I think Canon just caught up with Olympus

The only point I wished to raise was that a clean apparently simple interface should not equate to 'novice'. I was trained as a designer and learned quite quickly that a far more effort, thinking and skill goes into making things appear simple than it does to make things seem complex.

The old saying never judge a book by it's cover springs to mind. And one more thing that springs to mind is the pack mentality of many reviewers. I have seen it in many areas and especially in motoring and racing bikes. The end result is usually a device that in general reviewers rave about, yet in practical use no one can handle.

It was just much simpler for me to point to Leica as an example.

--
Adrian
http://www.artfotografia.co.uk/
Apple is a prime example of a UI that just works whether you love Apple or hate it. I could give an iPhone to my 80yr old mother and she would figure out how to make a call. God help us if Olympus made a smart phone UI!

The Olympus interface is a mess and always has been. Its also very powerful and once you get used to it, it does work. I think a lot of the bad comments come from people who don't use Olympus cameras on a regular basis as switching back and forth between, say Canon/Olympus is a PITA. If Olympus is your only camera, then its fine. Now with that being said, I still have trouble finding settings that I don't use often; that's when I curse Olympus!

--
http://stringfellow.smugmug.com
I agree, this is well put and I think that the word that Adrian was looking for was "elegant" to describe an interface that is simple and yet functional.

As someone who has designed and supervised the coding of computer systems I know that it is relatively easy to make them do something but much harder to make the process easier for the users.

I had a partner who said "we can get used to it". But I insisted that our programs were fluid and natural to use and followed intuitive manual bookkeping practice. The end result was more work for the programmer to get the interface right and a huge saving in the cost of training staff to use the system and a further huge improvement in the speed of data capture and reduction in user frustration.

The programmer was made to work harde to get the interface "right" and the dividends were immense.

The world is divided between those "getting used to it" and those that truly appreciate an interface that is natural and burr free from day one (often called "elegant").

Apple has a good grasp of making systems elegant but I am not a firm believer in their way as it is often so obscure that only an "Apple" true believer can follow it. Apple does tend to be "the Apple way or the highway" even when other ways are more superior. The innards are so deliberately hidden away that it seems that Apple considers their users as a legion of fools. Therefore there interfaces do tend to take a more obscure path once you get beyond the basics. And only those fully steeped in Apple tradition can quickly get under the otherwise slick superficiality. Most users will praise the simplicty because they don't need to drive anything as it whisked away by the system "don't you worry about that ....".

--
Tom Caldwell
Never knew we had the same or similar professions. I'm an Electrical Engineer, but most of my career has been spent programming test systems. I have had my own business for the past 28 years writing test software. I tell people that my design philosophy is 'Simple Elegance'. To me that means doing everything you need but in the simplest manner possible so a user with no advance knowledge of my software can quickly figure out how to use it.
Easy words to say, but the proof is in the results and accomplishments.
Maybe we can Get Olympus to hire us and straighten out the UI. I personally would be ashamed of such a mess. I would never put out a product like that.
Those are lofty expectations for someone that doesn't understand the basics of different photography use models as demonstrated in this thread. Please don't. Over confidence and limited understanding often results in a bigger mess. Large software projects today are done by a process oriented teams, not individual code slingers.
--
Jonathan
I've previously asked you to stop this childish behavior. Grow up. Don't reply to my posts any more.

--
Jonathan
Your continued bashing of Olympus will get a reaction from people. If you don't want a strong response don't go after companies and products, especially under the cover of false pretenses.
--
Jonathan
That's a better solution than whining about the criticism of your threads.
 
Last edited:
Yes, I am hardly a professional programmer, but I know enough to understand the basics.

Lets just call it firmware for the basics of this post but it does apply to all programming endeavours.

It is all about the original design - what can be done with the code. A well designed system is flexible to a greater point. A bit of clever forethought will allow a good deal of extension, clean code, and a good user interface. This would require that the project be well thought out on the basis of what we will need to provide in the future and how it could be latched in.

However if the features race on beyond the original design concept it gets harder and harder to fit them into a framework that might not have been capable of easily handling it. Then the innards of such systems start to look like a crazy tangle. But at first the end user might not exactly notice. Everything whirrs around inside in micro-seconds. They only need to switch on and do what they have to do with it.

But as the tangle of patching-on increases the working bits to the end user interface becaomes awkward and starts looking a bit theadbare around the edges. Time to redesign and rebuild form scratch. It need not look much different to the end user, but will always work better with much smaller code and seem much easier to use.

