should i work in adobeRGB?

feivel · Sep 10, 2003

seems to be the consensus....
but

i plan to get a canon 10d soon which shoots in sRGB (can also shoot in adobeRGB but i dont plan to use that feature for other reasons)

my output is to the web and sams club for prints, both of which should be in sRGB
so

since my input and output are both sRGB, does it make sense to input sRGB, convert to adobeRGB, then convert back to sRGB, or just stay in sRGB through the whole workflow?

feivel

Matt in FL · Sep 10, 2003

feivel said:
seems to be the consensus....
but
i plan to get a canon 10d soon which shoots in sRGB (can also shoot
in adobeRGB but i dont plan to use that feature for other reasons)
my output is to the web and sams club for prints, both of which
should be in sRGB
so
since my input and output are both sRGB, does it make sense to
input sRGB, convert to adobeRGB, then convert back to sRGB, or just
stay in sRGB through the whole workflow?

feivel

--from what I have read, and my observation, the conversion from adobe back to sRGB is NOT lossless, try it....with normal bit images, dont think you buy anything by converting up...if it isnt there to begin with (sRGB), it isnt there...My equipment is very happy in sRGB.....from reading your posts, I am sure you know that doing all the editing you can in 48, I know, diff subject, then when you hve to, go down to lower bits, will buy you some quality in that the image will tolerant more editing in 48 without gapping in the histogram...
MATTinFL

feivel · Sep 10, 2003

Matt in FL said:
--from what I have read, and my observation, the conversion from
adobe back to sRGB is NOT lossless, try it....with normal bit
images, dont think you buy anything by converting up...if it isnt
there to begin with (sRGB), it isnt there...My equipment is very
happy in sRGB.....from reading your posts, I am sure you know that
doing all the editing you can in 48, I know, diff subject, then
when you hve to, go down to lower bits, will buy you some quality
in that the image will tolerant more editing in 48 without gapping
in the histogram...
MATTinFL

thanks matt
im not so concerned about image degradation from converting back and forth

im concerned more about maintaining color and tonal consistency. it seems logical to me to stay in sRGB but then i really have no idea how this color management stuff works

feivel

lmichiel · Sep 10, 2003

There's no need to convert back to sRGB as you can configure Photoshop to use Adobe RGB as default. Adobe RGB is better than sRGB because the colorspace is quite a bit bigger. So there's more color information stored in Adobe RGB than in sRGB.

If you have the option, I would go for Adbobe RGB

cheers
Leo

--
Michielsens Digital Photography
Photoshop tutorials for beginners
http://www.michielsen.info

feivel · Sep 10, 2003

Leo Michielsen said:
There's no need to convert back to sRGB as you can configure

not sure i get you leo

i do have to convert back to sRGB if i were to work in adobeRGB because i want my output (prints, web) to be in sRGB.
feivel

lmichiel said:
Photoshop to use Adobe RGB as default. Adobe RGB is better than
sRGB because the colorspace is quite a bit bigger. So there's more
color information stored in Adobe RGB than in sRGB.

If you have the option, I would go for Adbobe RGB

cheers
Leo

--
Michielsens Digital Photography
Photoshop tutorials for beginners
http://www.michielsen.info

Jim L151381 · Sep 10, 2003

feivel said:
Leo Michielsen said:

There's no need to convert back to sRGB as you can configure

Click to expand...

not sure i get you leo
i do have to convert back to sRGB if i were to work in adobeRGB
because i want my output (prints, web) to be in sRGB.
feivel

feivel said:

Photoshop to use Adobe RGB as default. Adobe RGB is better than
sRGB because the colorspace is quite a bit bigger. So there's more
color information stored in Adobe RGB than in sRGB.

If you have the option, I would go for Adbobe RGB

cheers
Leo

Click to expand...

feivel said:
feivel said:

--
Michielsens Digital Photography
Photoshop tutorials for beginners
http://www.michielsen.info

Click to expand...

Feivel,

I'm glad that you've asked this question. In their books, both Deke McClelland and Scott Kelby reccomend only using Adobe RGB, so I set my PS preference to automatically convert my S45 images. I either print them at Sam's club or burn then onto a VCD, and my untrained eye sees no difference. As a knew PS user I'd also like to know if the conversion it really the right thing to do and why. Thanks!

