Nasty color bleed on pushed A7III RAW (compressed, silent shutter)

Started 6 months ago | Discussions thread
PhozoKozmos
PhozoKozmos Contributing Member • Posts: 698
Re: SONY steep short+wide optical projection to sensor is cause (not file format related)

JimKasson wrote:

PhozoKozmos wrote:

JimKasson wrote:

PhozoKozmos wrote:

JimKasson wrote:

PhozoKozmos wrote:

JimKasson wrote:

PhozoKozmos wrote:

JimKasson wrote:

PhozoKozmos wrote:

JimKasson wrote:

PhozoKozmos wrote:

JimKasson wrote:

PhozoKozmos wrote:

SONY steep short+wide optical projection to sensor is cause (not file format related)

anything in foreground out-of-focus will have an expanded blurred ghost

but if it is projected at a very wide-angle onto a very close sensor surface, more of the ghost can be spread farther across more adjacent pixels and pick up the extra light

unlikely, file format related, as ooc (fine only) Sony jpeg paired with Sony RAW will exhibit same effect (regardless of compression or not, and mechanical shutter or not)

This effect is not FFD related here, for even ray-angle related (except the calculation of CoC being focal-plane focus error over f-stop). It is entirely explained by the out-of-focus point spread functions of defocused rays convolved with the objects in front of the lens.

oof point spread is normal, yes

however, i suspect the steep ray-angle may be susceptible in exacerbating a wider spread than usual

Nope. OOF PSF is a function of focus plane error and f stop only, if there are no internal lens occlusions.

You need to address the point above for your argument to have a chance of being credible, I think.

i'm not attributing oof psf to lens flaws, per se

but rather to specific lenses with very short-wide projection geometry of needing to cover a wide area (FF) in a very short throw

much like "short throw" light projectors, situated very close to projection surface

the closer, the more difficult to design the optics

it includes exacerbated chromatic aberration spread

You talking LaCA? If so, that is not true, in my experience.

you may simply have chosen better lenses, so you will not encounter it

short ffd only applies for lenses with a short-but-wide lens-sensor dimension LSFD

The FFD doesn't change when you change lenses.

agree. body-flange-sensor dimension (BFSD) never changes, it is fixed 18mm for A7III; but this has nothing to do with lens-sensor focal dimension (LSFD)

not long LSFD

not exceptionally short-but-shallow LSFD (like lenses with 16.7mm back focus, where lens optic rear opening is huge, so projection is shallower)

IMHO, this is a complete red herring.

e.g.

fujifilm GFX50S have primes like the new 250mm f4, with 57.1mm (minimum) LSFD, even though its body-flange-sensor dimension is a fixed 26.7mm. other fujifilm lenses could have as little as 16.7mm LSFD (minimum) according to fujifilm GFX50S specs

LSFD varies with specific lens

Define LSFD, and tell me how it is different from the location of the exit pupil.

Define "exit pupil".

The exit pupil of a lens is the image of its aperture stop as seen from the back of the lens. Relevant parameters are the size of the pupil, its shape, and the distance from the focal plane.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit_pupil

ok. got it.

keyword is "image of aperture"

for a poor lens, with say high LaCA:

  • that "image of aperture" will have yellow fringing on the nearer aperture edge
  • that "image of aperture" will have blue fringing on the far (opposite) aperture edge

when either are projected onto the focal plane (and sensor stack):

  • the nearer yellow fringe will project at a shallower angle along with unfringed colors, and not stand apart as strongly as blue fringing, on image plane (including sensor stack)
  • the farther blue fringing will project at very wide steeper angle more separated from unfringed colors, on image plane (including sensor stack)

It may coincide with LSFD, or may be unrelated.

LSFD = Lens (Rear of last Optic) to Sensor Plane Focal Dimension (distance)

It turns out they are not the same, then. But LSFD is irrelevant. The last optic in an a7x system is the sensor stack, right? It is very close to the focal plane.

wrong:

  • the LAST optic of the interchangeable lens, is at the REAR of the lens
  • the FIRST optic of an a7x/a9 system is the sensor stack, very close to the focal plane

But that's got nothing to do with ray angles.

ray angles are shallow, nearly parallel to lens axis within the sensor stack, projecting onto the focal plane

however, ray angles will vary far off from lens axis, by lenses, by how far the last optic in the rear of the len is to the first optic (sensor stack) acting like a projection screen over the focal plane

The exit pupil does.

i think we are refering to the same rear optic of the lens, here. (=exit pupil)

The exit pupil can be at the same location as the last non-stack element in the lens.

yes. for wider-angle lenses, provided the rear lens diameter optic is especially large, relative to sensor size, then LSFD is "short-large-shallow"

this projection geometry would match longer LSFD

again: not for those that are "short-wide-angle (steep)" LSFD (more common on cheaper lenses)

The exit pupil can be closer to the sensor than the last non-stack element in the lens. The exit pupil can be farther away from the sensor than the last non-stack element in the lens. It all depends on the way the lens is designed.