The trouble with digital is that I doubt if anyone coding for it back in the early days fully realised the extent of the engineering achievements that might eventually have to be accommodated. If they have to be cobbled into a base design built to accommodate it then it is hardly surprising that things eventually start looking like a patchwork quilt.
 
So with that in mind, how can Canon ever catch up to Olympus. That's 12 letters in between !!

All the best and they will never catch up, unless we start dropping letters.

Danny.
 
Yes, I am hardly a professional programmer, but I know enough to understand the basics.

Lets just call it firmware for the basics of this post but it does apply to all programming endeavours.

It is all about the original design - what can be done with the code. A well designed system is flexible to a greater point. A bit of clever forethought will allow a good deal of extension, clean code, and a good user interface. This would require that the project be well thought out on the basis of what we will need to provide in the future and how it could be latched in.

However if the features race on beyond the original design concept it gets harder and harder to fit them into a framework that might not have been capable of easily handling it. Then the innards of such systems start to look like a crazy tangle. But at first the end user might not exactly notice. Everything whirrs around inside in micro-seconds. They only need to switch on and do what they have to do with it.

But as the tangle of patching-on increases the working bits to the end user interface becaomes awkward and starts looking a bit theadbare around the edges. Time to redesign and rebuild form scratch. It need not look much different to the end user, but will always work better with much smaller code and seem much easier to use.

The trouble with digital is that I doubt if anyone coding for it back in the early days fully realised the extent of the engineering achievements that might eventually have to be accommodated. If they have to be cobbled into a base design built to accommodate it then it is hardly surprising that things eventually start looking like a patchwork quilt.
 
The only point I wished to raise was that a clean apparently simple interface should not equate to 'novice'. I was trained as a designer and learned quite quickly that a far more effort, thinking and skill goes into making things appear simple than it does to make things seem complex.

The old saying never judge a book by it's cover springs to mind. And one more thing that springs to mind is the pack mentality of many reviewers. I have seen it in many areas and especially in motoring and racing bikes. The end result is usually a device that in general reviewers rave about, yet in practical use no one can handle.

It was just much simpler for me to point to Leica as an example.
 
An M100 doesn't have the controls that most advanced amateurs and Pros would want for their photography.
The upside of the M100s lack of external controls is that it makes the camera less intimidating to first time camera buyers.

"An easy-to-use yet powerful camera, the EOS M100 is an excellent choice for those looking to step up from smartphone photography,..." -Canon press release
 
An M100 doesn't have the controls that most advanced amateurs and Pros would want for their photography.
The upside of the M100s lack of external controls is that it makes the camera less intimidating to first time camera buyers.

"An easy-to-use yet powerful camera, the EOS M100 is an excellent choice for those looking to step up from smartphone photography,..." -Canon press release
Exactly.
 
The only point I wished to raise was that a clean apparently simple interface should not equate to 'novice'. I was trained as a designer and learned quite quickly that a far more effort, thinking and skill goes into making things appear simple than it does to make things seem complex.

The old saying never judge a book by it's cover springs to mind. And one more thing that springs to mind is the pack mentality of many reviewers. I have seen it in many areas and especially in motoring and racing bikes. The end result is usually a device that in general reviewers rave about, yet in practical use no one can handle.

It was just much simpler for me to point to Leica as an example.

--
Adrian
http://www.artfotografia.co.uk/
Apple is a prime example of a UI that just works whether you love Apple or hate it. I could give an iPhone to my 80yr old mother and she would figure out how to make a call. God help us if Olympus made a smart phone UI!

The Olympus interface is a mess and always has been. Its also very powerful and once you get used to it, it does work. I think a lot of the bad comments come from people who don't use Olympus cameras on a regular basis as switching back and forth between, say Canon/Olympus is a PITA. If Olympus is your only camera, then its fine. Now with that being said, I still have trouble finding settings that I don't use often; that's when I curse Olympus!

--
http://stringfellow.smugmug.com
I agree, this is well put and I think that the word that Adrian was looking for was "elegant" to describe an interface that is simple and yet functional.

As someone who has designed and supervised the coding of computer systems I know that it is relatively easy to make them do something but much harder to make the process easier for the users.

I had a partner who said "we can get used to it". But I insisted that our programs were fluid and natural to use and followed intuitive manual bookkeping practice. The end result was more work for the programmer to get the interface right and a huge saving in the cost of training staff to use the system and a further huge improvement in the speed of data capture and reduction in user frustration.

