Give me a full frame trichromatic sensor already!

The video made it sound like the CFA would see further along the spectrum... haven't we been here before with the problems with the early Nikon pro DSLRs? Some quoted the sensitivity to IR as a 'feature', but more usually it was cited as an annoyance putting colors out of whack.
 
If, say, Canon came out with a 5DsT (T for trichromatic) with great color, but the sensor is so spendy that they want $9000 US, would you buy it? How many would buy it? How many buy $49,000 Phase One cameras?
Great point, I think the answer is no, I wouldn't spend $9,000 and certainly not $49,000. But that perhaps is why I'm suggesting we need a full frame version... denser, trichromatic CFA's cost nothing more to make.
Oh, yes they do, simply because reducing high-ISO performance would result in far fewer sales thus increasing the cost of development per unit. I know that the only real reason I bought a full-frame camera was for better high ISO performance. Had it lacked that to benefit color accuracy, I wouldn't have bothered since I place a high value on low-light performance and a low value on color accuracy.
 
If, say, Canon came out with a 5DsT (T for trichromatic) with great color, but the sensor is so spendy that they want $9000 US, would you buy it? How many would buy it? How many buy $49,000 Phase One cameras?
Great point, I think the answer is no, I wouldn't spend $9,000 and certainly not $49,000. But that perhaps is why I'm suggesting we need a full frame version... denser, trichromatic CFA's cost nothing more to make.
Oh, yes they do, simply because reducing high-ISO performance would result in far fewer sales thus increasing the cost of development per unit. I know that the only real reason I bought a full-frame camera was for better high ISO performance. Had it lacked that to benefit color accuracy, I wouldn't have bothered since I place a high value on low-light performance and a low value on color accuracy.
The usual mistaken DPR forum assumption strikes again:- what goes for me should go for everybody. Please - give us a break from these definitive statements everybody!

Yeah, I had to upgrade to FF more for noise porformance than tonality because I simply couldn't compete on high iso images with crop sensors. But sensor performance in this respect slowed down. Even dilettantes willing to enter the used market can pick up cameras not far from the cutting edge in high iso for $1000 or less.

While testing out lots of cameras I did indeed notice that more of the modern cameras tended to cheat us out of some color performance to achieve neat high isos.

Now these high iso monsters are that bit more accessible if we need them, I reckon most of us could now afford to get something that does a little less well in high iso to get back the colors we missed from the previous decade if we wanted. So what if I lose iso 6400... I never photographed a landscape at iso 6400 anyway.

Even if the camera does a whole iso stop worse WRT noise, I'm not too worried because I think it's nicer to have every single iso you can use in attractive color than one extra iso with color that never entirely satisfies.
 
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In a fascinating video interview with Lau Norgaard, VP of R&D at Phase One, several contentious forum topics were simultaneously settled at the OEM level. I've marked these at their various time stamps:
Lots of good stuff there but also a fair amount of chaff and marketing hand waving.
True, Kevin Raber (the interviewer) does wave his hands a lot. ;-)
Based on my limited playing around with a similar file from both Backs I would say that an oversimplified way to understand the difference in color produced between the two CFAs is to metaphorically consider the difference between Adobe and ProPhoto RGB: Adobe RGB with its denser space is represented by the Trichromatic while ProPhoto by the Standard Back. For the reasoning behind that metaphor you can refer to the articles linked to by an earlier post.
Thanks for writing up your analysis, Jack. It was an interesting read with nice links to additional material on color. I'll respond below to the limited conclusions you reached.

Personally, I don't think your Adobe RGB vs. ProPhoto RGB metaphor fits well for describing the difference between a trichromatic and standard sensor. A better metaphor would be polarized versus un-polarized sunglasses. The polarization cuts through haze allowing the wearer to see more pure detail much like a denser trichromatic sensor reveals purer colors uncontaminated by the color haze of a weak CFA.
I've debated all of these points on DPR over the last several years citing industry references, CFA spectrograms, and image examples. You will see many of these same points raised in my posts on the problem with weakened CFA's, CCD vs. CMOS, and the generally poorer color accuracy (SMI) of modern cameras.
Except that the CFA changes implemented in the Trichromatic appear to directly contradict those conclusions: in my limited investigation, the Trichromatic's CFA may be 'denser' or 'purer' but the Standard Back's linear color is distinctly more 'accurate' out of the box. Compromises, compromises...
I would be hesitant to draw any firm conclusions given the limitations of what we had to work with. Let's face it, there was only a third party's test scene that just happened to have had a color checker dropped into it. Along with that came the imperfect "lighting, different ISO and exposure, position of cc24 (probably resulting in contamination of some of the patches by reflectance from items in the scene), absence of direct spectral measurements, etc." which you cited.

