Full-framer logic

Great Bustard wrote:

Tommi K1 wrote:

Okapi001 wrote:

Fun 4 all wrote:

Most of the time M43 does provide the IQ shooters want. But there are some times when people need more and that is what FF is for. But it is a relatively small amount of the time.

Sure, but you need good and fast lenses if you want to take advantage of the larger sensor. It's the same problem with mirrorless medium format cameras, Fuji and Hasselblad. If you don't have proper lenses, you cannot take full advantage of larger sensor.

Exposure is shutter speed as well, not just the aperture and sensor size....

Sensor size has nothing to do with exposure.

Says a man who continually talks about how sensor matters in total light gathering  and how using scissors to cut a print smaller is same as throwing light away.

You don't need fast lens to get benefits ie. landscape where you can use 1/30 or 1/60 shutter speed instead 1/1250 or 1/2000.

Does anyone argue otherwise?

Yes. Unless you want to make strawman arguments.

Same thing is with the f/4 or f/5.6 lenses when you can use flashes to do the work.

Flash, however, does alter the lighting of the scene and flash is not always possible. This is like saying you don't need a 600mm lens because you can just use a 50mm lens and get closer.

Strawman argument.

Exposure isn't just the camera but it is as well the scene illumination.

The exposure is determined entirely by:

• The scene luminance
• The relative aperture of the lens (more properly, the t-stop of the lens)
• The exposure time

Good.

• Illumination.
• Focal length
• Aperture
• Exposure time.

Now you agree with me, while you have in past disagreed.

The problem is the people who is continually arguing for "identical photograph" like a single method would be only correct way.

Who argues for an "identical photograph"? It certainly isn't proponents of Equivalence, 'cause what Equivalence says is:

You continually repeat that "for identical photograph" you need same perspective, same FOV, Same DOF, Same Shutter Speed and Same Noise.

That is "Identical Photograph". on the basis of a *choice* the photographer made.

The point of photography is making photos. As such, one doesn't choose the particular system to get photos which are equivalent to another system. A person chooses a particular system for the best balance of the factors that matter to the them, such as price, size, weight, IQ, DOF range, AF, build, etc..

Good, you have started to learn... The point of owning and using camera is to get photos. Not to argue what has larger sensor, what gathers how much light or what is noisier or not. A final test is to get the photos for the real world usage to get them to their output. Not run tests, charts, pixel peep in full resolution etc. If someone wants to get photos to family photo album where majority photos are 4x6" or if the photos are going to be a 2x3m size, then there is no reason to evaluate them on the screen but view them as on the print in final format. If the photo is never being to be printed and never being looked than on the mobile device, there is no reason to pixel peep on large screen.

Everything else is just strawman arguments. Equivalence is just a mother of strawman argument why a gear X is worse/better than Y.

Like every portrait is needed to be with narrow DOF or blurred background is the quality stamp for sports and wildlife photography, or low noise is the quality requirement etc.

Just how many straw man arguments are you going to present?

None, unlike you.

You have in past repeated how the shallow DOF is the ultimate measurement for good photograph, even with your own samples, you can build as many strawmans you want.... Go read the forums, people arguing how the great subject separation is very important feature in sports photography or wildlife photography. And how the noise needs to be minimized etc.

I just tell what even the DPR is full in the different forums and threads.

Here on m4/3 side may want to see something like 17mm f/1.2 so they can separate the people on streets and get low noise. How a 75mm f/1.2 would be awesome portrait lens for separation and low noise. How a truly ISO 100 or ISO 50 4/3" sensor would be needed to get the noise down....

Those are weekly comments, dreams, wishes etc.

You can argue that those doesn't exist and try to claim it is strawman argument, but those are happening.

All those are nothing else than gear heads lies to itself to deny the creativity and acceptance of it itself. Easier to blame the gear "If I just would had the FF, I would had a masterpiece!"

Find a link and quote where anyone has said or implied that.

Really? Find me a photography forum where no one has never implied that... Go and look ie. the Sony A9 threads.... Time after time there comes how you need the FF sensor and fast lenses to get the shot and if there is even f/5.6 lens only for FF it is not good but f/4 is needed, applied the same rules as equivalence preachers apply.

You see that when people come here to ask "I am split up between m4/3 and Fuji APS-C..." and you can read how suddenly it becomes to similar thing. Go elsewhere and it is "APS-C vs FF" etc.

You know all that, as you have participated in those.

Often it looks like people are grabbing the camera and saying:

"Today I am going to make a two masterpieces and get my name to hall of fame as long I follow the rules:

• Narrow DOF
• ETTR
• Fastest possible shutter speed
• Lowest possible ISO"

See isn't it easy to go out and do the masterpieces? That you can translate to shopping list:

1. Get the lowest noise FF sensor
2. Buy the "fastest possible lenses"

Isn't it simple? You walk to the store and you say those two requirement and they will hand you what you want. Then you will go and apply the rules above and you are creating masterpieces no time!

It takes no great skill to erect straw man arguments and then shoot them down.

When you stop doing strawman arguments, I can stop shooting them down.

Perhaps I should start a thread saying, "All mFT photographers think that there's never a use for shallow DOF and noise never matters" yadda, yadda, yadda. But that would be senseless trolling, wouldn't it?

You are trolling, you know it and every your fan knows it. And they love you for that.