Will Panasonic stay the distance?

OzRay · Sep 27, 2017

d3xmeister said:
I’m following some successful pro photographers for maybe 15 years. For many years they only shot stills, but in these past years, almost all of them are shooting stills+video now. Some of them want to, but most of them have to. Stills and video are hand in hand right now, and finding a client who is only interested in stills, or is willing to pay separately for video and stills, is becoming almost impossible.

Absolutely. That is the way with many professional photographers, be it wedding, news, sports, whatever. The thing is, you can't do good video by just pointing your stills/video capable camera and firing away.

d3xmeister said:
And even more and more hobbyists are shooting stills and video. Add youtubers and bloggers photographers.

Yes, and many YouTubers and vloggers are using dedicated video cameras because they tend to be better suited to the task.

d3xmeister said:
So in my opinion, the people who aren’t interested in video, think that manufacturers shouldn’t emphasize video, etc, don’t realise that they are now an insignificant minority.

I'm not sure where you're getting that idea.

d3xmeister said:
Based on that, I think Panasonic and Sony do realize that more than the others, while Nikon, Fuji, Olympus and slowly Canon are barely starting to catch up, and they are slowly following Panasonic and Sony footsteps or they risk to become a small niche.

Therein lies the rub. Video camera manufacturers like RED, are producing dedicated video cameras that can extract stills. These cameras are much better at video (from handling and other perspectives) than a DSLR-like camera that does video.

Imagine a RED-like camera in m4/3 format, like this perhaps: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/au/products/blackmagicmicrocinemacamera or this: https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/au/products/blackmagicmicrostudiocamera4k , but with some Panasonic magic thrown in.

See where this is heading?

GodSpeaks · Sep 27, 2017

[No message]

peppermonkey · Sep 27, 2017

OzRay said:
peppermonkey said:

OzRay said:

Given the solid emphasis on video, I sometimes wonder whether Panasonic will once again walk away, or significantly reduce its m4/3 input, and put its efforts into video cameras, using the knowledge they have gained from the m4/3 system. Anecdotally, Panasonic m4/3 cameras don’t sell in the numbers to stills photographers as do Olympus cameras, but they are highly regarded in the video/film making community.

I've been wondering about this for a while, so thought I'd put it down in writing.

Click to expand...

Not sure if you have noticed but Panasonic is already heavily invested in high end professional video. Different department but they don't need to "drop" m43 to concentrate on video. If they drop m43, it won't be to concentrate on video, it would be to get out of m43 only.

Click to expand...

As I pointed out in another response, it's not about dropping m4/3, but taking a different direction and concentrating on its strengths.

As I mentioned, they are already going full on into high end professional video. They don't need to change direction because they are already doing it. No need to concentrate more into video because they are already fully committed to high end professional video. They have been at it for decades. It's a different division inside Panasonic so (probably) don't have any real communication with the M43 division.

Again, if Panasonic decides to fold their m43 division, it's not because they will focus purely on video because there is already a division doing just that. If Panasonic leaves m43, it'll be purely to leave the m43 market and nothing to do with video.

Wellington100 · Sep 27, 2017

OzRay said:
In the 4/3 days, Panasonic was a solid player, producing some great cameras and lenses, but then just dropped everything and left Olympus to do its own devices. Panasonic came back with m4/3 and has put in a lot more effort with cameras and lenses, but I wonder whether this will last.

From the outset, Panasonic has been putting video capability at the forefront with their cameras, with the GH5 being its premier product. Video is where Panasonic has always excelled, so this is no surprise. Every time I read about Panasonic on the Internet, the emphasis seems to be on video, certainly prominent Panasonic users are more often than not videographers/film makers.

The new firmware updates for the GH5 predominantly are to do with video production improvements and videographers/film makers are over the moon. This review: http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/09/...-400-mbps-codec-and-anamorphic-now-available/ of the updates is an example of the emphasis on video capabilities. Yes, it is a video-centric site, but that seems to be the case with most discussions about Panasonic.

