Does no one still use AI and AIS lenses?

D

Doug Greenberg

Guest
Clearly, there is controversy surrounding the announcement of the new D7500 dx DSLR. Much of the furor relates to the change from two to one SD card slot. But to me, the most disappointing omission is the lack of the AI metering pin which allows non-CPU lenses to utilize through the lens metering. This feature was included in all previous cameras in the D7xxx series, as well as in all pro model cameras.

I have been surprised that so few people seem to care about this omission. "Get with the times," say many of them. Ok. Maybe not that many of us still own and use AI and AIS lenses, but the context here is that Nikon has supposedly prided itself on the fact that almost all lenses produced over the pasty fifty years or more are still usable on modern camera bodies. This in contrast with Canon, which rendered all of its older lenses obsolete when it introduced the EF lens mount in 1987.

Some people have argued that this omission is a nod "to the engineers," who are asked to include more and more features into cameras while keeping costs down. I suspect it was not the engineers but the bean counters who made this decision to save some money (how much? I cannot imagiine this is a hugely costly feature) so that the camera will be more profitable.

Personally, I still own and use a few AI/AIS lenses of shorter focal lengths, including my original 50 f1.4 from my 1968 Nikon F, a 105 f2.5 AI, and a 24mm f2.8. More importantly, however, I have been able to save money as a bird photographer by making use of AI/AIS long lenses, including a 400mm f3.5, 600mm f5.6, and most recently, an 800mm f5.6. These lenses have terrific glass and yet cost a fraction of the newer, auto-everything lenses.

But I guess it's only me who still uses these non-CPU lenses.

Doug Greenberg, Berkeley, California
 
I don't believe Nikon's 'thinking' has changed at all. They have always provided Ais compatibility on only their 'flagship' DX model. In the days of D100/200/300, only these DX models were Ai/Ais compatible. The introduction of the D7xxx series, intermediate in specification between the previous D90 and D300, indicated an intention not to continue the D300 line, and Ai/Ais compatibility was included in the D7xxx line. Now that Nikon has decided to update the D100/200/300 line after all, with the D500, the D7xxx line is no longer the 'flagship' DX model, and henceforth will be designed more like successors to the D90 line. The D7xxx line, as we had come to know it, is gone.
An excellent assessment.
 
Ok, the D7xxx line is gone, but they named this camera the D7500 anyway. How much sense does that make? If they wanted to make clear that the introduction of the D500 is a game-changer in terms of the traits/functions of the existing camera lines, maybe they should have named the new camera the D6500 or D8500. As it stands, the bottom line is that in updating what certainly appears to be an ongoing camera line they eliminated features (thinking of the dual SD slot, as well) that had been consistently included and were important to some people. Bad move, I think. But yes, I will get over it :-).

Doug Greenberg, Berkeley, California
 
I don't believe Nikon's 'thinking' has changed at all. They have always provided Ais compatibility on only their 'flagship' DX model. In the days of D100/200/300, only these DX models were Ai/Ais compatible. The introduction of the D7xxx series, intermediate in specification between the previous D90 and D300, indicated an intention not to continue the D300 line, and Ai/Ais compatibility was included in the D7xxx line. Now that Nikon has decided to update the D100/200/300 line after all, with the D500, the D7xxx line is no longer the 'flagship' DX model, and henceforth will be designed more like successors to the D90 line. The D7xxx line, as we had come to know it, is gone.
An excellent assessment.
That would be much better received had it come from Nikon.

I think Al Pacino said it best, in Scent of a Woman, when he espoused

"I'm in the dark here"

youtube.com/watch?v=-kN28ppAtAE

Surely someone from Nikons PR department could have whipped something up for us for the equivalent price of a couple of staff discount SP910 speed lights and saved some of us a lot of angst.
 
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I own 2 of them. One is a family heirloom 50/1.2 that I almost never use.

The other is a fisheye 16/2.8. I wanted a cheap fisheye for FX, I think I paid 200 for it, and I figured how hard could it be to focus - hint, it really wasn't. I do use it a lot. And I like that I don't even have to think about it when I use it. I pretty much just set it at f5.6 and infinity focus and its good for my purposes.

AI on DX is not really a thing for me.

Of course I don't criticize those for whom it is.
 
Now that Nikon has decided to update the D100/200/300 line after all, with the D500, the D7xxx line is no longer the 'flagship' DX model, and henceforth will be designed more like successors to the D90 line. The D7xxx line, as we had come to know it, is gone.
The main reason that people seem to be upset is that the D7000-D7200 range had this capability. As you say, if we regard these as outliers, simply due to Nikon not having a D300s replacement ready, then AI/AIS capability would apparently belong to the pro models.

However, the D750 isn't a pro model, buthas AI/AIS indexing - so on this basis we'd expect its replacement to lose the facility as well.

It simply seems unreasonable to me that any Nikon body over £1k should be missing this facility.
 
