Inkjet printer and sparse/occasional use?

Krilbe said:

Hi,

I've had some older Canon printers, e.g. MP980, and had problems with large amounts of ink being wasted on deep cleaning. The problem stems from the fact that I do ink prints rather sparsely, perhaps a few times a year. (But when I do them, I really want the quality that inkjets can provide as opposed to lasers).

So, when I finally switch on the printer after a long period, it ALWAYS performs a deep cleaning. In effect, I suffer a deep cleaning once per "print project". I estimate that with the MP980 I had at least one ink tank run out every other print. Not acceptable, of course. I do understand that deep cleaning might be necessary after such a long time, and why, but...

My question is: How do you recommand I handle an inkjet printer and its ink tanks in this usage scenario?

I'm primarily interested in buying a Canon PIXMA PRO-10S or something similar.

Some ideas that I come up with, please expand/add/comment:

1. Do a dummy print once a week just to keep the printer in good condition and the nozzles clog free. Will this avoid deep cleaning? How do I keep up that habit? Ugh...
2. Switch off automatic deep cleaning. When switching on after a few months, do a nozzle check print. Perform manual deep cleaning if necessary. How likely is it that a deep cleaning can be skipped, i.e. will it actually save me from deep cleaning or will it be necessary anyway? Which printers do allow me to switch off automatic deep cleaning?
3. Remove ink tanks between uses and store them in a sealed air tight container. Will this even help? I assume it's the print nozzles that dry up/clog, and not the ink tanks...

Does anyone know how much ink (how many ml) a deep cleaning actually consumes?
As an aside: anyone know if ther are any new models coming up from Canon? The PIXMA PRO-10S is a few years old, isn't it?

Click to expand...

Hi Krilbe!

The PRO-10 performs different types of cleaning cycles depending on how long you didn't print (I don't recall the actual number of hours) but once a week is probably not often enough. If I remember correctly you should print something at least every 72h. So yes - for question 1 - simply do an automated nozzle check every 70 hours and deep cleaning can be avoided. Don't power off the printer as this will always cause a cleaning cycle - if you unplug the power cable it will perform the most inks-wasting cleaning cycle - so don't do that

@Question 2: You can't prevent cleaning cycles once you waited too long to print something. There is no such setting.

@Question3: This wont help you in any way - it's the print head that needs to be cleaned and not the cartridge. Removing and reinstalling cartridges also causes a cleaning cycle, so it will actually make things worst

Krilbe said:

Hi,

I've had some older Canon printers, e.g. MP980, and had problems with large amounts of ink being wasted on deep cleaning. The problem stems from the fact that I do ink prints rather sparsely, perhaps a few times a year. (But when I do them, I really want the quality that inkjets can provide as opposed to lasers).

So, when I finally switch on the printer after a long period, it ALWAYS performs a deep cleaning. In effect, I suffer a deep cleaning once per "print project". I estimate that with the MP980 I had at least one ink tank run out every other print. Not acceptable, of course. I do understand that deep cleaning might be necessary after such a long time, and why, but...

My question is: How do you recommand I handle an inkjet printer and its ink tanks in this usage scenario?

I'm primarily interested in buying a Canon PIXMA PRO-10S or something similar.

Some ideas that I come up with, please expand/add/comment:

1. Do a dummy print once a week just to keep the printer in good condition and the nozzles clog free. Will this avoid deep cleaning? How do I keep up that habit? Ugh...
2. Switch off automatic deep cleaning. When switching on after a few months, do a nozzle check print. Perform manual deep cleaning if necessary. How likely is it that a deep cleaning can be skipped, i.e. will it actually save me from deep cleaning or will it be necessary anyway? Which printers do allow me to switch off automatic deep cleaning?
3. Remove ink tanks between uses and store them in a sealed air tight container. Will this even help? I assume it's the print nozzles that dry up/clog, and not the ink tanks...

Does anyone know how much ink (how many ml) a deep cleaning actually consumes?
As an aside: anyone know if ther are any new models coming up from Canon? The PIXMA PRO-10S is a few years old, isn't it?

Click to expand...