Jim

feivel · Sep 10, 2003

Jim L said:
I'm glad that you've asked this question. In their books, both Deke
McClelland and Scott Kelby reccomend only using Adobe RGB, so I set
my PS preference to automatically convert my S45 images. I either
print them at Sam's club or burn then onto a VCD, and my untrained
eye sees no difference. As a knew PS user I'd also like to know if
the conversion it really the right thing to do and why. Thanks!

Jim

still not sure what to do.
but as to your last point

i did some photos in adobeRGB, converted one of each to sRGB and left the other of each pair as is, in adobeRGB
the ones in sRGB were truer to how they looked on my monitor.

feivel

GCam · Sep 10, 2003

feivel said:
the ones in sRGB were truer to how they looked on my monitor.

feivel: I will have to look for it, but in one of my books on PS, it says to leave in sRGB and work that way if you are going to publish on the web. Also said the colors would be truer to the monitor colors, so maybe you are on the right track. Thinking of going with the 10D myself, but the focus problems still trouble me. A lot of traffic over on the 10D forum regarding same. What are your feelings? GC

feivel · Sep 10, 2003

GCam said:
GCam said:

the ones in sRGB were truer to how they looked on my monitor.

Click to expand...

feivel: I will have to look for it, but in one of my books on PS,
it says to leave in sRGB and work that way if you are going to
publish on the web. Also said the colors would be truer to the
monitor colors, so maybe you are on the right track. Thinking of
going with the 10D myself, but the focus problems still trouble me.
A lot of traffic over on the 10D forum regarding same. What are
your feelings? GC

ive been following it too
i think it's mostly bogus, mob hysteria

the 10D has an antialiasing filter in front of the sensor which subtly softens the image

i think people with a sharp eye noticed this, saw that it was consistent in all their photos and began focus tests. the tests, although mostly probably within tolerance, were disturbing to their compulsive nature, as they were not 100% perfect.

probably there are some cams also that really are out of tolerance, as i imagine any brand any model of a highly precisely calibrated instrument would occassionally be..

in any case this is obviously all conjecture on my part, but im not concerned (well, a little, but this is outweighed by my 10D fever)

feivel

tomseek · Sep 10, 2003

Only speculating so my answer may not be useful to you. I think if both your input and output are sRGB, work with sRGB in PS. AdobeRGB is a wider color space so it's always preferable. If your camera has adobeRGB color space option, you should use this mode so that you can capture a wider range to start with. Then, you should work and save in adobeRGB in PS. Convert to sRGB only for output.

Tom...

feivel said:
seems to be the consensus....
but
i plan to get a canon 10d soon which shoots in sRGB (can also shoot
in adobeRGB but i dont plan to use that feature for other reasons)
my output is to the web and sams club for prints, both of which
should be in sRGB
so
since my input and output are both sRGB, does it make sense to
input sRGB, convert to adobeRGB, then convert back to sRGB, or just
stay in sRGB through the whole workflow?

feivel

Ed Rotberg · Sep 10, 2003

feivel,

I just got a 10D and have been starting to go through about 600+ photos that I shot on a recent trip to Ireland/Scotland. I've been dealing with the who color management problem, and here is what I have discovered:

Yes, Adobe RGB is the widest color space and you should definitely work in that. However, as far as shooting goes, you REALLY want to shoot in RAW whenever possible. Then, depending on what app you use to do the conversion from RAW to TIFF or JPEG, you can have the image converted from you 12-bit per channel color to the Adobe RGB color space. You can also set the 10D to save JPEGs in Adobe RGB instead of sRGB if you can't afford to shoot RAW for some reason. As an aside, I strongly reccommend shooting in RAW whenever possible for a variety of reasons. I also strongly reccommend buying Capture One DSLR LE ($99) to manage your RAW conversions as Canon's software leaves a lot to be desired.

Once you have your working source image (either TIFF or JPEG) in Adobe RGB, you should only work with a copy of that image. That way, you maintain the image in its widest gammut format (Adobe RGB).