The programmer was made to work harde to get the interface "right" and the dividends were immense.

The world is divided between those "getting used to it" and those that truly appreciate an interface that is natural and burr free from day one (often called "elegant").

Apple has a good grasp of making systems elegant but I am not a firm believer in their way as it is often so obscure that only an "Apple" true believer can follow it. Apple does tend to be "the Apple way or the highway" even when other ways are more superior. The innards are so deliberately hidden away that it seems that Apple considers their users as a legion of fools. Therefore there interfaces do tend to take a more obscure path once you get beyond the basics. And only those fully steeped in Apple tradition can quickly get under the otherwise slick superficiality. Most users will praise the simplicty because they don't need to drive anything as it whisked away by the system "don't you worry about that ....".

--
Tom Caldwell
Never knew we had the same or similar professions. I'm an Electrical Engineer, but most of my career has been spent programming test systems. I have had my own business for the past 28 years writing test software. I tell people that my design philosophy is 'Simple Elegance'. To me that means doing everything you need but in the simplest manner possible so a user with no advance knowledge of my software can quickly figure out how to use it.
“Everything should be as simple as it can be, but not simpler

- Einstein
Maybe we can Get Olympus to hire us and straighten out the UI. I personally would be ashamed of such a mess. I would never put out a product like that.
Oh please try. As the Olympus GUI is already top notch by most parts, and the few that are questionable, it is best compromise that there was. Their UI is as well one of the bests there are, so I would really love to see what you could make from it.

So take pen and paper and start sketching mockups just for sake of our interest to show how you would think Olympus should do it to get it far better, as it should be so easy because you say it is a such mess and you could get so much sense to it.
 
Last edited:
The problem (for both M43 & EOS-M) us that Canon own small SL1/SL2 dsle with its like of Sharp yet Affordable STM lens has neuter mirrorless appeal. M43 with a Zook lens isn't that much smaller than a Canon SL1/SL2 with a zoom lens.
Say what? Err...GM1/5 with kit lens...is quite a bit smaller I do believe...

http://j.mp/2xGgzqK


Indistinguishable.



3b0f6ffcf42e474a807648100a25afae.jpg.png




 
The problem (for both M43 & EOS-M) us that Canon own small SL1/SL2 dsle with its like of Sharp yet Affordable STM lens has neuter mirrorless appeal. M43 with a Zook lens isn't that much smaller than a Canon SL1/SL2 with a zoom lens.
Say what? Err...GM1/5 with kit lens...is quite a bit smaller I do believe...

http://j.mp/2xGgzqK
Indistinguishable.

3b0f6ffcf42e474a807648100a25afae.jpg.png
Lol, I'd like to live in a world where even an entry level DSLR with kit zoom is anywhere near the size of a m43 with a pancake zoom. Then I wouldn't have had to buy a GX85 if I was able to shove my D5000 with kit lens into my jacket pocket.
 
The problem (for both M43 & EOS-M) us that Canon own small SL1/SL2 dsle with its like of Sharp yet Affordable STM lens has neuter mirrorless appeal. M43 with a Zook lens isn't that much smaller than a Canon SL1/SL2 with a zoom lens.
Say what? Err...GM1/5 with kit lens...is quite a bit smaller I do believe...

http://j.mp/2xGgzqK
Indistinguishable.

3b0f6ffcf42e474a807648100a25afae.jpg.png
Why are we comparing two same size and weight cameras?
 
The problem (for both M43 & EOS-M) us that Canon own small SL1/SL2 dsle with its like of Sharp yet Affordable STM lens has neuter mirrorless appeal. M43 with a Zook lens isn't that much smaller than a Canon SL1/SL2 with a zoom lens.
Say what? Err...GM1/5 with kit lens...is quite a bit smaller I do believe...

http://j.mp/2xGgzqK
Indistinguishable.
:-D

It was the bulk difference that made me move from Canon FF to micro four thirds. I may need a big pocket, but I can put my E-M1.2 with the pancake lens into it. I could not do that with my Canon DSLR.
Lol, I'd like to live in a world where even an entry level DSLR with kit zoom is anywhere near the size of a m43 with a pancake zoom. Then I wouldn't have had to buy a GX85 if I was able to shove my D5000 with kit lens into my jacket pocket.
 
The M100 is more a cell phone competitor aimed at beginners. "The use of interchangeable lenses is a differentiator factor of the Canon EOS M-Series from most smartphone photography" - from Canon press release.