Further complicating things, you built a custom profile from this very uncontrolled test scene with only a color checker and without the sort of profile tweaks that Phase One would have surely added to their camera profile. Lau Norgaard specifically mentions in the video that Phase One consider color checkers a starting point for camera profiling, not an endpoint.
If their marketing material is to be believed some have the feeling that some of the changes they brought were actually corrections to mistakes made with color setup in the Standard Back (e.g. was its hot mirror too 'weak', as has been reported?). On other tweaks though I think they moved in the direction of optimizing color for a specific application, trying to answer questions like this: what changes would we make if this camera were always/predominantly used outdoors, indoor performance be darned? The opposite question could be asked as well and different compromises would be reached. Then there is the much larger target market that wants their camera to be setup so that it works well both indoor and outdoors...
Perhaps it coincidentally resolved a weak hot mirror issue for them. But the core benefits of pure color still remain. These presumably include clearer hue separation of browns from reds, purer blue skies, and more naturally vibrant saturated colors when they are photographed alongside weak colors.

I do see Mark Scott Abeln's point about the potential downside of a more sensitive red channel when it comes to indoor lighting, but let's see how Phase One handle this when they release some indoor photos. In general they are touting better noise performance in their trichromatic sensor which may by itself resolve Mark's concerns.
So once the compromises are understood I am not sure the average photographer would want a specialized 'sensor' set up like in the Trichromatic for their full frame camera.
IMHO it's ok to be unsure. Drawing firm conclusions from compromised test data is another matter.

fPrime
 
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Except that the CFA changes implemented in the Trichromatic appear to directly contradict those conclusions: in my limited investigation, the Trichromatic's CFA may be 'denser' or 'purer' but the Standard Back's linear color is distinctly more 'accurate' out of the box. Compromises, compromises...
One may want to go past matrix transforms and analyze profiles for Phase One backs supplied with Capture One.

Argyll offers inverse transforms https://argyllcms.com/doc/xicclu.html

This allows to feed Lab values into a profile (a range of those, like a cloud in Granger rainbow or some natural/artificial palette) and estimate the cloud of corresponding device RGB values that can cause those Lab.

If one uses the full Lab volume as input, all missing device RGB values are metamers.
 
I never photographed a landscape at iso 6400 anyway.
I've never photographed a landscape at any ISO.
I find this statement cryptic. When I photograph landscapes, I set my exposure to get a full tonal range at my camera's base ISO. I suspect that you also do this. Can you amplify your statement?
 
Lots of talk and hand waving. No facts, no A/B comparison, no testing. But what you do expect . . . its a video. The nice thing for them if, it's harder to refute, discuss, and analyze a video, but it makes great propaganda for their own products.

I mean, we have gems like "16:00 - The denser the CFA is, the lower base ISO it can achieve (e.g. ISO 35)."

Duh. That's like saying, put a ND filter over the sensor and you have lower base ISO. No, you've just filtered more of the light, and that doesn't help image quality at all.

Its like listening to two Mercedes engineers tell you why their cars are so great.
 
If, say, Canon came out with a 5DsT (T for trichromatic) with great color, but the sensor is so spendy that they want $9000 US, would you buy it? How many would buy it? How many buy $49,000 Phase One cameras?
Great point, I think the answer is no, I wouldn't spend $9,000 and certainly not $49,000. But that perhaps is why I'm suggesting we need a full frame version... denser, trichromatic CFA's cost nothing more to make.
Oh, yes they do, simply because reducing high-ISO performance would result in far fewer sales thus increasing the cost of development per unit. I know that the only real reason I bought a full-frame camera was for better high ISO performance.
You are making a huge assumption here... that a trichromatic CFA incurs a significant noise penalty. It probably doesn't. Phase One actually suggest they made their red channel more sensitive. The blue and green CFA channels may simply be slightly more wavelength selective.

But even if a trichromatic sensor significantly penalized high ISO performance, a lot of studio and landscape photographers probably wouldn’t mind. Tool to task. Look at my own camera collection. I use a D700 for high ISO work and CCD cameras for base ISO work. In a contracting market like hifi audio was, and DSLRs are now, what saved manufacturers was specializing in applied areas.
Had it lacked that to benefit color accuracy, I wouldn't have bothered since I place a high value on low-light performance and a low value on color accuracy.
That may we’ll be what you value, but not what I and many others value.

fPrime
 
... typically look at photos made with contemporary cameras and think, "those colors are terrible!"
No one suggested that the color from modern cameras is terrible... it’s actually pretty good considering the fact that they’ve been heavily compromised to shoot at high ISO. What you are missing when you look at modern digital photos, however, is the same scene shot with a trichromatic or CCD comparator. Then you’d see what you are missing.
Mostly I think that the color rendition with today's tech is very good. I don't really believe that photography as a whole will improve when sensors evolve to a point where the color accuracy is a bit more like what the human eye perceives. Funny how so many folks get excited about the colors of different film stocks (enough to where there are presets to imitate these things with software) and those colors tend to be less realistic than what current digital can do.

