Tommi . . . Your post had some well thought-out explanations about the Olympus menu system.
. . . Steven
Tommi K1 wrote:
Kharan wrote:
Tommi K1 wrote:
Still waiting someone to show what would be more logical menu and explain why it is so....
Let's just review some of the "charming" aspects of Olympus menus:
- On the first page alone there's much to discuss. The FIRST available option leads to format and erase all. Seriously, WTFF? It's risky, and these things don't warrant a prime position like that. And then we have Mysets, Picture Mode, "disintegrating diamond", aspect ratio and digital teleconverter. I really, really want to see your justification for this mess of unrelated things.
Yes, that is maybe most used setting in Olympus Menu once you have programmed the camera MySets (Custom settings) as otherwise you use Fn buttons and dials and Super Control Panel. You don't really go to Menu for other things than format the card or delete all.
That is one of the most important features as when you work with multiple cards or you want to get card cleared from other than locked images.
- Then, on the second page, is the stuff that people might care about: drive mode, stabilization, bracketing, flash exp. comp... and remote flash control?
Stabilization? Where you see it in Shooting Menu 2?
Bracketing includes all more specialized like Focus bracketing, exposure bracketing etc. Something you don't find from SCP but you might have in Fn button so you might want to change that. There ain't either the flash exposure compensation there, there is to turn On/Off the Flash Remote Control
Multiple exposures? These are things rarely used by most people! Is it so hard to group multiple exposure under the drive mode menu?
Sequence mode is not same thing as Double Exposure.
Exposure and Sequence programming are different things.
Or RC mode and compensation under a general item called "Flash"?
Flash Remote Control master mode ain't same thing as adjusting flash power or flash release mode that both you get from SCP.
I mean, it's the freakin' second page of the menu, and while I cannot adjust the actual, honest-to-dog exposure, or flash mode, or curtain priority, I can turn the commander on (even on cameras without a built-in flash). Extremely logical
Because they are in Shooting Menu 2, where you go rarely, as you do all that you want to do in Super Control Panel or Live Mode panel, both that you access while operating camera by pressing OK.
- Why does a heart mean "silent shutter"?
Silent like a heartbeat? What icon you would have chosen for it? S like a "Silent"? In what language that would be? Heart icon symbolizes many things in most cultures and everyone who knows what heart is, knows as well its beating sound level, you can hear it if you are close enough, not if further.
And a diamond "anti-shock"?
"Sharp as diamond" you know that? One of the most hardest materials we know and used for sharp cutting compared to other cutting methods.
What you would have used? A like "Anti-Shock" and in what language?
Try to do icon with 16x16 pixels by using only black and white... Not easy at all!
Why is EFCS conflated with shutter delay (both use the same hieroglyph)?
Please refine your question.
Why is it called "S-IS 1" instead of something rational like "Mode 1"?
Because S means "Still" and M means "Movie" and 1 means all, 2 means vertical only, 3 means horizontal only and then there is Auto. Try to do that with different languages as well. Very easy to remember and adjust in horry. And do you know what is written on many lenses IS switches? Numbers, to separate the different modes. And as we can rotate camera vertically or horizontally, we can't use arrows to point the direction as they would point wrong direction, why numbers are better to separate the modes.
Why are there "one fish" and "two fishes" for WB?
Fish lives under water, it is clear symbol that it is for underwater photography where the water properties changes the sunlight white balance. The amount of fishes (that I haven't seen/noticed) is good way to separate the mode for underwater photography in different scenes.
- What's the whole point of the "Playback Menu"?
When you attach the camera to television or printer, you are playing back the stored images on card. From there you can start the presentation that you can use on TV or you can print the files. You can as well from there two 2-3 image stacking with adjusted 10% stepping passthrough.
Olympus decided to give the most useless options a whole tab to themselves, even when there aren't enough items to fill a page, while instead burying all of the good stuff.
Very well placed menu for the people who uses the playback and connection features in camera like USB, edits images creatively on the go, prints photos out (you seem not to be one of those who uses mobile printers on the go by giving a small print as gift for the subject).
Just one of many features Olympus offers that you don't need.