The EM10iii is positioned as an entry level camera for serious photography. The product descriptions are clearly focused at different users. The M100 has limited controls, with only one control wheel which makes it usability more limited. The EM10iii has a more complete set of controls that make it much more suited as an entry level camera for someone that is a more experienced photographer

These cameras will appeal to different audiences. Image quality will be affected more by lenses than the difference in sensors.
Serious or not its separated by an evf, hotshoe and more physical buttons.
You can quibble on wording, but a camera without a viewfinder, with minimal buttons, with only one wheel control limits how efficiently a photographer can work. A camera missing these basic capabilities would do in a pinch if it wasn't possible to have a camera with features that most photographers expect.
If the "Photographer" in your context means a professional that is working in situations that can be quickly over (talking about second or two) then you are right.

If the "Photographer" means anyone who owns a camera and wants to have a camera that allows to swap lenses and take longer exposures, adjust exposure for creative work without time pressure, then you are totally wrong.

Like example a food photographer or landscape photographer doesn't benefit from EVF or hotshoe or dual-dial physical controls as they work anyways around those easily.
 
The M100 is more a cell phone competitor aimed at beginners. "The use of interchangeable lenses is a differentiator factor of the Canon EOS M-Series from most smartphone photography" - from Canon press release.

The EM10iii is positioned as an entry level camera for serious photography. The product descriptions are clearly focused at different users. The M100 has limited controls, with only one control wheel which makes it usability more limited. The EM10iii has a more complete set of controls that make it much more suited as an entry level camera for someone that is a more experienced photographer

These cameras will appeal to different audiences. Image quality will be affected more by lenses than the difference in sensors.
That's what I would think too, but Olympus highlighting their improvement of AUTO and AP modes, while removing enthusiast features like remove flash triggering, making bracketing only accessible in the AP mode with program exposure control, and removing customisability in assigning features to Fn buttons, makes me think that Olympus isn't sure who this camera is for.
I think that the E-M10iii is very much having a bob each way by Olympus - simple enough to be attractive to new basic-level users but complex enough to be used as a serious camera. But not slick enough to have very freature which might make it a real rival to the top of the line priced E-M1ii.

Unfortunately the E-M10iii has already had the kiss of death placed on it by being seen by reviewers as a basic camera for basic users. The same sort of categorisation that the GM series suffered from: the camera as second string, backup, or placed in very large pockets (effectively: a toy).

If this is the case than those basic level users are going to baulk at the asking price.

Strangely it might be thought that the E-M10iii falls right into the same type bracket as the Panasonic GX85 and G85 and these cameras are not being categorised as "basic-user, second rate, pocketable, backup, ...."

Graphical easy-user interface to modes does not send out the message that the intended use is anything other than the very basic. It is likely that most of these cameras will be bought and then used on "Auto-only" just as the reviews will have pronounced ....
 
The M100 is more a cell phone competitor aimed at beginners. "The use of interchangeable lenses is a differentiator factor of the Canon EOS M-Series from most smartphone photography" - from Canon press release.

The EM10iii is positioned as an entry level camera for serious photography. The product descriptions are clearly focused at different users. The M100 has limited controls, with only one control wheel which makes it usability more limited. The EM10iii has a more complete set of controls that make it much more suited as an entry level camera for someone that is a more experienced photographer

These cameras will appeal to different audiences. Image quality will be affected more by lenses than the difference in sensors.
Serious or not its separated by an evf, hotshoe and more physical buttons.
You can quibble on wording, but a camera without a viewfinder, with minimal buttons, with only one wheel control limits how efficiently a photographer can work. A camera missing these basic capabilities would do in a pinch if it wasn't possible to have a camera with features that most photographers expect.
If the "Photographer" in your context means a professional that is working in situations that can be quickly over (talking about second or two) then you are right.

If the "Photographer" means anyone who owns a camera and wants to have a camera that allows to swap lenses and take longer exposures, adjust exposure for creative work without time pressure, then you are totally wrong.

Like example a food photographer or landscape photographer doesn't benefit from EVF or hotshoe or dual-dial physical controls as they work anyways around those easily.
There are many situations where the moment can be gone quickly and you still need to be concerned with proper exposure. Try using the LM100 for bird photography, or better yet BIF. Even at home try telling kids to hold it while you fiddle to change the control wheel to exposure compensation because they just moved into an area with different lighting. You are shooting an outdoor concert and the guitarist leans into the shade. Your simplistic view of the need for quick adjustments with only one control wheel and limited buttons is very limiting. If you need a camera that can do more than just easy automatic quickly then one adjustment wheel isn't going to work very well. Any camera I use on a regular basis has 2 control wheels, otherwise I wouldn't buy it in the first place.
 