Is there a reason you want the Pro-10 vs. the Pro-100? The Pro-100 prints as good if not better prints than the Pro-10 it comes down to pigment vs. dye. You can go much longer between prints on the Pro-100 since dye printheads don't clog up as much...

The ink isn't being wasted. That is how inkjet printers work. Think of a small vehicle that used a universal fluid for propulsion, braking, power steering, the transmission and HVAC system.

Well, not really, it just seemed a bit better with the extra colors, i.e. distinction between photo black and matte black, and the red ink that helps increase the gamut in the red range, which is known to be a bit hard with regular CMYK blending, if I'm not mistaken.

But please elaborate. Marco_W mentioned a print every <72 hours would avoid cleaning for the 10S. What would be valid for the 100S?

I could probably schedule my computer to do a nozzle check print every other morning (48 hours), but it would probably miss some days due to not being switched on.

A somewhat more forgiving interval that 72 hours would be good.

Krilbe said:

Well, not really, it just seemed a bit better with the extra colors, i.e. distinction between photo black and matte black, and the red ink that helps increase the gamut in the red range, which is known to be a bit hard with regular CMYK blending, if I'm not mistaken.

But please elaborate. Marco_W mentioned a print every <72 hours would avoid cleaning for the 10S. What would be valid for the 100S?

I could probably schedule my computer to do a nozzle check print every other morning (48 hours), but it would probably miss some days due to not being switched on.

A somewhat more forgiving interval that 72 hours would be good.

--
"If there's a price for bein' me, that's one I'll have to pay"
Aaron Tippin

Click to expand...

Dye inks don't need a MK and a PK black ink due to the way that dyes soak into the paper so that doesn't make much of a distinction. The Pro-100 does have Black, Gray and Light Gray and the Pro-10 just has Black and Gray, but owning both of them I like the BW prints on the Pro-10 better.

The other difference the Pro-10 has are the Red and the Gloss Optimizer inks (well GO isn't really ink). Owning both of them I can tell you that there is very little difference between the final product, except black and white on matte paper which is much better with the Pro-10

Don't quote me, but I think they both have the same schedule for printing so you will want to schedule a nozzle check every 72 hours. Check jtoolmans videos on youtube for the exact scheduling on both.

--
Film is making a comeback!

Gesture said:

The ink isn't being wasted. That is how inkjet printers work. Think of a small vehicle that used a universal fluid for propulsion, braking, power steering, the transmission and HVAC system.

Click to expand...

Yes, it is like a car where even if you don't drive it much, you still have to do the regular maintenance.

Inkjet printers have a fixed cost floor that is hard to reduce, since it is a complex machine that must deliver solvents that have to stay wet when not used but must dry quickly once dispensed, all while maintaining perfect color balance. It's a wonder the thing works at all, or needs as little maintenance as it does. But the machine is certainly designed to be used regularly, not at all optimized for occasional use.

I use the technique of running at least a nozzle check once every week, though ideally that should be a full print every week.

Congratulations - Joe Toolman just posted a video for you !!!

Sparse-occasional use printer video recommendation

Jpegman

jpegman said:

Congratulations - Joe Toolman just posted a video for you !!!

Sparse-occasional use printer video recommendation

Jpegman

Click to expand...

LOL, although the way I read this OP, I didn't quite get *that* riled-up. I guess it's a too-common misunderstanding, and my particular fire against it has burned-out.

Krilbe...

I think the best way to understand the ownership of (any) inkjet printer (yes, even the office multi-function ones) is that it is more like a pet or houseplant than any typical piece of equipment most people are used to.

Remember that at its core, 1) the function of an inkjet printer is to dispense tiny droplets of ink from microscopic nozzles. Remember that 2) this ink is formulated so that it dries out near-instantly in air. Given the means (#1 above) and the performance requirements of the ink formulation (#2 above), a large part of the engineering challenge is to keep the ink from drying in the nozzles.

Inkjet manufacturers have done wonders at approaching this, esp. considering the ever-smaller nozzles (for DPI and redundancy) and ever-more-demanding ink formulations (toward desirable ends as increased color gamut, color persistence, surface durability, and media independence). But there are limits to what can be done. So the way these limits are dealt-with by every inkjet printer manufacturer is a carefully-designed timed regimen of various degrees of "cleaning" (it is more accurate to regard it as rinsing the print nozzles) the head with fresh ink, which acts as a solvent to remove the dried-and half-dried ink that would otherwise build-up and clog the nozzle, rendering it useless. Trying to thwart this regimen designed to keep the printheads functional is tantamount to trying to destroy your printheads on-purpose. Needless to say, printheads are pretty expensive.