However, when you plan to publish an image for the web, you will want to Image-> Mode-> Convert to Profile... and choose sRGB as a last step prior to saving.

If you decide to print an image, go back to the Adobe RGB version and start with that, converting to the color profile for your printer (or let the printing software, such as QImage, handle that for you). You will still have the "source" image in Adobe RGB which maintains the maximum data (aside from the original RAW file that is).

One thing to be sure of is that you calibrate your monitor's gamma. This had me in a tizzy for a while until I figured out that was why images looded different in PS than they did in Exporer or in Irfanview. Once I calibrated my monitor and then converted to my monitor's color space (as a test), it looked nearly identical in Explorer to way way the Adobe RGB version did in PS7. If I converted to sRGB, there was a slight difference, which is to be expected, but that is what you want to use for publishing to the web.

I hope this helps.

= Ed =

--
= Ed Rotberg =

'A waist is a terrible thing to mind'

feivel · Sep 10, 2003

thanks ed
i followed that thread and your revelation at the end,

i have been working with raw and breezebrowser for some time now and im tired of it, just not worth the extra hassle for me

the only tangible advantage for me is if i mess up white balance settings, so ill have to be more careful

i might want to up the sharpening in-camera parameter in the 10D and that is disabled if you shoot in adobe

feivel

Ed Rotberg said:
feivel,

I just got a 10D and have been starting to go through about 600+
photos that I shot on a recent trip to Ireland/Scotland. I've been
dealing with the who color management problem, and here is what I
have discovered:

Yes, Adobe RGB is the widest color space and you should definitely
work in that. However, as far as shooting goes, you REALLY want to
shoot in RAW whenever possible. Then, depending on what app you
use to do the conversion from RAW to TIFF or JPEG, you can have the
image converted from you 12-bit per channel color to the Adobe RGB
color space. You can also set the 10D to save JPEGs in Adobe RGB
instead of sRGB if you can't afford to shoot RAW for some reason.
As an aside, I strongly reccommend shooting in RAW whenever
possible for a variety of reasons. I also strongly reccommend
buying Capture One DSLR LE ($99) to manage your RAW conversions as
Canon's software leaves a lot to be desired.

Once you have your working source image (either TIFF or JPEG) in
Adobe RGB, you should only work with a copy of that image. That
way, you maintain the image in its widest gammut format (Adobe RGB).

However, when you plan to publish an image for the web, you will
want to Image-> Mode-> Convert to Profile... and choose sRGB as a
last step prior to saving.

If you decide to print an image, go back to the Adobe RGB version
and start with that, converting to the color profile for your
printer (or let the printing software, such as QImage, handle that
for you). You will still have the "source" image in Adobe RGB
which maintains the maximum data (aside from the original RAW file
that is).

One thing to be sure of is that you calibrate your monitor's gamma.
This had me in a tizzy for a while until I figured out that was why
images looded different in PS than they did in Exporer or in
Irfanview. Once I calibrated my monitor and then converted to my
monitor's color space (as a test), it looked nearly identical in
Explorer to way way the Adobe RGB version did in PS7. If I
converted to sRGB, there was a slight difference, which is to be
expected, but that is what you want to use for publishing to the
web.

I hope this helps.

= Ed =

--
= Ed Rotberg =

'A waist is a terrible thing to mind'

jeanette... · Sep 10, 2003

Feivel,

I like to change my shooting parameters, so I shoot in either P1, 2 or 3. When I'm working in Photoshop I ALWAYS use AdobeRGB 1998. Especially is your planning on printing always use AdobeRGB 1998. I never covert back to sRGB. It might look truer on the screen, but remember you're looking at a screen. I have set my 10D to shoot in AdobeRGB, but I like having more control over contrast, sharp etc. So I set my camera to one of the Parameters I have set.