Given the solid emphasis on video, I sometimes wonder whether Panasonic will once again walk away, or significantly reduce its m4/3 input, and put its efforts into video cameras, using the knowledge they have gained from the m4/3 system. Anecdotally, Panasonic m4/3 cameras don’t sell in the numbers to stills photographers as do Olympus cameras, but they are highly regarded in the video/film making community.

I've been wondering about this for a while, so thought I'd put it down in writing.

Old Listener · Sep 27, 2017

OzRay said:
Old Listener said:

OzRay said:

And that's another issue, m4/3 is not all that well regarded in the world's biggest market/s.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

tgutgu · Sep 27, 2017

Tom Caldwell said:
OzRay said:

In the 4/3 days, Panasonic was a solid player, producing some great cameras and lenses, but then just dropped everything and left Olympus to do its own devices. Panasonic came back with m4/3 and has put in a lot more effort with cameras and lenses, but I wonder whether this will last.

From the outset, Panasonic has been putting video capability at the forefront with their cameras, with the GH5 being its premier product. Video is where Panasonic has always excelled, so this is no surprise. Every time I read about Panasonic on the Internet, the emphasis seems to be on video, certainly prominent Panasonic users are more often than not videographers/film makers.

The new firmware updates for the GH5 predominantly are to do with video production improvements and videographers/film makers are over the moon. This review: http://www.newsshooter.com/2017/09/...-400-mbps-codec-and-anamorphic-now-available/ of the updates is an example of the emphasis on video capabilities. Yes, it is a video-centric site, but that seems to be the case with most discussions about Panasonic.

Given the solid emphasis on video, I sometimes wonder whether Panasonic will once again walk away, or significantly reduce its m4/3 input, and put its efforts into video cameras, using the knowledge they have gained from the m4/3 system.

Click to expand...

Canon has also put great emphasis on video. In fact it was the thought of spending a regular AUD$3,500+ to update my 5D to MkII, MkIII, MkIV for better video (among other things) that made me think why would I do this as I don't do video. I stopped buying Canon dslr bodies because I felt that I was simply going to be churning over expensive product for a prime feature that I did not use.

Furthermore Canon make even higher level video gear at fantanbulous prices that can use EF lenses which show that they are pitching to the high-end margin professional crowd.

As I am quite happy with the range of camera bodies that Panasonic sell where video is almost an afterthought I can quite avoid buying a video-mavin GH5 as it is of little interest to me.

To think that Panasonic simply makes camera bodies with high emphasis on video attributes it to not know Panasonic products very well.

Panasonic unlike Olympus caters for a wider range of user requirements. For example they offer a 'slr-style' body with fully articulated lcd and also a 'RF-style' body with tilt screen. Both of these are pitched at slightly different markets and despite being mid-range size/price are actually powerhouse stills cameras not pitched particularly at video use. The only concession to not being top of range is that they still retain the 16mp sensor and this makes them more affordable. Unlike the Olympus nearest alternative - the E-M10iii which seems to be deliberately dumbed down perhaps to protect its market for the prostpective E-M5iii and current E-M1ii.

If Panasonic were to make an updated GX9 with tilt lcd I would be very interested.

Also, unlike Olympus, Panasonic has an enviable reputation for making bullet proof reliable cameras.

Huh? Where is your evidence that Panasonic’s product quality is much higher than that Olympus?

Tom Caldwell said:
Tom Caldwell said:

Anecdotally, Panasonic m4/3 cameras don’t sell in the numbers to stills photographers as do Olympus cameras, but they are highly regarded in the video/film making community.

Click to expand...

Why Olympus sell relatively more cameras than Panasonic I do not know but certainly Panasonic needs Olympus to stay in the M4/3 mount system.

However if any of the two is shakey I don't think it is Panasonic.

Tom Caldwell said:

I've been wondering about this for a while, so thought I'd put it down in writing.

Click to expand...

007peter · Sep 27, 2017

OzRay said:
OzRay wrote: ......Given the solid emphasis on video, I sometimes wonder whether Panasonic will once again walk away, or significantly reduce its m4/3 input, and put its efforts into video cameras,

I can't be help. There is simply more $ PROFIT $ in selling High End Video equipment than there is in selling ~~traditional still camera~~ that is slowly EATEN UP by Smartphones.