Jose is understandably annoyed by your misguided attempts to hack what is otherwise a very necessary system to keep the printer functional. The best parallel I can draw is that you are complaining that your puppy is pooping too much and therefore wasting too much puppy food from the (appropriately-calibrated) auto-feeder. So you propose saving puppy food by taking the auto-feeder away (or turning it off somehow) so that the puppy will stop from wasting it as poop. I hope you can see what would be the problem here, and why people who actually understand inkjets would find your proposals somewhere between a hard facepalm and a ROTFLMAO.

Yes, doing a "dummy print" on a regular schedule will keep your printer from having to waste ink into its diaper* with the necessary self-cleaning if you don't use it regularly. In the absence of regular work, we run our PRO-10 every 6 days (schedule a recurring task on your phone calendar) and print a 4x6" of whatever latest shot-du-jour we have, and post it on the fridge. I'm pretty sure we have the artsy-fartsy-est fridge art in all the neighborhood.

(* - Yes, this is a real, literal thing in all inkjet printers as well. A "diaper" (technically known as a waste/maintenance pad/tank/cartridge) is also a consumable quality in your printer. You just don't hear about it in consumer-level printers because it is assumed that you will dispose of the printer before this reaches capacity. The presence of a user-replaceable waste/maintenance cartridge is what differentiates a pro-level machine from a consumer-level one. It obviously indicates the anticipated level of usage.)


Rotating fridge art, so we maintain good habits (i.e. shooting to print) and enjoy prints without having to take everything too seriously (as one might when printing large).

That all said... you truly need to evaluate whether you should or shouldn't own an inkjet printer. Just as everyone likes a puppy, there are very good reasons why one should not have one. Not printing regularly is a very good reason not to have one. It's not just the up-front purchase cost, but a personal commitment that requires diligence and responsibility if you want it to stay working/alive. There is no way to hack that.

And even if you do buck-up and decide that you can be responsible enough to own a fine-art capable inkjet such as the PRO-10S... You should not be looking for the newest, bleeding edge. People who are highly-experienced with dealing with high-performance inkjets are the ones who can do that (eg. Jose). They have the unquestionable dilligence and resources (whether that be technical knowledge, extensive prior experience, or just appropriate expectations) to deal with any peccadilloes that may arise. Because they are mostly on their own when problems/issues occur. You, OTOH, should go with a known quantity, so all the problems/issues have already been encountered by others and solved and/or worked-around. You can ask people for help (and probably receive it) like you did in this thread.

In Joe´s world the questions raised might sound funny or even bizarre. In this case I can´t share his sense of humor. Inkjet printing is not the epicentre of live for many of us and printing every second day seems also for me ( having a fulltime job, a few childs, and other hobbies) out of reach. Of course one could raise the question, if in such a case buying an expensive photoprinter is a good idea. It is definitely not. But the marketing blabla of Canon and Epson is missleading and technical specifications give the impression of relatively cheap printing costs. Many amateur photographers have believed these informations and are shocked by the heavy ink consumption of such printers.

By the way: I have never heard about a car which shows an extreme fuel consumption after a few days of parking in the garage. This comparison is just not correct. And second: I have the strong feeling that Canon and Epson don´t even try to reduce "ink wasting" or absurd ink costs, as it is central part of their business.

Happy Christmas!

Coming from the software devloper community, this is a shocking example of condescending snobbery, that makes me very very happy that I don't work in the printer/design/layout industry.

Jose is probably in general a good and helpful person, but in this video he makes so many mistakes I almost can't find large enough numbers to enumerate them.

When answering questions you should never ever make assumptions about how ignorant the asking person is. Major fault.

How many stories have you heard about people asking for help with their internet connection and receiving unhelpful support replies about making sure cables are connected and so forth? That's not the way to provide good service to being helpful.