So in the end, start shooting with your Parameter settings either 1, 2, or 3. Have Photoshop default to convert everything to AdobeRGB 1998. I do this no matter if the image is going to be printed or used on the web. The sRGB is for images used on the web. I'm not doing any web pages right now so I don't care.

jeanette...
--
'Communication is the cornerstone to understanding.'
Jeanette Butler
http://www.communityzero.com/pug
http://www.pbase.com/maxie6

Thomas Niemann · Sep 10, 2003

Some folks like choosing 150dpi to print, rather than 300. Or like always doing it in raw. Or like always shooting TIFFs. So...

Try both, and see if there's any difference.

Opinion:

I shoot JPEGs (not raw or TIFF) and sRGB. I publish on the web (sRGB), and get prints from EzPrints. They look just fine.

The only advantage to using aRGB is the fact that it's a wider gamut, so adjustments that you do, with levels, curves, saturation, and so forth, won't get truncated. However, this only happens if the adjustments are severe, so you'll probably never notice.

On the other hand, if you're targeting the press, where CMYK is the rule, you'll definitely want to use aRGB. CMYK and sRGB cover different ground, so if your working space is sRGB, and you convert to CMYK, you'll see the loss. If your working space is aRGB, which is effectively a superset of sRGB and CMYK, then you can convert to either CMYK or sRGB without loss.

If you're not targeting the press, sRGB and JPEGs are simpler.

--
Thomas Niemann
http://epaperpress.com

Ed Rotberg · Sep 10, 2003

But there is more to it than white balance. If you over expose or underexpose you can rescue up to 2.5 stops either way. A case in point: I recently posted a picture taken at St. Gile Cathedral in Edinburgh. Taken straight with no compensation, there was a bright area of the floor that was blown out. With Capture One, I was able to take the original RAW image, use a -0.4 EV, and rescue that area. I then used Curves within C1 to adjust my dynamic range - using all 36 bits of the RAW data instead of just the 24 you'd have in PS with a JPEG file. I had a whole lot more control.

It really is more than just deciding your white balance after the fact, although that is nice as well. You can also set your saturation (which can also be done in PS but with less control and precision).

I also think it would be worth your while to download the trial version of C1. I personally found it much more intuitive - and considerably faster than BreezeBrowser. In C1, your changes can be preview nearly instantaneously.

= Ed =

feivel said:
feivel

Ed Rotberg said:

feivel,

I just got a 10D and have been starting to go through about 600+
photos that I shot on a recent trip to Ireland/Scotland. I've been
dealing with the who color management problem, and here is what I
have discovered:

Yes, Adobe RGB is the widest color space and you should definitely
work in that. However, as far as shooting goes, you REALLY want to
shoot in RAW whenever possible. Then, depending on what app you
use to do the conversion from RAW to TIFF or JPEG, you can have the
image converted from you 12-bit per channel color to the Adobe RGB
color space. You can also set the 10D to save JPEGs in Adobe RGB
instead of sRGB if you can't afford to shoot RAW for some reason.
As an aside, I strongly reccommend shooting in RAW whenever
possible for a variety of reasons. I also strongly reccommend
buying Capture One DSLR LE ($99) to manage your RAW conversions as
Canon's software leaves a lot to be desired.

Once you have your working source image (either TIFF or JPEG) in
Adobe RGB, you should only work with a copy of that image. That
way, you maintain the image in its widest gammut format (Adobe RGB).

However, when you plan to publish an image for the web, you will
want to Image-> Mode-> Convert to Profile... and choose sRGB as a
last step prior to saving.

If you decide to print an image, go back to the Adobe RGB version
and start with that, converting to the color profile for your
printer (or let the printing software, such as QImage, handle that
for you). You will still have the "source" image in Adobe RGB
which maintains the maximum data (aside from the original RAW file
that is).

One thing to be sure of is that you calibrate your monitor's gamma.
This had me in a tizzy for a while until I figured out that was why
images looded different in PS than they did in Exporer or in
Irfanview. Once I calibrated my monitor and then converted to my
monitor's color space (as a test), it looked nearly identical in
Explorer to way way the Adobe RGB version did in PS7. If I
converted to sRGB, there was a slight difference, which is to be
expected, but that is what you want to use for publishing to the
web.

I hope this helps.

= Ed =

--
= Ed Rotberg =

'A waist is a terrible thing to mind'

Click to expand...