I'm Happy that Panasonic (unlike others camera makers) has established itself solidly in the professional video arena. I can see Gh6, Gh7, Gh8 etc..... eventually become all out High End Pro Video competitor to RED.

However, I am also a little SAD. I have no doubt that Panasonic has to direct its effort toward Pro Video, there simply isn't much profit in the traditional still photography anymore. Making it worst is the ever increasing Iphone X threats:

Iphone X can shoot:
1080p video @a whopping 240 FPS (makes it sports camera imho)
4K @60fps without overheating (Sony A7 are you listening?)
4K without Cropping (better than Gh4 or overprice Canon 5Dmk4)

If you shoot 4K, the $1000 price tag for Iphone X really isn't all that expensive.

I hope Panasonic hasn't given up on making Affordable Entry M43 for us, but I can't blame Panasonic if it decide to retreat to Pro Video world either.

OzRay · Sep 27, 2017

peppermonkey said:
As I mentioned, they are already going full on into high end professional video. They don't need to change direction because they are already doing it. No need to concentrate more into video because they are already fully committed to high end professional video. They have been at it for decades. It's a different division inside Panasonic so (probably) don't have any real communication with the M43 division.

I know that Panasonic has been doing high end gear for a long time and they've used that knowledge in their m4/3 cameras. I don't need to be constantly reminded.

The GH5 is an advanced video option that sits below the high end gear. My ponderings are that video is where Panasonic excels and is where they are getting the most attention with their GH4/GH5.

peppermonkey said:
Again, if Panasonic decides to fold their m43 division, it's not because they will focus purely on video because there is already a division doing just that. If Panasonic leaves m43, it'll be purely to leave the m43 market and nothing to do with video.

It would be a different video focus, just what they are doing now with the GH5, but delivered in a different format. Look at what Blackmagic is doing, it's the sort of stuff that would go down well with videographers and filmmakers in general.

What might be the catalyst to prompt such a move, if at all? Saying it can't happen is not an argument. Like I noted, no one saw Samsung dropping their camera line.

OzRay · Sep 27, 2017

Wellington100 said:
My guess is yes, Panny have carved out a good niche in the video side of things. I hope so anyway.

Panasonic is doing extremely well in the video space, especially in the portable, high quality scene, an area that they excel in.

d3xmeister · Sep 27, 2017

Very few are using dedicated video cameras. Dedicated video cameras have always been around. And yes they can be better. But most want a hybrid solution, there’s been a boom these past years. For the people I mentioned I follow, and they are many, I actually know only two that use dedicated video cameras, the vast, vast, vast majority are using stills cameras.

OzRay · Sep 27, 2017

Old Listener said:
For Jan-July 2017, the dollar value of shipment for mirrorless cameras is more than 50% of that for DSLRs. The ratio has been moving upward. m43 is part of the healthy part of the camera market.

Sony is a big part of that growth and even Canon with their half-hearted attempts are right in there regardless.

Old Listener said:
Both Olympus and Panasonic have been focused on profitability in the last few years rather than on spending to gain market share. Panasonic seems to avoiding having to discount heavily to clear excess inventory.

They should have started doing that years ago, but it is paying off now. But note also, that camera models are reducing in range and new models are slowing as well.

Old Listener said:
Spending big on marketing in the USA to compete with Canon, Nikon and Sony for market share might not be a good use of limited marketing budgets.

I think the US market especially has a mindset that big is better. It would be easier to upsell small portion breakfasts.

OzRay · Sep 27, 2017

007peter said:
007peter said:

OzRay wrote: ......Given the solid emphasis on video, I sometimes wonder whether Panasonic will once again walk away, or significantly reduce its m4/3 input, and put its efforts into video cameras,

Click to expand...

I can't be help. There is simply more $ PROFIT $ in selling High End Video equipment than there is in selling ~~traditional still camera~~ that is slowly EATEN UP by Smartphones.

