First 24MP APS-C sensor was more than 5 years ago

The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.
Yes, very interesting, isn't it? If the sensor is supposed to be the expensive part, why do high-end DSLR cameras still cost so much? Why don't they all cost about $200 to $300? I see no reason the "new" Nikon D500, with its 20 MP sensor, should cost $2,000 or even $1,000. Sony sold the A77 for $800 three years ago. Both shoot fast (though the A77 could shoot faster than today's new Nikon D500 can). Both have high quality screens on the back. Both are weather sealed. Nikon and Canon are somehow successfully fleecing photographers, and for some reason neither Sony or Pentax seem to have a significant affect on their prices.
Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count.
Actually it's two - 24 MP and 20 MP (i.e. the new Canon 7 D Mk II and the new Nikon D500).
Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities).
No, it is not the practical limit, because there is very good image quality produce with cameras that have sensors with far greater density (i.e. the 20 MP 1" sensors in the Panasonic FZ1000 and their ilk, as well as the Sony cameras with their 1" sensors). Even Nikon's 1" sensor of the V3, which is 18 MP, has a far greater density than a 24 MP APS-C sensor. The image quality from those cameras is excellent . . . though their lenses are purpose built.
Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?
I think that people do care about more MP, but not so many people do and there are no options, other than more expensive full-frame cameras, like the Nikon D810 and now the Canon 5 Ds and Sony A7r II. Obviously the Sony A7r II is selling well (it has 241 reviews at B&H already), and that is an indicator that people do indeed have an interest in spending more money to get more MP. Otherwise they would just buy the A7 II instead of the A7r II. In fact, the A7r II is almost twice the price of the A7 II, yet the A7r II has more than twice as many reviews. To me this indicates that there is a strong desire for more MP, but people are not getting what they want. I think it's sad and almost criminal.

Pentax needs to buy Samsung sensors. Unfortunately I think Pentax is often a follower, rather than a leader. Look how long it took them to make a full-frame camera. Look how long it took them to make a 24 MP camera. (I think they were the last APS-C size DSLR manufacturer to make one . . . except Sigma, who have never made one.)
Aside from purchasing a DP2M (just an experiment really), all my cameras are 16MP equivalent and below.

I was surprised when I realised I've been using 16MP for this length of time and feel no inclination to upgrade at all. 24MP calls me not one jot. I do plan to upgrade my Lumix G6 to a G7 when the prices/used prices fall to bargain basement level simply for the ergonomics but the image quality is identical to what I have now.

Threads on this forum indicate that people are still interested in ever-refining image quality but this seems to be a minority view these days.
This couldn't be further from the truth. Virtually nobody who doesn't want high image quality will spend the money to buy a big, heay, expensive, DSLR and lenses. The same goes for full-frame cameras. Most people buy those to get better quality, and they are selling better than ever.
Image quality everywhere seems to be sufficient for most people and the manufacturers themselves.
Of course it's "sufficient" for the manufacturers. They don't want to spend as much money on the cameras. They want to maximize profit. It's almost as if they're too stupid to realize what's going on with Sony and their 42 MP A7r II.
Not much pushing of the envelope any more aside perhaps from Sigma and the medium format suppliers.
Even the medium format suppliers haven't been pushing the envelope much. They apparently either can't afford to or they don't want to. They made 33 MP sensors ten years ago, and they have only barely tripled that, when they should have been doubling resolution every two years, which would put them at more than 200 MP by now. The way digital sensor resolution was growing between 2001 and 2006, there is no way that Pentax would have released an upgraded camera that had a sensor with only 25 % more megapixels. From 2010 to 2016 Pentax went from a 40 MP camera to a 50 MP camera. That's pathetic. The crazy thing is that people seem to think Pentax is still a good value. That shows how little pushing of the envelope there has been in the medium format market. It's no wonder medium format cameras haven't been selling much.

A real company (like Phase One) would upgrade sensor resolution more significantly. There's a reason Phase One is doing so well. They are the only company to provide a decent quality 100 MP camera with a decent line of lenses. If Hasselblad had pushed the envelope, they would not be making 50 MP cameras anymore. Instead, they would have a 120 MP camera, which would be twice the megapixels of their 60 MP camera, which they made years and years ago.