Sharpness, dynamic range and a reasonable level of color fidelity are nice to have, I think, but perfect realism is never going to be a prerequisite for great photography... If I want what looks perfectly real, I'll just check it out with my own eyes, not by looking at a photo...
A lot of product, art reproduction, fine art, portrait, and landscape photographers demand color fidelity as well, and for good reason.

fPrime
 
... typically look at photos made with contemporary cameras and think, "those colors are terrible!"
No one suggested that the color from modern cameras is terrible... it’s actually pretty good considering the fact that they’ve been heavily compromised to shoot at high ISO.
You have independent verifiable data to confirm it? Or is it an attempt to fill a hole with big words?
A lot of product, art reproduction, fine art, portrait, and landscape photographers demand color fidelity as well, and for good reason.
Product or art reproduction with colours within a colour space that is smaller than Adobe RGB?

b5439a46d7ba4bc38b00046b4521ce57.jpg.png


Please do not forget to define "fidelity" in any quantifiable manner.

--
 
Some of those statements are oversimplifications. Oun the other hand, there is a religious belief here that with profiling and sliders, all sensors give the same color, which is wrong.
True, the people on the software side of photography in particular argue that profiling resolves all color differences between cameras. What’s hilarious is that despite advocating this they still choose their own camera bodies based on the strength of their CFA’s.
Also, color is too much photography related to be of interest to most of our forum members. Not like DR.
Or sharpness, or chromatic aberration, or any other metric that can be objectively measured by the gear sniffers on DPR.

fPrime
 
If, say, Canon came out with a 5DsT (T for trichromatic) with great color, but the sensor is so spendy that they want $9000 US, would you buy it? How many would buy it? How many buy $49,000 Phase One cameras?
Great point, I think the answer is no, I wouldn't spend $9,000 and certainly not $49,000. But that perhaps is why I'm suggesting we need a full frame version... denser, trichromatic CFA's cost nothing more to make.
Oh, yes they do, simply because reducing high-ISO performance would result in far fewer sales thus increasing the cost of development per unit. I know that the only real reason I bought a full-frame camera was for better high ISO performance.
You are making a huge assumption here... that a trichromatic CFA incurs a significant noise penalty. It probably doesn't.
I was just going with what you said about it, that that is why we have broad-band Bayer dyes.
Phase One actually suggest they made their red channel more sensitive. The blue and green CFA channels may simply be slightly more wavelength selective.

But even if a trichromatic sensor significantly penalized high ISO performance, a lot of studio and landscape photographers probably wouldn’t mind. Tool to task.
Sure, I'm just saying you might sell less of them overall because a lot of people buy large-sensor cameras specifically because of light gathering.
Look at my own camera collection. I use a D700 for high ISO work
Ick. I've processed many D700 images and they are not good noise-wise.
and CCD cameras for base ISO work.
Which makes little sense. CCDs and CMOS have exactly the same sensor elements. The difference is in the way the sensors are read-out, not in light gathering or any other way having to do with image quality (except for CCD's blooming problem).
 
I believe there is still a market for great color fidelity at every sensor size. Certainly we need good color at every resolution. At this point it's more questionable whether we actually need more resolution, IMHO.
Though I think the need for absolute colour fidelity is over-stated for most final applications, it would be nice to make those choices oneself. And reduced noise in the initial image is always welcome.
 
I never photographed a landscape at iso 6400 anyway.
I've never photographed a landscape at any ISO.
I find this statement cryptic. When I photograph landscapes, I set my exposure to get a full tonal range at my camera's base ISO. I suspect that you also do this. Can you amplify your statement?
I've never photographed a landscape.
That makes your statement considerably less cryptic to me. Thank you.
 
... typically look at photos made with contemporary cameras and think, "those colors are terrible!"
No one suggested that the color from modern cameras is terrible... it’s actually pretty good considering the fact that they’ve been heavily compromised to shoot at high ISO.
You have independent verifiable data to confirm it? Or is it an attempt to fill a hole with big words?
It’s rather disingenuous to ask as you already know the answer. DxOMarks sensor database maps the decline in SMI color accuracy quite convincingly as CCD was replaced by CMOS.
A lot of product, art reproduction, fine art, portrait, and landscape photographers demand color fidelity as well, and for good reason.
Product or art reproduction with colours within a colour space that is smaller than Adobe RGB?
Phase One created this profile specifically to achieve even higher color definition within the narrower DR confines of art reproduction where the endpoints of a larger gamut would be wasted. Had you watched the video by Niels you’d have understood this.
Please do not forget to define "fidelity" in any quantifiable manner.
Digital colors that match the colors human see in real life under identical illumination.

fPrime
 
Some of those statements are oversimplifications. Oun the other hand, there is a religious belief here that with profiling and sliders, all sensors give the same color, which is wrong.
True, the people on the software side of photography in particular argue that profiling resolves all color differences between cameras. What’s hilarious is that despite advocating this they still choose their own camera bodies based on the strength of their CFA’s.
What's hilarious (or infuriating) is that even after profiling, there are color differences between cameras that are obvious when you compare images.
 

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