Will the A9 actually be a "wakeup call" for Sony?

Started Apr 20, 2017 | Discussions thread
havoc315 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,408
Re: Such Certainties

em jo photo wrote:

havoc315 wrote:

em jo photo wrote:

havoc315 wrote:

em jo photo wrote:

A Owens wrote:

em jo photo wrote:

L Copps wrote:

The Nikon 1 lenses were also slow and way inferior to DX and FX lenses. Nikon 1 was a second class system. Other 1" systems like the Sony RX-100 smoked it.

No one's defending Nikon 1.

Except, wait! I am! In a strange and non-obvious way! Not because the 1 V3 is a particularly good camera or a viable system, but because it demonstrated, 3 years ago, that Nikon could deliver today's headline A9 features (20 FPS with full-tracking autofocus, 1/16000 silent global electronic shutter with minimal rolling) in a mirrorless platform.

It is the readout speed of the new sensor which makes all the innovations of the new Sony possible. The question is whether Nikon can get access to this sensor technology and how they will implement the innovations made possible by it.

Nikon doesn't need the the new sensor technology to compete with stills. They hit the mirrorless speed and AF targets in 2014 without it. And if you don't mind the crop, and can live with lower bitrates or fewer frame rates, they've shown us they don't need it for 4K video, either.

No they didn't...... That 2014 readout speed was for a 1" sensor --- significantly less data than a full frame sensor.

Number of pixels and bits per pixel = data. What does the size of the die those silicon photodiodes are on have to do with it?

A 1" sensor, 20 MP at 12 bits per pixel, delivers the exact same data footprint as a 135 sensor with 20 MP, reporting 12 bits per pixel.

In 2014, Nikon was hitting the mark with 18.3 megapixels at 12 bits per pixel. That's the data the camera has to run--doesn't matter that it came from a 1" die.

In 2017, Sony is trying to ooooo-and-ahhhh us all to death with those same speed targets, processing 24 megapixels at 12 bits per pixel. Doesn't matter that it came from a 135-size die.

They aren't hedging. They simply still have a-mount customers, so they are selling to those customers.

Why not just push SLT customers to the purportedly better A9 you're going to release in just another few months? There's a lens adapter; we're told it works wonderfully (fine print?) Those customers had already been waiting nearly 5 years for a new camera body. What's another five months?

They have pushed the vast majority of their customers.  Some won't go-- so they can make a few bucks selling them a99ii.   Remember-- they are no different than Canon customers.  Their lenses work with a99ii, just like Canon customers do.  But ultimately, they have never been e-mount customers.  These are people with deep lens investments, and they like the ergonomics of a traditional dSLR body.

No--- transferring data from a small sensor is very very different than a large sensor.

How is it different?

Seriously, man: how does the size of the die change data transfer? Tell us. Explain it. You're so sure, so educate us.

I honestly wanna know! Assuming the same transistor architecture, the same pixel count, and the same bit sample size, how does a larger die size make data transfer "very very different?"

I'm not going to give you an engineering lesson.   I'll simply tell you that you're wayyyyyyyy off

Why do you think it wasn't done before now?!?

It wasn't done because it wasn't better. It may still not be.

lol... it's vastly superior.  Take your head out of the sand... take a look at the early reports of the camera.   How is a total lack of VF blackout not better than blackout? How is vibration free not better than vibration impacted photos?

Is 20FPS at 12 bits, shot with EVF ergonomics (A9) better than 12FPS at 14 bits, shot with OVF ergonomics (Nikon D5)?

That's a question that doesn't have an absolute answer. Maybe it's what you want . . . but is it what NFL sideline shooters want? Is it what the press at the Olympics wants?

Honestly, I suspect NFL and Olympic press shooters would never even consider what we're talking about. They care more about lenses than anything else. The vast majority of the photographs they're pushing out are JPEG chosen on-the-fly, anyway.

What they're really looking for are fast, long tele primes. 200 f/2. 300 f/2.8. 400, 500, 600 f/4.

I think the A9 is more or less DOA for its target market until those lenses appear. Camera geeks everywhere will drool, but you'll never see one on an NFL sideline until there's an FE 500 f/4.

You know what's awfully interesting about the brand-spankin' new A99ii? There are 300mm f/2.8 and 500mm f/4 Sony Alpha lenses available for it. What a curious coincidence, with Sony announcing professional support and event equipment presence. For all of this week's hoopla, let's bet 5$ that those event support tables lay out just as many A99ii bodies as A9s.

Not a hedge, you say?

If it was sooooo easy, then why wasn't everyone doing it 3 years ago?

Nikon was doing it three years ago. That's my point. And dude, I win the point until you explain to us all exactly how a larger sensor die complicates data readout.

You think Nikon hasn't made a full-frame mirrorless speed-demon camera because they can't.

But just throw off the wet blanket for a minute and look around: you'll see plenty of evidence that they can, and you'll also notice ample reasons why, perhaps, they haven't wanted to!

Because they aren't certain that such a camera is better. Because they aren't certain that such a camera is what sports photographers really want.

The A99ii's release, just a few months ago, suggests that Sony isn't sure, either.

Shows how little you know or understand about the a99ii --- there are MORE sports lenses and telephoto lenses that have compatibility with the a9 (all Canon, Sony, Tamron, Sigma, etc)

The 12fps mode on the a99ii is exceptionally limited -- Its practically a gimmick.  And the VF slideshow combined with other limitations, no sports photographer would ever consider the a99ii very seriously.

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