018

Mike_PEAT said:
MarshallG said:

Mike_PEAT said:

Any product that uses/emits radio frequencies has to have certification in the country that it is used.

Every country has its own regulations, and to produce a radio product that will be sold all over the world you need to get approval from every country where it will be sold. Even Canada (DOC) and the US (FCC) has different regulations. A product that's legal to use in one country may be illegal in another. If a camera had a radio in it it would have to have a different model for each country's radio frequencies, and would have to pay additional fees for certifications in each of those countries. Most who travel take cameras without thinking they would have to turn off any built-in radio transmitter.

Click to expand...

Many Canon cameras have WiFi.

WiFi operates at 2.4 and 5 GHz.

Canon's wireless flash transmitters operate at 2.4 GHz. So... they're already selling you a camera that's built in accordance with the regulations for transmission of 2.4 GHz. What's more, all of their RT flash transmitters and Speedlights are certified for 2.4 GHz worldwide. So I don't think regulatory approval is the reason why.

Click to expand...

You MISSED the part that I quoted from MY text above. Again any device that emits (transmits) radio frequency has to go through extended testing in EVERY country in which it might be used. If you look through your camera's manual you will see letters like FCC, DOC, CE, IUT, etc...it has undergone standard testing for radio interference. However if it's a transmitter/uses radio frequency it has to undergo more advanced testing and that costs more money for the manufacturer.

I own a FCC/US certified CB radio/transmitter that is NOT DOC/Canada certified. Canada and the US use the EXACT SAME CB radio frequencies but it is ILLEGAL for me to use this radio in Canada because it transmits at a higher power level than Canada permits. I admit I still packed it when I went camping in Canada because if I got into trouble I'd rather risk the fine than the risk of not being able to reach someone in an emergency (I had other legal/DOC approved CB radios for non-emergencies/chit-chat).

Regulatory approval isn’t the reason. Canon and Nikon already manufacture and sell these transmitter devices, and the Speedlights with built-in radio flash receivers also transmit. They have to transmit in order to be discovered by the transmitter.

Waiting for camera with built-in radio flash trigger

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