Last edited:
The problem (for both M43 & EOS-M) us that Canon own small SL1/SL2 dsle with its like of Sharp yet Affordable STM lens has neuter mirrorless appeal. M43 with a Zook lens isn't that much smaller than a Canon SL1/SL2 with a zoom lens.
Say what? Err...GM1/5 with kit lens...is quite a bit smaller I do believe...

http://j.mp/2xGgzqK
Indistinguishable.

3b0f6ffcf42e474a807648100a25afae.jpg.png
Not a real fair comparison. First the GM1 is no more (I have one and love it, but you can't buy one except used). There are no current m43 cameras that small (sadly). Also the 12-32 is pretty short on the long end at 64mm equiv. I have the GM1 and SL1 and the handling is hugely different. The SL1 is a far more capable camera. The GM1 is fiddly and hard to change settings on. There is no free lunch.

As I said ealrier, make the m43 camera a EM5, add the grip which it needs to handle like the canon and add a superzoom and there is a small size difference and almost no weight difference. The mirrorless size advantage goes away once yo get into the tel range so DSLRs in general are only at a size disadvantage for wide to normal FLs. Of course m43 has some size advantage from smaller sensor, but you pay for it with IQ loss.

Again no free lunch.

--
Jonathan
 
Last edited:
The M100 is more a cell phone competitor aimed at beginners. "The use of interchangeable lenses is a differentiator factor of the Canon EOS M-Series from most smartphone photography" - from Canon press release.

The EM10iii is positioned as an entry level camera for serious photography. The product descriptions are clearly focused at different users. The M100 has limited controls, with only one control wheel which makes it usability more limited. The EM10iii has a more complete set of controls that make it much more suited as an entry level camera for someone that is a more experienced photographer

These cameras will appeal to different audiences. Image quality will be affected more by lenses than the difference in sensors.
That's what I would think too, but Olympus highlighting their improvement of AUTO and AP modes, while removing enthusiast features like remove flash triggering, making bracketing only accessible in the AP mode with program exposure control, and removing customisability in assigning features to Fn buttons, makes me think that Olympus isn't sure who this camera is for.
I think that the E-M10iii is very much having a bob each way by Olympus - simple enough to be attractive to new basic-level users but complex enough to be used as a serious camera. But not slick enough to have very freature which might make it a real rival to the top of the line priced E-M1ii.

Unfortunately the E-M10iii has already had the kiss of death placed on it by being seen by reviewers as a basic camera for basic users. The same sort of categorisation that the GM series suffered from: the camera as second string, backup, or placed in very large pockets (effectively: a toy).

If this is the case than those basic level users are going to baulk at the asking price.

Strangely it might be thought that the E-M10iii falls right into the same type bracket as the Panasonic GX85 and G85 and these cameras are not being categorised as "basic-user, second rate, pocketable, backup, ...."

Graphical easy-user interface to modes does not send out the message that the intended use is anything other than the very basic. It is likely that most of these cameras will be bought and then used on "Auto-only" just as the reviews will have pronounced ....
 
The only point I wished to raise was that a clean apparently simple interface should not equate to 'novice'. I was trained as a designer and learned quite quickly that a far more effort, thinking and skill goes into making things appear simple than it does to make things seem complex.

The old saying never judge a book by it's cover springs to mind. And one more thing that springs to mind is the pack mentality of many reviewers. I have seen it in many areas and especially in motoring and racing bikes. The end result is usually a device that in general reviewers rave about, yet in practical use no one can handle.

It was just much simpler for me to point to Leica as an example.
 
make the m43 camera a EM5, add the grip which it needs to handle like the canon and add a superzoom
If you require camera A to be close in size to camera B, then require bolt-ons to be added in order to make them even closer, then *of course* they're going to end up the same size. :D But you don't need the m4/3 camera to be an E-M5, and you don't need to add any bolt-ons. You can, if you like. The reality is that m4/3 cameras come in different sizes and shapes. That is a strength, not a weakness.
 
Last edited:
2 years "fairly recently"?

Okay.... What is then "recently" and "not so recently"?
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top