--
= Ed Rotberg =

'A waist is a terrible thing to mind'

feivel · Sep 11, 2003

jeanette... said:
Feivel,
I like to change my shooting parameters, so I shoot in either P1, 2
or 3. When I'm working in Photoshop I ALWAYS use AdobeRGB 1998.
Especially is your planning on printing always use AdobeRGB 1998.
I never covert back to sRGB. It might look truer on the screen,
but remember you're looking at a screen. I have set my 10D to
shoot in AdobeRGB, but I like having more control over contrast,
sharp etc. So I set my camera to one of the Parameters I have set.

So in the end, start shooting with your Parameter settings either
1, 2, or 3. Have Photoshop default to convert everything to
AdobeRGB 1998. I do this no matter if the image is going to be
printed or used on the web. The sRGB is for images used on the
web. I'm not doing any web pages right now so I don't care.

jeanette...
--
'Communication is the cornerstone to understanding.'
Jeanette Butler
http://www.communityzero.com/pug
http://www.pbase.com/maxie6

thanks jeanette, i did some comparative tests and found that if i converted my photos to sRGB before printing at sams club the color was more like how it looked in ps than if i didnt

im not sure i understand how you have your10D set up

you have it set to adobe AND you set the contrast, saturation, and sharpening parameters to non-default states??

i thought if you chose adobe colorspace the parameters were unavailable for change

feivel

feivel · Sep 11, 2003

Thomas Niemann said:
Some folks like choosing 150dpi to print, rather than 300. Or like
always doing it in raw. Or like always shooting TIFFs. So...

Try both, and see if there's any difference.

Opinion:

I shoot JPEGs (not raw or TIFF) and sRGB. I publish on the web
(sRGB), and get prints from EzPrints. They look just fine.

The only advantage to using aRGB is the fact that it's a wider
gamut, so adjustments that you do, with levels, curves, saturation,
and so forth, won't get truncated. However, this only happens if
the adjustments are severe, so you'll probably never notice.

On the other hand, if you're targeting the press, where CMYK is the
rule, you'll definitely want to use aRGB. CMYK and sRGB cover
different ground, so if your working space is sRGB, and you convert
to CMYK, you'll see the loss. If your working space is aRGB, which
is effectively a superset of sRGB and CMYK, then you can convert to
either CMYK or sRGB without loss.

If you're not targeting the press, sRGB and JPEGs are simpler.

--
Thomas Niemann
http://epaperpress.com

feivel · Sep 11, 2003

Ed Rotberg said:
It really is more than just deciding your white balance after the
fact, although that is nice as well. You can also set your
saturation (which can also be done in PS but with less control and
precision).

I also think it would be worth your while to download the trial
version of C1. I personally found it much more intuitive - and
considerably faster than BreezeBrowser. In C1, your changes can be
preview nearly instantaneously.

= Ed =

feivel said:

feivel

Ed Rotberg said:

feivel,

I just got a 10D and have been starting to go through about 600+
photos that I shot on a recent trip to Ireland/Scotland. I've been
dealing with the who color management problem, and here is what I
have discovered:

Yes, Adobe RGB is the widest color space and you should definitely
work in that. However, as far as shooting goes, you REALLY want to
shoot in RAW whenever possible. Then, depending on what app you
use to do the conversion from RAW to TIFF or JPEG, you can have the
image converted from you 12-bit per channel color to the Adobe RGB
color space. You can also set the 10D to save JPEGs in Adobe RGB
instead of sRGB if you can't afford to shoot RAW for some reason.
As an aside, I strongly reccommend shooting in RAW whenever
possible for a variety of reasons. I also strongly reccommend
buying Capture One DSLR LE ($99) to manage your RAW conversions as
Canon's software leaves a lot to be desired.

Once you have your working source image (either TIFF or JPEG) in
Adobe RGB, you should only work with a copy of that image. That
way, you maintain the image in its widest gammut format (Adobe RGB).

However, when you plan to publish an image for the web, you will
want to Image-> Mode-> Convert to Profile... and choose sRGB as a
last step prior to saving.