Sony's new (pending) tele prime has an exceptionally long LSFD, so it will have a normal (good) oof psf (typical for telelenses) and lower LaCA (predictable, as it mimic longer LSFD of dSLRs)

As far as I'm concerned, any relationship between exit pupil location and LaCA is totally unproven.

I make no mention of "exit pupil"

But that is the important thing for ray angle.

we differ in terminology. so, i agree.

"It's way more than terminology. You said: " LSFD = Lens (Rear of last Optic) to Sensor Plane Focal Dimension (distance)". OK, so you don't count the sensor stack as an optic, even though it is one. So you're talking about the distance between the last piece of glass in the lens and the sensor. But that does not determine ray angles. The exit pupil location does.

no. i didn't say rear of lens is exclusively last optic before sensor plane.

here, graphic version:

LENS + (lens-span-to-sensor) + SENSOR

[1st-optic+(middle-optics)+last-optic] |<=LSFD=>| [1st-optic(stack)+sensor-plane]

That's got nothing to do with ray angles in general. You've got to know where the exit pupil is.

as long as "exit pupil" is not "body-flange-to-sensor dimension"

i'm thinking you are simply referering to the opening where light exits the rear optic of an attachable lens (which is all i am referring to)

i am uncertain if you mean "exit pupil" may be "aperture iris within the lens body"

  • (if so, then i'm not referring to that, because the RAY PATH distance from aperture iris, is way beyond both LSFD, and unrelated to body-flange-sensor dimension.)

Neither. Did you read the Wikipedia article I linked to above?

yes.

it did not change my position.

because it lacked key labeled dimensions

...

I was hoping that I didn't have to make it this complicated, but the plane I'm referring to is also know as the "rear principle plane". That plane crosses the lens axis at the "rear nodal point".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_point_(optics)

this is more useful: it has a diagram with more useful labeled dimensions ...

Jim

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■ here:

Supposing LENS BARREL is on LEFTSIDE, and SENSOR PLANE in BODY is off to the RIGHTSIDE.

■ Top Illustration:

LSFD = Starts @ V' and extends rightwards to Sensor @ S (not shown)

  • this type of lens, has a short-parallel LSFD (typically) = better (good) optics
  • not unusual for LSFD to be shorter than body-flange to sensor dimension (not shown)

■ Bottom Illustration:

LSFD = Spans V' to F', where Sensor is @ S is at F' (as shown)

  • so, LSFD = BFL (is this your "exit pupil" dimension?)
  • i'm saying:
  • longer LSFD, is longer BFL (on lower diagram) = better optical lenses; where LSFD exceeds body-flange to sensor dimensions (BFSD, not shown) especially on "mirrorless" bodies with very short BFSD:
  • 18mm for Sony (FF), and
  • 26.7mm for Fujifilm G (MF)
  • but:
  • i'm SPECIFICALLY saying: too short LSFD, is too short BFL = poor/worse problematic optical lenses, especially image must be projected on a larger wider sensor width in relation to a very short LSFD (on FF Sony FE Bodies especially)
  • in this latter case, angle of convergence "theta" is higher from lens axis, like a "fisheye" short-throw projection

Longer LSFD = shallower angled theta vs Shorter LSFD = steeper wider angled theta (wrt lens axis)

e.g. Fujinon 250mm f4 (Med.Fmt) G lens for GFX50S:

  • LSFD (BFL on lower diagram) is 57.1mm (V' to F')
  • even though GFX50S has a short 26.7mm BF-S dimension (BFSD)
  • it's optics should be excellent, because of super-long LSFD of 57.1mm (approx)
  • lens has a HUGE lens hollow-space of about 30.4mm deep in the REAR of the lens
  • this is not shown in diagrams, but the LONG front protrusion on the new 1.4x TELECONVERTER, is ~30.4mm long (not explicitly detailed in owner's manual). this protrusion readily FILLS the huge hollow-space in back of the new prime 250mm lens

i use LSFD (V' to F') = BFL, instead of BFSD, because "flange-focal-distance" (ffd) no longer work for "mirrorless" cameras with very short BFSD.

in the old SLR or new dSLR era, ffd is more common, for mirrored TTL-OVF designed cameras, where longer LSFD included space for mirror. Others may even have longer LSFD to fit more than just a moving mirror, so obviously optimal lens projection geometry dimensions being even longer was never a bad thing (it was more a good thing)

Sony basically carried over ultra-short-paralle LSFD (top diagram) from its Cybershots, over to mirrorless, but included compromised short LSFD (bottom diagram) designs, too.

in order to work around short LSFD (bottom diagram) poor optical (cheaper compact) lenses, Sony instead resorted to longer LSFD (bottom diagram) to get better optical lenses (pricier, heavier, longer)

■ why i use LSFD (V' F') instead of old ffd:

  • too many newcomers to "mirrorless" think Sony mirrorless has short ffd, and think it's great ... not really
  • reality is: i point out Sony's worse lenses have shorter LSFD (may coincide with ffd); but Sony's better lenses will have longer LSFD (unrelated to ffd). where Sony mirrorless ffd does not really exist (focal distance varies beyond the flange position, or deeper into body, closer to sensor stack)

hope that clarifies my position

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