Now, I haven't seen any other videos from Jose, but if they are of the same quality as this one, then I'm actually quite happy that I missed them, and that's not primarily because it was me he was bashing this time. I don't take pleasure in bashing in a any way ever. If you do, then you should stop and think twice about if you're really a nice person or not.

Exactly on both accounts. Car manufacturers have made a remarkable effort to make their products "just work" in almost any usage scenario. Inkjet printer manufacturers aren't even close. And the incentive is, as you say, weak. And Jose is with them, apparently. Blinded by being "in the business" for too long?

Off the top of my head I can easily think of several approaches to solve the problem:

1. Wash out ink reminas from the nozzles each time power is switched off or after X hours of idle time (entering "rest mode"?). This should be done by pure water or other cheap liquid, preferably one that can be refilled without replacing a cartrige, i.e. filling up a tank.
2. Do "deep cleaning" as today, but use a cheaper liquid than ink (see above).
3. Seal the nozzles when entering rest mode, to prevent them from drying up at all (perhaps a bit ambitious), or at least make them dry up a lot slower (e.g. not for a week ro two).

The fact that the inkjet manufacturers haven't solved this problem is not, as Jose seems to think, because such users are stupid or shouldn't own an inkjet, but because the manufacturers are "getting away with it" and so have no incentive to solve it.

See, this is what a helpful post looks like. Now, there wasn't really anything new in it, but you tried to explain thing in a nice instructive manner. Jose, on the other hand, made an effort to be mean and condescending, based on false assumptions about me and my level of expertise. That's such a major fault in any attempt to help, I can't really find words to describe it.

Sure, I can understand some frustration coming from a long history of answering "stupid questions", and perhaps I authored my original post in a way that made me appear less informed than I actually am, but that's no excuse to be mean. He's lost it and should stop making videos until he's got to grips with himself again. Perhaps a 12 month vacation or something.

I understand the problem and the difficulties involved, but I still think that the problem is NOT impossible to solve. Rather, that the consumers aren't informed enough to see through the marketing jibberish about ink consumption, which is based on continuous use that very few consumers match.

The fact is that most inkjet users probably use them quite sparsely, and possibly increasingly so, considering most people are getting more and more accustomed to vieweing photos online rather than printing them. So, I would think that I'm far from the only person who has this kind of problem with inkjets. That does NOT, as Jose seems to think, mean that "we" shouldn't own inkjets. It does mean that the problem should be solved.

Taking the car similie, I would be quite surprised if anyone would buy a car that would waste a few litres of fuel every other day just to keep the engine running. A car manufacturer would realize this and use some other approach to keep the engine in running condition, e.g. use a cheap cleaning agent instead of fuel.

Problems can be solved, and user's who point out the problems shouldn't have to be ridiculed for pointing them out.

Krilbe said:

Coming from the software devloper community, this is a shocking example of condescending snobbery, that makes me very very happy that I don't work in the printer/design/layout industry.

Jose is probably in general a good and helpful person, but in this video he makes so many mistakes I almost can't find large enough numbers to enumerate them.

Click to expand...

Jose is a good and helpful person, as far as I can tell (I'm not a frequent poster here, but I'm watching this area). I agree, this particular video was over the top - but please understand his frustration at so many people ruining their printers with infrequent usage. Clogging is a recurrent theme here, and most of the times it's because of infrequent usage (sometimes it's the printer). People are not listening!
Alex

I agree with Alex-;once you buy a good quality printer ,it has to be taken care of-;doing a nozzle check twice a week,takes a few seconds.

Jose'e just gets PO'd at how many people ignore his suggestions.

I've learned a lot listening to Jose',and following his advice.

MikeS.

I've had my run-ins with Jose (jtoolman) over the years. He's a know it all that does not suffer fools lightly. While a lot of us appreciate his knowledge, his delivery and personal attacks are not appreciated. He made a video just for me!

It seems users just don't use it anymore and could solves a lot of problems with ease.

From just two months ago.....

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60241896

Jtoolman has over 25 printers and is probably one of the most knowledgeable printer user/ink cartridge refilling supporter on this planet. I have 5 printers and usually print the nozzle check every 1-2 days and basically have zero problems with excessive uneccessary ink useage and clogging.