Ok, the D7xxx line is gone, but they named this camera the D7500 anyway. How much sense does that make? If they wanted to make clear that the introduction of the D500 is a game-changer in terms of the traits/functions of the existing camera lines, maybe they should have named the new camera the D6500 or D8500. As it stands, the bottom line is that in updating what certainly appears to be an ongoing camera line they eliminated features (thinking of the dual SD slot, as well) that had been consistently included and were important to some people. Bad move, I think. But yes, I will get over it :-).

Doug Greenberg, Berkeley, California
Sure, but added others. Like 8fps. That's pretty damn sweet in this price range. That beats the d600 and d750.

I'm sure it was a bit of a juggling act; they identified a segment they wanted to target, determined features that were important to that segment, then teased out how they could make an enthusiast camera that did not outshine the d500. I imagine that last bit had as much to do with the loss of the second SD card and AI-S compatibility as anything else.

Where there's overlap in the the d7500-targeted segment and the d500-targeted segment, Nikon is hoping people will bump up to the d500.

If I were a d7200 shooter who shot a lot of sports, that framerate alone would have me seriously considering this camera.
 
I still use a 400mm f/5.6 ais. I wouldn't buy a camera that wasn't compatible with the old lenses since I do have a few.
 
Nikon has supposedly prided itself on the fact that almost all lenses produced over the pasty fifty years or more are still usable on modern camera bodies. This in contrast with Canon, which rendered all of its older lenses obsolete when it introduced the EF lens mount in 1987.
Wow, half the people on this forum were not even born when Canon took that step, which in retrospect left them in a good position today.

Contemporary relevance is limited. Like saying 'In 1968 Chevrolet changed the Powerglide transmission in such a way that you could no longer push start the car, which you could previously.'
 
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That is a big time deal breaker for me. I don't like what this signals, is the in body focus motor the next to go? I know this instantly knocks the D7500 from consideration as an "upgrade" to my old D7000. The dual card slots were useful for me in a couple of situations, the aperture feeler is a must have for me, I love my 105mm f2.5 too much to give it up!
 
Nikon has supposedly prided itself on the fact that almost all lenses produced over the pasty fifty years or more are still usable on modern camera bodies. This in contrast with Canon, which rendered all of its older lenses obsolete when it introduced the EF lens mount in 1987.
Wow, half the people on this forum were not even born when Canon took that step, which in retrospect left them in a good position today.

Contemporary relevance is limited. Like saying 'In 1968 Chevrolet changed the Powerglide transmission in such a way that you could no longer push start the car, which you could previously.'
I always thought that after Nikon started changing to G and other variations that they should have ripped the bandaid and just go with a new mount. Would have helped their bottom line now
 
I doubt that a significant portion of the potential market for a D7200 replacement uses Ai and AiS lenses. Ai lenses, despite some still being available new, are clearly legacy lenses and were intended for use on 35mm film bodies. And yet I would expect that a higher proportion of potential users of the D7x00 line would use Ai lenses than would potential users of the D3x00 and D5x00 lines. I can understand the disappointment of those users who have well-loved manual focus lenses that they would like to meter with in A mode,

I think the obvious reason for the removal of the Ai tab and second card slot and the absence of an announced battery grip as well as the retention of the 51 point AF system is to clarify product line differentiation. Nikon is sending a clear message that DX shooters who want pro features should buy their pro DX camera - the D500.

The removal of these few pro features doesn't put the D7500 in the same class as the D5x00 line. The D7500 still retains all the enthusiast features that differentiate the D7x00 line from the D5x00 line. Rather, dual slots, Ai tab and grips have all been features reserved for the top DX model. That was the D7x00 line from when that line was introduced until last year, but now it is the D500.

If, on the day before the D7500 specs were announced, you had polled Nikon users and asked them to identify the features which differentiated the D7x00 line from the D5x00 lines, I doubt very many would have mentioned the Ai tab. More would mention the AF motor and the dual card slots but I think the most commonly mentioned features would be the second command dial, the more complete set of control buttons, the pentaprism VF, the better AF and metering systems, and max shutter and flash sync speeds.

This is not the first time Nikon has removed features from a model line, while improving other features. The D5500 lost the D5300's built-in GPS. The D3400 lost flash power, sensor cleaning and a mic jack.
 
and I've never owned an AI or AIS lens. Doesn't bother me that I don't have a metering pin. Especially on a camera I'm not likely to buy anyway.

Want to use those old lenses? Get a retro-look DF.
 
Of course I'm using my AIS lenses - daily - adapted to a Sony A7R2. What a great way to focus the 50/1.2 at 1.2 exactly where I want it to. Couldn't care less about the D7500's inability, or any further Nikon DSLR.

Cheers, Holger.
 