If you decide to print an image, go back to the Adobe RGB version
and start with that, converting to the color profile for your
printer (or let the printing software, such as QImage, handle that
for you). You will still have the "source" image in Adobe RGB
which maintains the maximum data (aside from the original RAW file
that is).

One thing to be sure of is that you calibrate your monitor's gamma.
This had me in a tizzy for a while until I figured out that was why
images looded different in PS than they did in Exporer or in
Irfanview. Once I calibrated my monitor and then converted to my
monitor's color space (as a test), it looked nearly identical in
Explorer to way way the Adobe RGB version did in PS7. If I
converted to sRGB, there was a slight difference, which is to be
expected, but that is what you want to use for publishing to the
web.

I hope this helps.

= Ed =

--
= Ed Rotberg =

'A waist is a terrible thing to mind'

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
= Ed Rotberg =

'A waist is a terrible thing to mind'

thanks ed but i dont think you realize how powerful laziness can be.

but i think ill go back to raw when i get a faster computer (700mHZ pentium II right now)

feivel

SVJIM · Sep 11, 2003

Fievel,

Your understanding is correct. The parameter settings 1,2,3 only work with sRGB. It is one of the disadvantages of using AdobeRGB on the 10D. I've pretty much taken to shooting RAW and normally process the RAW image as AdobeRGB primarily because I do a lot of printing. I always convert my AdobeRGB image to sRGB for web display.

If you shoot raw, you can have your cake and eat it too, but at the price of storage space. In your instance you could shoot RAW+jpeg and choose sRGB as your color space and you would have all the parameter settings available to you. The embedded jpeg in the RAW file will be in sRGB and use the parameters you chose. If for some other reason you want an AdobeRGB version of an image, just post process the RAW file in your favorite RAW processor and generate a AdobeRGB image.

Jim

feivel said:
jeanette... said:

Feivel,
I like to change my shooting parameters, so I shoot in either P1, 2
or 3. When I'm working in Photoshop I ALWAYS use AdobeRGB 1998.
Especially is your planning on printing always use AdobeRGB 1998.
I never covert back to sRGB. It might look truer on the screen,
but remember you're looking at a screen. I have set my 10D to
shoot in AdobeRGB, but I like having more control over contrast,
sharp etc. So I set my camera to one of the Parameters I have set.

So in the end, start shooting with your Parameter settings either
1, 2, or 3. Have Photoshop default to convert everything to
AdobeRGB 1998. I do this no matter if the image is going to be
printed or used on the web. The sRGB is for images used on the
web. I'm not doing any web pages right now so I don't care.

jeanette...
--
'Communication is the cornerstone to understanding.'
Jeanette Butler
http://www.communityzero.com/pug
http://www.pbase.com/maxie6

Click to expand...

thanks jeanette, i did some comparative tests and found that if i
converted my photos to sRGB before printing at sams club the color
was more like how it looked in ps than if i didnt

im not sure i understand how you have your10D set up
you have it set to adobe AND you set the contrast, saturation, and
sharpening parameters to non-default states??
i thought if you chose adobe colorspace the parameters were
unavailable for change

feivel

--
Photography should be fun

http://www.pbase.com/jcollins

jeanette... · Sep 11, 2003

In camera you choose AdobeRGB OR Parameters 1, 2 or 3 which can be adjusted. I use one of the Parameters that I set. The AdobeRGB setting in camera cannot be adjusted.

As far as printing your photos, whatever works for you. We all have our own ways of doing things. You asked for suggestions, and we gave suggestions. In the end, it's up to you. When you get your 10D you'll find it a lot more adjustable than you think. Be sure to read the manual thoroughly.

jeanette...

--
'Communication is the cornerstone to understanding.'
Jeanette Butler
http://www.communityzero.com/pug
http://www.pbase.com/maxie6

should i work in adobeRGB?

Forum Pro

Matt in FL

Guest

Forum Pro

Well-known member

Forum Pro

Active member

Forum Pro

Veteran Member

Forum Pro

Active member

Senior Member

Forum Pro

Leading Member

Veteran Member

Senior Member

Forum Pro

Forum Pro

Forum Pro

Senior Member

Leading Member

Similar threads

Keyboard shortcuts