I wouldn't call Sigma's step up from 14.7 MP to 19.6 MP a "pushing of the envelope" . . . really. It took more than two or three years for that little upgrade . . . and it really was a small upgrade, when you compare the image file samples from the SD1 and sd Quattro. Finally Sigma is about to deliver a sensor bigger than APS-C. It's about time! Where is the 30 MP sensor? If Sigma REALLY wanted to push the envelope, they would have one by now. It's been five years since they made their 14.7 MP sensor and the SD1 camera to put it in. There is NO reason they should have not upgraded to a sensor with double the megapixels in that much time. They haven't even announced a camera that is double the megapixels of the SD1 yet.

"The SD1 was announced by Sigma at photokina 2010 on September 21, 2010. It was officially put on sale in May 2011 . . ." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_SD1#Sigma_SD1_Merrill
--
Scott Barton Kennelly
http://www.bigprintphotos.com
OK but if the demand really exists, why aren't pixels being pushed any more? It worked fine for a decade, why suddenly stop? I still go with my hypothesis that when more MP generated sales growth, you got more MP. Now we have reached a quality level where the mainstream buyer sees no advantage in more MP, won't pay for it, and so there is no pressure on manufacturers to develop their sensors. If Nikon could generate growth again by releasing a 50MP aps-c sensor, they would to steal Canon's lunch. But I would guess they think the investment would not generate the sales and isn't worth it. Instead, they are trying to con people into paying high prices for 35mm full frame cameras where the profit margins are still high even though the benefits (a fraction of an ISO level lower noise) aren't really there. The D500 is also high priced compared to a £280 D3300 which has more MP - it isn't MP that are selling cameras any more.

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmillier/
Obviously, it's possible to get very good images from even tiny sensors. My 41mp (38 used) phone camera (Nokia 808) takes excellent images. My 16 mp Nikon P900, even hand held at ridiculous focal lengths takes excellent images with a relatively tiny sensor. See image of bunny below at 800mm taken hand held from my idling car out the window. So applied to a 1.5x crop sensor the pixel count resolution could be huge. I suspect the reason we are not seeing higher resolution APS C is that the cost/performance would be compromised. We simply don't have fast enough processors to handle the huge amounts of data in a cost sensitive market...
Huh?

Sony made a camera five years ago that could shoot at 12 fps, yet Nikon has to make a more expensive camera today that operates slower with only a 20 MP sensor?!?

I think not. There is something else to it.
Olympus made a camera 17 years ago which could shoot at 15 fps (E100RS) - it's not the frames per second which is the issue, it's the amount of data which has to be processed in a huge file matrix. Why do you think Sigma has relatively slow load and processing on their large files? Do you really think it's because it's not possible to do it faster with the right technology? Of course it can be done. Phase One has a 100 mp sensor co-developed with Sony - but the electronics to handle this huge data load is way expensive. Sigma would price their products out of the market if they elected to use the same electronics which are in the Phase one. It's about cost and there is a huge price jump from what is being used commonly in cameras such as the Nikon D700/D7200, etc., and high end medium format. When you add 14 bit or higher plus huge file matrix size, it takes prodigious amounts of processing to get it done in the time period people are willing to wait.

Best regards,

Lin
Best regards,

Lin

Nikon P900 hand-held out window of idling vehicle at 800mm (143 mm x 5.6 crop factor = 800mm)

Nikon P900 hand-held out window of idling vehicle at 800mm (143 mm x 5.6 crop factor = 800mm)
--
Scott Barton Kennelly
http://www.bigprintphotos.com
 
The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.

Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count. Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities). Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?

Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmillier/
24MP was the mark where Nikon felt confident enough to deliver "nutella free Sensors" with their line of D7200 and similar, a step forward towards Foveon clarity.

While DP3M can deliver what D810 offers in term of resolution, some DR is missing when similar frames (with strong contrast) are compared, here is an area where Foveon can improve .(SD14 offers already a very good DR with very rich colors) we will see...
 