I'm Happy that Panasonic (unlike others camera makers) has established itself solidly in the professional video arena. I can see Gh6, Gh7, Gh8 etc..... eventually become all out High End Pro Video competitor to RED.

However, I am also a little SAD. I have no doubt that Panasonic has to direct its effort toward Pro Video, there simply isn't much profit in the traditional still photography anymore. Making it worst is the ever increasing Iphone X threats:

Iphone X can shoot:

1080p video @a whopping 240 FPS (makes it sports camera imho)

4K @60fps without overheating (Sony A7 are you listening?)

4K without Cropping (better than Gh4 or overprice Canon 5Dmk4)

If you shoot 4K, the $1000 price tag for Iphone X really isn't all that expensive.

I hope Panasonic hasn't given up on making Affordable Entry M43 for us, but I can't blame Panasonic if it decide to retreat to Pro Video world either.

This is the issue that I think is causing sleepless nights at all camera companies.

OzRay · Sep 27, 2017

d3xmeister said:
Very few are using dedicated video cameras. Dedicated video cameras have always been around. And yes they can be better. But most want a hybrid solution, there’s been a boom these past years. For the people I mentioned I follow, and they are many, I actually know only two that use dedicated video cameras, the vast, vast, vast majority are using stills cameras.

I was mainly talking about video for use in vlogging, when I was researching whether to get an action cam or a dedicated video camera (camcorder) for stuff I wanted to do, I found a lot of articles on vlogging where camcorders were recommended.

That said, there are a hell of a lot of people that use camcorders to do all manner of video that they then post on YouTube. If you search for camcorders, the list available is huge, including 4K. There are some major benefits to camcorders.

--
Thoughts, Musings, Ideas and Images from South Gippsland
https://australianimage.com.au

007peter · Sep 27, 2017

caterpillar said:
At the most, Panasonic can release a new larger sized sensor system. It's been pointed out since the beginning that 4/3 or m4/3 sized sensor will find itself trapped to go higher pixel count. And that is just the case. Even if one argues that the 20mp barrier now can be breached, the larger sensor will always have and advantage and be ahead by 4-8mp for the same IQ.

I believe this is the ultimate direction for Panasonic to take. Many of the my videographer friends have moved on to a 12mp Sony A7S from their firmware hacked Gh2, Gh3, Gh4.

Many of them HATE SONY - but they NEED the lowlight shooting ability of Sony A7S. Had Panasonic offer a FF Gh6 solution, many of them would gladly stay with Panasonic.

They put up with Sony because they need to. Unlike Still photography that can rely on external flash to supply a quick burst of light; video requires a Constant Light output, that means you either LIGHT UP the entire outdoor, or you shoot @high iso with horrible grain....or you upgrade to a Sony A7S.

OzRay · Sep 27, 2017

That's why LED light panels have become so popular (I've ordered one for myself), as it's another 'technical' issue that videographers have to contend with.

But in your example, the Sony A7S is indeed a light eating monster, but it doesn't obviate the need for supplementary lighting.

Unless your entire video shoot is done in the same lighting conditions, merging everything and providing a seamless lighting experience can become a nightmare.

And thanks for pointing that out, as it's another thing I'll have to add to the video story I'm writing.

007peter · Sep 27, 2017

OzRay said:
OzRay wrote: That's why LED light panels have become so popular (I've ordered one for myself), as it's another 'technical' issue that videographers have to contend with.

But in your example, the Sony A7S is indeed a light eating monster, but it doesn't obviate the need for supplementary lighting.

Agree you NEED both supplemental front LED panel to (lighting up face) plus High ISO capability to captured background that can't be reached by LED panel.

For my friends, the High $2,000 Price Tag of Panasonic Gh5 has push them to a Sony A7S for the same price. To them, shooting @native 4K simply isn't as important as the ability to shoot @high 128,000 iso with minimal grain. Sony excellent FREE S-LOG versus $100 Panason V-Log also left a bad taste in their mouth.