You really mean to tell me that this page didn't deserve to be stuck in one of the "gears" tabs?
Yes, as it is playback menu, separated from Shooting Menu 1 and Shooting Menu 2 that are for casual people more demanding settings for settings that are not in physical buttons nor in Super Control Panel or Live Mode.
The Custom Menu (that you refer as "gears" is for more permanent settings that affects for all modes.
- Please tell me how am I supposed to realize that "gears" are everything from flash to anti-shock to dial turning direction to metering mode!?
Because they are not there.
Please refer to the Custom menu where you find the setting of the shutter release mode? Where you set the flash modes?
Exposure Metering belongs to Exposure, why in permanent settings you get to choose it from Menu > Custom > Exposure > Metering as you are there as well adjusting the alternative metering mode for AEL function.
One of the stranger things is why the "Exposure Shift" is not in E but in K for "Utility", but if you think it little bit you get that you are not suppose to adjust the exposure via that but you are calibrating your camera exposure metering that you should do in carefully controlled situation where you know that exposure is specific amount off.
From there K utility menu the On/Off for a touch screen could have been set to D as Display, as there are the display sleep timers and backlit settings as well. But when you think about it little more, you understand it is not the same thing as turning On/Off the AF or Shutter release with touch screen but it is disabling the touch screen all together and any of those functions are not anymore used as in Playback all touch screen functions are now disabled (multiple image selection, image share, image locking, scrolling etc) and it is not affecting just for one thing but overall camera utilization.
You realize that one of these things is far more important than the other two, right? And that "wrench" are... language, time, date and display settings? WTFF?
What other two?
Yes, behind the "wrench" is Setup menu. From there you set like date, language and check firmware as well enable disable the Custom Menu based how much you want someone to change things around (like when handing the camera to someone else)
But the one of the few odd things really is that why display color calibration is there, instead in Custom Menu Utility? Why the Playback menu timer is not in Playback menu where you can turn on/off the automatic image rotation based EXIF data when playing them back on camera, TV or putting on printer?
As well the Accessory Port menu that includes attached EVF, could have been moved to Custom > J, and rename it from "Built-in EVF" as "EVF" and then separate there the attached or built in, graying out the external when not attached.
But you can see Olympus had future plans for their Accessory Port to be used for many things, not just external viewfinder but as well their Bluetooth PENPAL sharing to phones and other future options. But looks like they abandoned the accessory port side at some point as they saw even external viewfinders useless why they have removed the accessory ports from latest models.
I could continue all day.
Yes but you don't have made other than couple good points in Setup menu. Setup means Set Up so it is first time settings. What is as well likely why the screen color calibration is there as you set it once and then leave it totally away as you don't calibrate its colors anymore.
As a primarily Sony shooter, I have learned to live with their also-absurd menu structure, but that doesn't mean that I'll say their interface is good. Yes, I can find everything quite quickly in there, but I also realize that anyone unfamiliar with the camera will struggle. This just doesn't happen as much with Canon or Panasonic or Pentax cameras, which have a far more rational approach.
Canon has terrible menu structure, totally out of logic.
Olympus gathers all few places.
- Physical controls
- SCP/Live Mode
And if you need to go to Menu, then
- Shooting Menu 1
- Shooting Menu 2
And if you need to make more specific camera setting changes, then
And there almost all are logically grouped by their purpose. Focusing system related things goes to AF menu. Display related are in Display. Shutter functions are in Release menu etc. You don't need to search anything as all are categorized and grouped.
It's quite easy to pinpoint what the problem is: Olympus menus were designed by the engineers, who know their product intimately, and make full use of all the available physical controls.
It is as well made by logic to group same functions to same group. Focusing related things are suppose to be in Focus. Sequence modes goes with the programming of the release, so they belong to shutter functions.
Canon doesn't do anything like that. Panasonic doesn't do that. They just throw bunch of stuff together to same places like you set image resolution with red eye reduction or metering mode with the card formatting.
None of those has anything to do with each others!
I'm sure that one or more of the Oly defenders will yell that there's buttons and dials for all of this, but that's the thing - when I use an unfamiliar camera, if I can't find the controls directly on the body, I'll go into the menu.