Olympus made a camera 17 years ago which could shoot at 15 fps (E100RS) - it's not the frames per second which is the issue, it's the amount of data which has to be processed in a huge file matrix. Why do you think Sigma has relatively slow load and processing on their large files? Do you really think it's because it's not possible to do it faster with the right technology? Of course it can be done. Phase One has a 100 mp sensor co-developed with Sony - but the electronics to handle this huge data load is way expensive. Sigma would price their products out of the market if they elected to use the same electronics which are in the Phase one. It's about cost and there is a huge price jump from what is being used commonly in cameras such as the Nikon D700/D7200, etc., and high end medium format. When you add 14 bit or higher plus huge file matrix size, it takes prodigious amounts of processing to get it done in the time period people are willing to wait.

Best regards,

Lin
I do understand how it works, and processors have not stopped doubling in capacity/speed every 18 months, so three years after the Sony A77 was produced a 50 MP APS-C sensor camera that captures 12 fps of 14 bit color should have easily been possible . . . and considering the fact that a 30 MP sensor would be 6 MP less than the three year old Nikon D800 and only 6 MP more than the 5 year old 24 MP Sony A77, I think Nikon or Canon could have made a 30 MP APS-C sensor camera by now, which could shoot at 10 fps. They haven't though. Instead Nikon has gone backward, and instead of making a 24 MP camera that can shoot at 10 fps they made one that is only 20 MP. I think that's pathetic.

Still, for people who have refused to downgrade to the D7000 series body, it's an upgrade from their D300s. But why did Nikon take so long to make it? I think it may have been something they were working out with Canon. Canon made the 7D, and Nikon made the D300s. Both sat there for years, with no upgrade available, except to move up to a full-frame camera or buy a cheaper camera that didn't have such a robust body, if someone wanted higher resolution (i.e. the Nikon D7000 or eventually the D7100 . . . or the Canon 70 D, or eventually the Rebel T6i).

Effectively, it seems the camera makers made a decision to stop the megapixel race. Even Sony seemed to get in on it, limiting their cameras to 24 MP (even their full-frame cameras). I think consumers would have continued to buy, if the megapixel race had continued. Maybe I'm wrong though. It could be that Nikon and Canon found that upgrading to more megapixels did not have much affect on the market, and that other things were driving sales. Certainly Nikon did upgrade to the D800, and that was a step up that was followed by Sony with their A7r a year or so later.

Instead of major increases in resolution we saw more weather seals and video features added to cameras. Nikon and Canon both started making cameras with fold-out screens and features like Wi-Fi (most new bodies) and GPS (Nikon's D5300 and Canon's new 7D Mk II). I think it would be very difficult to tell what was responsible for the end of the megapixel race though, given changes in the World economy at the time the megapixel race ended. We have been in a time of little change in resolution, during a time of little change in economic development. In the next economic boom it could be that we will see another megapixel race happen.

Maybe not. It may have more to do with lenses than anything else, and that might be the real reason Nikon and Canon decided not to exceed 24 MP in the world of APS-C sensors. Certainly even the 50 MP Canon 5 Ds, with its full-frame sensor, does not exceed the density of their 24 MP sensor in the T6i. I do believe that a 30 MP APS-C sensor would have benefits. I think we will see benefits with the best lenses up to about 100 MP in the APS-C world and far beyond 200 MP in the full-frame world (a full-frame sensor with the same density as a 100 MP APS-C sensor would be about 250 MP). This is based on what we can see today in the benefits of upgrading to a 20 MP sensor in the 1" world. (i.e. an upgrade from a Nikon V2, which is 14 MP, to the Nikon V3, which is 18 MP)

Ultimately I believe that higher resolution sensors that allow us to make images with more megapixels are coming . . . but it has slowed down, and the megapixel race seems to be over. It seems like companies have decided not to push the resolution limits much. I believe there are probably multiple reasons for this. It could be that consumers don't care about having 30 MP cameras, if they already have 20 MP cameras. It could be largely because the lenses in Canon and Nikon's stables are not capable of resolving enough detail for people to see significant benefits at higher resolutions. It could be that processors are not being developed that can handle the date. But I doubt it's any of those reasons. After-all, Samsung was able to make a 28 MP camera in a very small form factor, and they were a new player. Nikon was able to make a 36 MP sensor and an 18 MP camera that could shoot 60 fps (V3), with a 1" sensor. Cut that in half and you could have a 36 MP camera that shoots at 15 fps. Computer processors are continuing to get faster, and the processors in those cameras were plenty fast enough to make a 30 MP APS-C camera. I believe it's probably more about saving money and maximizing profit than anything else, and in order to do that the three big companies have to decide together. I believe Canon, Nikon, and Sony are probably breaking anti-trust laws, just as so many companies do. Did you see the links I posted about that before? Here are some more:



 
I suspect that the manufacturers are only ready (the way they see market demand) to spend so much on a sub-135-frame-sized sensor. Above that amount, probably about $2000 for a body at the moment, they expect the buyers to pick a 135-frame sensor instead.

So we see a proliferation of MP counts in 135-frame, and standardization in smaller sensors.
 
24MP on APSC is quite high pixel density, I think it's a limit, simply beacuse of lens. Higher pixel density is not useless due to bayer mosaic, it can be an improvment on IQ, and of course there are different lenses and it's an analog part so there is no such thing that a glass can deliver 24MP pixel perfectly but not 25MP.

Higher MP require larger sensor. And sensor sizes are no different, same as 5 yeras ago.

But the demand is there for higher resolution. For me 12Mp was plenty when I had 24" FHD display. Even my Nikon D50 photos looked quite good. But now I have a 40" UHD display and my DP2m is barely enough. The ricoh GR looks good but obviously lacks of resolution. D50 is just not enough and small sensor compacts, phones look like sh*t. This display shines with foveon images or 36Mp and higher bayer images.

I'd like to go for at least 36mm, but not affordable for me. So I'm happy with my DP2m for landscape photography and Ricoh GR for anything else.
 
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The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.
Yes, very interesting, isn't it? If the sensor is supposed to be the expensive part, why do high-end DSLR cameras still cost so much? Why don't they all cost about $200 to $300? I see no reason the "new" Nikon D500, with its 20 MP sensor, should cost $2,000 or even $1,000. Sony sold the A77 for $800 three years ago. Both shoot fast (though the A77 could shoot faster than today's new Nikon D500 can). Both have high quality screens on the back. Both are weather sealed. Nikon and Canon are somehow successfully fleecing photographers, and for some reason neither Sony or Pentax seem to have a significant affect on their prices.
Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count.
Actually it's two - 24 MP and 20 MP (i.e. the new Canon 7 D Mk II and the new Nikon D500).
Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities).
No, it is not the practical limit, because there is very good image quality produce with cameras that have sensors with far greater density (i.e. the 20 MP 1" sensors in the Panasonic FZ1000 and their ilk, as well as the Sony cameras with their 1" sensors). Even Nikon's 1" sensor of the V3, which is 18 MP, has a far greater density than a 24 MP APS-C sensor. The image quality from those cameras is excellent . . . though their lenses are purpose built.
Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?
I think that people do care about more MP, but not so many people do and there are no options, other than more expensive full-frame cameras, like the Nikon D810 and now the Canon 5 Ds and Sony A7r II. Obviously the Sony A7r II is selling well (it has 241 reviews at B&H already), and that is an indicator that people do indeed have an interest in spending more money to get more MP. Otherwise they would just buy the A7 II instead of the A7r II. In fact, the A7r II is almost twice the price of the A7 II, yet the A7r II has more than twice as many reviews. To me this indicates that there is a strong desire for more MP, but people are not getting what they want. I think it's sad and almost criminal.

Pentax needs to buy Samsung sensors. Unfortunately I think Pentax is often a follower, rather than a leader. Look how long it took them to make a full-frame camera. Look how long it took them to make a 24 MP camera. (I think they were the last APS-C size DSLR manufacturer to make one . . . except Sigma, who have never made one.)
Aside from purchasing a DP2M (just an experiment really), all my cameras are 16MP equivalent and below.

I was surprised when I realised I've been using 16MP for this length of time and feel no inclination to upgrade at all. 24MP calls me not one jot. I do plan to upgrade my Lumix G6 to a G7 when the prices/used prices fall to bargain basement level simply for the ergonomics but the image quality is identical to what I have now.