I do have one printer, Epson "pigment" R2880 that I use Cone EconoColor "dye" ink in it. I use that printer once a year to print some VFW flyers. The printer sits in a storage area that gets to over 100 degrees F. I just turn it on after 1 year of non use, no auto cleaning takes place, perfect nozzle check on first print!

A laser printer is a way for you to meet your needs, do not knock some of the newer lasers.

I bought this Ricoh multifunction, new, with free shipping, for $135.

Here is a scan of the prints which are very acceptable for photography work and printed on standard copier paper.





Bob P.

Petruska said:

It seems users just don't use it anymore and could solves a lot of problems with ease.

From just two months ago.....

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60241896

Jtoolman has over 25 printers and is probably one of the most knowledgeable printer user/ink cartridge refilling supporter on this planet. I have 5 printers and usually print the nozzle check every 1-2 days and basically have zero problems with excessive uneccessary ink useage and clogging.

I do have one printer, Epson "pigment" R2880 that I use Cone EconoColor "dye" ink in it. I use that printer once a year to print some VFW flyers. The printer sits in a storage area that gets to over 100 degrees F. I just turn it on after 1 year of non use, no auto cleaning takes place, perfect nozzle check on first print!

A laser printer is a way for you to meet your needs, do not knock some of the newer lasers.

I bought this Ricoh multifunction, new, with free shipping, for $135.

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What's the replacement cost for the toner cartridge, Bob?

Krilbe said:

I understand the problem and the difficulties involved, but I still think that the problem is NOT impossible to solve. Rather, that the consumers aren't informed enough to see through the marketing jibberish about ink consumption, which is based on continuous use that very few consumers match.

Click to expand...

Considering the technology is over 40 years old (Xerox in late 1970's) and first consumer injet from HP was released in 1988, and no one or company has "solved" your problem sounds like you shouldn't hold your breath for any near term break throughs.

Krilbe said:

The fact is that most inkjet users probably use them quite sparsely, and possibly increasingly so, considering most people are getting more and more accustomed to vieweing photos online rather than printing them. So, I would think that I'm far from the only person who has this kind of problem with inkjets. That does NOT, as Jose seems to think, mean that "we" shouldn't own inkjets. It does mean that the problem should be solved.

Click to expand...

Most inkjet users follow the simple mantra of frequent use - of something as small as a nozzle check every few days!

Krilbe said:

Taking the car similie, I would be quite surprised if anyone would buy a car that would waste a few litres of fuel every other day just to keep the engine running. A car manufacturer would realize this and use some other approach to keep the engine in running condition, e.g. use a cheap cleaning agent instead of fuel. Problems can be solved, and user's who point out the problems shouldn't have to be ridiculed for pointing them out.

Click to expand...

There is no simile between cars (or any other process I know of) since the analogy between printing with minute spurts of ink and stepping motor controls is unique. You don't like how the printing companies make money - don't use it. Joe shows how to use good 3rd party inks and papers to save money. But, there is trade offs and Joe tells you them - the choice is yours.

Don't think you should shoot the messenger because you don't like his answer - Joe says it like it is and he's got a lot of people who trust him. You should too, even if his tone was a bit rough for your taste. Watch some of his videos, very few are as specific as yours was and most address inkjet printing issues wither with refilling, useage, color management, etc with NO SPECIFIC person in mind. His live broadcasts on the weekends are a treasure trove of specific printing information people "call in (actually chat type in real time)" about. Anything about photo printers is fair game.

Check out some other printing forums and see how apologetic members are to "sparse" users! Head clogs, air gaps, and build up are very common and NO MANUFACTURER tells you about it or when the waste cart (from all the head cleans) gets filled, most printers are DOA - as the factory repair cost is more than the printer cost. Joe lays it all out as it is.

printerknowledge.com

inkjetmall.com

Jpegman

Petruska,

Outstanding images,I tip my hat to you.

Yes,I have 3 canon printers ,the pro-100,pro-10,& just got the Pro-1,{with PC inks}

Going to sell the Pro-100,running out of room..

I've never had any problems with any of them,just run nozzle checks 2-3 x's per week,and all stays kosher.

Have a good New Years Eve.& a healthy 2018..

MikeS