Clearly, there is controversy surrounding the announcement of the new D7500 dx DSLR. Much of the furor relates to the change from two to one SD card slot. But to me, the most disappointing omission is the lack of the AI metering pin which allows non-CPU lenses to utilize through the lens metering. This feature was included in all previous cameras in the D7xxx series, as well as in all pro model cameras.

I have been surprised that so few people seem to care about this omission. "Get with the times," say many of them. Ok. Maybe not that many of us still own and use AI and AIS lenses, but the context here is that Nikon has supposedly prided itself on the fact that almost all lenses produced over the pasty fifty years or more are still usable on modern camera bodies. This in contrast with Canon, which rendered all of its older lenses obsolete when it introduced the EF lens mount in 1987.

Some people have argued that this omission is a nod "to the engineers," who are asked to include more and more features into cameras while keeping costs down. I suspect it was not the engineers but the bean counters who made this decision to save some money (how much? I cannot imagiine this is a hugely costly feature) so that the camera will be more profitable.

Personally, I still own and use a few AI/AIS lenses of shorter focal lengths, including my original 50 f1.4 from my 1968 Nikon F, a 105 f2.5 AI, and a 24mm f2.8. More importantly, however, I have been able to save money as a bird photographer by making use of AI/AIS long lenses, including a 400mm f3.5, 600mm f5.6, and most recently, an 800mm f5.6. These lenses have terrific glass and yet cost a fraction of the newer, auto-everything lenses.

But I guess it's only me who still uses these non-CPU lenses.

Doug Greenberg, Berkeley, California
I own and use a few different AIS Nikkor lenses including the 28mm F2.8 AIS (latest version with CRC correction), 105mm F2.5 AIS (which I have just spent all morning today on stripping down, cleaning and (phew!) re-assembling successfully) and also a 105mm F4 AIS micro.

All 3 of these lenses are excellent optics in their own ways. I use the 28mm quite frequently (usually with a circular polariser) and is one of my favourite lenses for landscapes. The 105mm F4 micro is a very, very special lens, very rarely talked about - beautifully engineered with silky smooth fine focus control, fabulous optical quality both as a micro lens and also at distance - great for doing stitched landscapes for example. Also takes the old TC-301 2x converter really well making a very nice, very sharp 210 F8 micro. Now that I finally have my 105mm F2.5 nicely cleaned up and working like new again I expect I'll be putting that to more use (I used to find that lens was also great for stitched landscapes - not it's normal application of course)!

I used to have an old 600mm F4 AIS lens which I sold quite a few years ago when I got a well-used but optically mint 500mm F4 P lens which was so much more portable and optically better. I also use a small selection of modern AF lenses such as the Sigma 150-600 Sports, Sigma 150 F2.8 OS macro, Tokina 11-16 F2.8 AF, Nikon 60mm AFS micro etc and I have just taken delivery of a new Samyang 14mm F2.8 (fab full-frame extreme ultra wide at a bargain basement price). I am trying to save up enough for a Nikon 20mm AFS F1.8 !

All these lenses (except the Tokina) are full-frame so I think it makes sense to get the most out of them via a full-frame camera whenever possible. I currently use the D810 which I think is a great camera. I also have a D500 these days but I tend to keep my Sigma 150-600 more or less glued to that so the D810 does everything else - but Nikon do provide quite a few other choices of camera that work with these old lenses and in any case I have no plans to upgrade my cameras, both are working great, so personally it doesn't worry me - not yet anyway!

Frank
 
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It would be interesting to see a poll here with Q for Nikon shooters:

"Are you still using Nikkor AI/AIS lenses" ...and offer several possible answers:

- Never (I am FF shooter)

- Never (I am DX shooter)

- Yes, on my FX body

- Yes, on my DX body

- Yes, on my DX and FX bodies

Nothing scientific, but would get us some insight.

I just have no idea how to set up a poll.

So, anybody willing to start a poll about that obviously interesting matter?

Not sure if that poll should be placed in Nikon lens forum or in one of two Nikon DX cameras forums!?
 
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...

But I guess it's only me who still uses these non-CPU lenses.
Please don't cry. :-)

Your are not alone!

I still use these guys (or girls?) on my D800E:





14161024076_da14ce687c_o.jpg


200mm + 105mm + 135mm A(i)-S.

13997538750_5c074cffb4_o.jpg






Great material. High quality. Exceptional value for money. :-)
 
When I first got a camera (D300 back then) which could use AI/AIS lenses - I thought I would buy a bunch on the cheap and use them but it never happened. I tried a few 75-150mm f/3.5 series E, 300mm f/4.5 AIS & 105mm f/1.8, etc. I still have the 75-150mm but have not used it in a long time. I just find I like the modern conveniences - like at a minimum AF - but also VR. So in retrospect - not having AI/AIS support is not a deal breaker to me.
 
In late November, for Christmas. There will be a D7500e with dual SD, Ai pin and CPU indexing. Milk the marketing cow and aggravate the consumer. It's all good.
 

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