Threads on this forum indicate that people are still interested in ever-refining image quality but this seems to be a minority view these days.
This couldn't be further from the truth. Virtually nobody who doesn't want high image quality will spend the money to buy a big, heay, expensive, DSLR and lenses. The same goes for full-frame cameras. Most people buy those to get better quality, and they are selling better than ever.
Image quality everywhere seems to be sufficient for most people and the manufacturers themselves.
Of course it's "sufficient" for the manufacturers. They don't want to spend as much money on the cameras. They want to maximize profit. It's almost as if they're too stupid to realize what's going on with Sony and their 42 MP A7r II.
Not much pushing of the envelope any more aside perhaps from Sigma and the medium format suppliers.
Even the medium format suppliers haven't been pushing the envelope much. They apparently either can't afford to or they don't want to. They made 33 MP sensors ten years ago, and they have only barely tripled that, when they should have been doubling resolution every two years, which would put them at more than 200 MP by now. The way digital sensor resolution was growing between 2001 and 2006, there is no way that Pentax would have released an upgraded camera that had a sensor with only 25 % more megapixels. From 2010 to 2016 Pentax went from a 40 MP camera to a 50 MP camera. That's pathetic. The crazy thing is that people seem to think Pentax is still a good value. That shows how little pushing of the envelope there has been in the medium format market. It's no wonder medium format cameras haven't been selling much.

A real company (like Phase One) would upgrade sensor resolution more significantly. There's a reason Phase One is doing so well. They are the only company to provide a decent quality 100 MP camera with a decent line of lenses. If Hasselblad had pushed the envelope, they would not be making 50 MP cameras anymore. Instead, they would have a 120 MP camera, which would be twice the megapixels of their 60 MP camera, which they made years and years ago.

I wouldn't call Sigma's step up from 14.7 MP to 19.6 MP a "pushing of the envelope" . . . really. It took more than two or three years for that little upgrade . . . and it really was a small upgrade, when you compare the image file samples from the SD1 and sd Quattro. Finally Sigma is about to deliver a sensor bigger than APS-C. It's about time! Where is the 30 MP sensor? If Sigma REALLY wanted to push the envelope, they would have one by now. It's been five years since they made their 14.7 MP sensor and the SD1 camera to put it in. There is NO reason they should have not upgraded to a sensor with double the megapixels in that much time. They haven't even announced a camera that is double the megapixels of the SD1 yet.

"The SD1 was announced by Sigma at photokina 2010 on September 21, 2010. It was officially put on sale in May 2011 . . ." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_SD1#Sigma_SD1_Merrill
 
The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.
Yes, very interesting, isn't it? If the sensor is supposed to be the expensive part, why do high-end DSLR cameras still cost so much? Why don't they all cost about $200 to $300? I see no reason the "new" Nikon D500, with its 20 MP sensor, should cost $2,000 or even $1,000. Sony sold the A77 for $800 three years ago. Both shoot fast (though the A77 could shoot faster than today's new Nikon D500 can). Both have high quality screens on the back. Both are weather sealed. Nikon and Canon are somehow successfully fleecing photographers, and for some reason neither Sony or Pentax seem to have a significant affect on their prices.
Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count.
Actually it's two - 24 MP and 20 MP (i.e. the new Canon 7 D Mk II and the new Nikon D500).
Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities).
No, it is not the practical limit, because there is very good image quality produce with cameras that have sensors with far greater density (i.e. the 20 MP 1" sensors in the Panasonic FZ1000 and their ilk, as well as the Sony cameras with their 1" sensors). Even Nikon's 1" sensor of the V3, which is 18 MP, has a far greater density than a 24 MP APS-C sensor. The image quality from those cameras is excellent . . . though their lenses are purpose built.
Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?
I think that people do care about more MP, but not so many people do and there are no options, other than more expensive full-frame cameras, like the Nikon D810 and now the Canon 5 Ds and Sony A7r II. Obviously the Sony A7r II is selling well (it has 241 reviews at B&H already), and that is an indicator that people do indeed have an interest in spending more money to get more MP. Otherwise they would just buy the A7 II instead of the A7r II. In fact, the A7r II is almost twice the price of the A7 II, yet the A7r II has more than twice as many reviews. To me this indicates that there is a strong desire for more MP, but people are not getting what they want. I think it's sad and almost criminal.