Seems like you haven't find many things on body nor on screen, instead you have dived straight to menu and then don't see the logic because you don't even know what you are searching for.
Olympus' warped logic is not at all meant for that kind of behavior, however - the menus are a dog's breakfast of beginners' and experts' settings with no ground in between for experienced photographers that come from different backgrounds, or even Olympus shooters trying to learn more advanced techniques. This last group, in particular, has no other option but to sit down and study carefully about whatever they're wanting to experiment with, because a wrong turn in the "gears" maze can mean a ton of frustration and lost shooting opportunities.
And now you can start learning why there are Shooting Menu 1 and Shooting Menu 2, SCP/Live Mode, because you do not go in those settings unless you know what you need to do. And all that requires You know you. You don't need to know the camera, you need to know what you want to do, then you can easily do all as you know exactly where to go.
But if you can't even separate what difference is between sequence mode and autofocus mode or white balance and flash exposure compensation, it will be difficult.
Grab a Panasonic, and what do your find? The first tab are photo settings, in order of importance.
Illogical.
The second tab are video settings. They don't care if there's redundancy between the two tabs, because at different moments a video or stills shooter might need to alter the same item, but try to access it from the respective tab.
Illogical.
The actual, sophisticated camera customization options come later. But the thing is that, if one needs to change WB or metering or stabilization, and there aren't clearly-labelled buttons for it, it's a simple matter of going into the menu and looking for the relevant option.
That is with Olympus. But if you are searching for "color balance of white" and you see "Balance des blancs" then it is difficult to really know what you are doing.
The settings for a given type should be found on same group. If your setting is about shutter function, it should be there among others related to the shutter functions. You don't go "what is most important" as different people has different priorities. So you put them to logical grouping so everyone regardless their requirement or priorities can find it.
IT is like the alphabets in phonebook, you don't put Z among A or AB among CH as you can't find them. When you are searching for a plumber, then you go to yellow pages on that section and you get all businesses for that. You don't find a surgeon or hospital among plumbers.
With Canon cameras it's equally simple.
After over decade use of Canon, I totally disagree. But one of that is I learned Canon menu fully in and out and they don't have the features nor functions like Olympus.
This approach can seem "ass-backwards" to the person that has been using Olympus digital stuff since the time of the dinosaurs, but the truth is that the cameras are immensely customizable, and so the people who need the menu the most (i.e. people unfamiliar with the product) are denied proper access to it in favor of diehards that: a) would readily adapt to changes, because they're, well, diehards; and b) don't need to use the menu, because they have the have their camera set up already!
So now you are contradicting yourself. You are whining how the menus are so difficult and bad, and then you say that they ain't bad for people who don't need to menu who has successfully set all they want outside of the menu.
Meaning the menu ain't bad because it has done exactly its purpose, allow to program the camera for their needs and not use it anymore. And that Olympus menu is exactly great in that as most is categorized to same logical groups so when you take the camera and you program the things, you don't need to search them, you go to group to that your wanted things belong. "I want to adjust the lens focus ring behavior" informs you exactly that you find it in the group of the Auto-Focus. It ain't often changed setting so it is not in SCP/Live Mode.
Olympus places most same group settings to same groups. So when a beginner takes the camera out and want to learn things about Auto-Focus, the settings are all next to each others. There is no Red Eye reduction or card formatting or image resolution settings when they are setting all related to automatic focusing.
Where in blazes is the logic in that?
In Canon.
Majority of the photographers want things to be simple and easy to them. They only need to adjust shutter speed, adjust aperture, adjust ISO and they are good to go. Change focal length and that's it.
Instead going for M mode, they go for the automatic modes where they are constantly fighting with the automatic modes for the exposure, for the focusing and many other things.
They go through forums and video tutorials and they ask "what camera you have", "what settings you use" etc.
They just want to copy things, dial them to camera and instantly be successful and great, without learning why they do things.
What the photography requires is that person sees the light, shapes the light and uses the light. All that is required with the camera is to point it and release shutter.
Majority of people I talk about cameras has never even read their cameras manual or opened it. THey just want to start playing with it and then twiddle how it works.
They expect that the camera does the work.