All I can say is that Videographers have a complete different Needs than us still photographer. They don't care about High Resolution or quick AF speed as they do about Lowlight Iso and log profiles.

OzRay said:
Unless your entire video shoot is done in the same lighting conditions, merging everything and providing a seamless lighting experience can become a nightmare.

And thanks for ping that out, as it's another thing I'll have to add to the video story I'm writing.

--
Thoughts, Musings, Ideas and Images from South Gippsland
https://australianimage.com.au

OzRay · Sep 28, 2017

007peter said:
007peter said:

OzRay wrote: That's why LED light panels have become so popular (I've ordered one for myself), as it's another 'technical' issue that videographers have to contend with.

But in your example, the Sony A7S is indeed a light eating monster, but it doesn't obviate the need for supplementary lighting.

Click to expand...

Agree you NEED both supplemental front LED panel to (lighting up face) plus High ISO capability to captured background that can't be reached by LED panel.

For my friends, the High $2,000 Price Tag of Panasonic Gh5 has push them to a Sony A7S for the same price. To them, shooting @native 4K simply isn't as important as the ability to shoot @high 128,000 iso with minimal grain. Sony excellent FREE S-LOG versus $100 Panason V-Log also left a bad taste in their mouth.

All I can say is that Videographers have a complete different Needs than us still photographer. They don't care about High Resolution or quick AF speed as they do about Lowlight Iso and log profiles.

That's something I've tried to point out for some time, but there are those that here that can't see that.

Pixnat2 · Sep 28, 2017

Numbers aren't everything. But they can add some rationality in the debate.

Back to 4/3 days, the situation was (I don't count other manufacturers, only Oly and Panasonic) :

Cameras

Olympus : 15 (88%)
Panasonic: 2 (12%)

Lenses

Olympus : 21 (84%)
Panasonic: 4 (16%)

Now in m4/3, the situation is :

Cameras

Olympus : 22 (45%)
Panasonic: 27 (55%)

Lenses

Olympus : 29 (45%)
Panasonic: 36 (55%)

So what changed?

If we take only numbers in account, Olympus was the clear major player of 4/3, Panasonic contribution was only minor.

Today, Panasonic is the major m4/3 player, with 55% of all 4/3 cameras and lenses of those 2 players.

So the question could well be : will Olympus stay the distance?

My personal answer (opinion) is : both will.

--
Cheers,
Frederic
http://www.azurphoto.com/

OzRay · Sep 28, 2017

Pixnat2 said:
Numbers aren't everything. But they can add some rationality in the debate.

Back to 4/3 days, the situation was (I don't count other manufacturers, only Oly and Panasonic) :

Cameras

Olmypus : 15 (88%)

Panasonic: 2 (12%)

Lenses

Olmypus : 21 (84%)

Panasonic: 4 (16%)

Now in m4/3, the situation is :

Cameras

Olmypus : 22 (45%)

Panasonic: 27 (55%)

Lenses

Olmypus : 29 (45%)

Panasonic: 36 (55%)

So what changed?

If we take only numbers in account, Olympus was the clear major player of 4/3, Panasonic contribution was only minor.

Today, Panasonic is the major 4/3 player, with 55% of all 4/3 cameras and lenses of those 2 players.

So the question could well be : will Olympus stay the distance?

My personal answer (opinion) is : both will.

I don't think the numbers really reveal what could happen. Given that many lenses and cameras have been discontinued, you could just as easily say that Olympus has 37 cameras and Panasonic has 29, and Olympus has 50 lenses and Panasonic has 38.

Also, if Panasonic has 55% of all m4/3 cameras and lenses, why are they selling far less than Olympus cameras and lenses. In all the Japanese camera sales reports (which are the easiest to get), Panasonic doesn't even appear in the list: http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/japanese-market-shares.html .

More evidence?

Pixnat2 · Sep 28, 2017

Panasonic was a minor player in 4/3 and is a major player in m4/3.

IMHO, you can't compare both situations, since the situation is completely diffrent.

That said, no company is safe today.

--
Cheers,
Frederic
http://www.azurphoto.com/

Will Panasonic stay the distance?

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