Pentax needs to buy Samsung sensors. Unfortunately I think Pentax is often a follower, rather than a leader. Look how long it took them to make a full-frame camera. Look how long it took them to make a 24 MP camera. (I think they were the last APS-C size DSLR manufacturer to make one . . . except Sigma, who have never made one.)
Aside from purchasing a DP2M (just an experiment really), all my cameras are 16MP equivalent and below.

I was surprised when I realised I've been using 16MP for this length of time and feel no inclination to upgrade at all. 24MP calls me not one jot. I do plan to upgrade my Lumix G6 to a G7 when the prices/used prices fall to bargain basement level simply for the ergonomics but the image quality is identical to what I have now.

Threads on this forum indicate that people are still interested in ever-refining image quality but this seems to be a minority view these days.
This couldn't be further from the truth. Virtually nobody who doesn't want high image quality will spend the money to buy a big, heay, expensive, DSLR and lenses. The same goes for full-frame cameras. Most people buy those to get better quality, and they are selling better than ever.
Image quality everywhere seems to be sufficient for most people and the manufacturers themselves.
Of course it's "sufficient" for the manufacturers. They don't want to spend as much money on the cameras. They want to maximize profit. It's almost as if they're too stupid to realize what's going on with Sony and their 42 MP A7r II.
Not much pushing of the envelope any more aside perhaps from Sigma and the medium format suppliers.
Even the medium format suppliers haven't been pushing the envelope much. They apparently either can't afford to or they don't want to. They made 33 MP sensors ten years ago, and they have only barely tripled that, when they should have been doubling resolution every two years, which would put them at more than 200 MP by now. The way digital sensor resolution was growing between 2001 and 2006, there is no way that Pentax would have released an upgraded camera that had a sensor with only 25 % more megapixels. From 2010 to 2016 Pentax went from a 40 MP camera to a 50 MP camera. That's pathetic. The crazy thing is that people seem to think Pentax is still a good value. That shows how little pushing of the envelope there has been in the medium format market. It's no wonder medium format cameras haven't been selling much.

A real company (like Phase One) would upgrade sensor resolution more significantly. There's a reason Phase One is doing so well. They are the only company to provide a decent quality 100 MP camera with a decent line of lenses. If Hasselblad had pushed the envelope, they would not be making 50 MP cameras anymore. Instead, they would have a 120 MP camera, which would be twice the megapixels of their 60 MP camera, which they made years and years ago.

I wouldn't call Sigma's step up from 14.7 MP to 19.6 MP a "pushing of the envelope" . . . really. It took more than two or three years for that little upgrade . . . and it really was a small upgrade, when you compare the image file samples from the SD1 and sd Quattro. Finally Sigma is about to deliver a sensor bigger than APS-C. It's about time! Where is the 30 MP sensor? If Sigma REALLY wanted to push the envelope, they would have one by now. It's been five years since they made their 14.7 MP sensor and the SD1 camera to put it in. There is NO reason they should have not upgraded to a sensor with double the megapixels in that much time. They haven't even announced a camera that is double the megapixels of the SD1 yet.

"The SD1 was announced by Sigma at photokina 2010 on September 21, 2010. It was officially put on sale in May 2011 . . ." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_SD1#Sigma_SD1_Merrill
--
Scott Barton Kennelly
http://www.bigprintphotos.com
OK but if the demand really exists, why aren't pixels being pushed any more? It worked fine for a decade, why suddenly stop? I still go with my hypothesis that when more MP generated sales growth, you got more MP. Now we have reached a quality level where the mainstream buyer sees no advantage in more MP, won't pay for it, and so there is no pressure on manufacturers to develop their sensors. If Nikon could generate growth again by releasing a 50MP aps-c sensor, they would to steal Canon's lunch. But I would guess they think the investment would not generate the sales and isn't worth it. Instead, they are trying to con people into paying high prices for 35mm full frame cameras where the profit margins are still high even though the benefits (a fraction of an ISO level lower noise) aren't really there. The D500 is also high priced compared to a £280 D3300 which has more MP - it isn't MP that are selling cameras any more.
You could probably make a convincing argument that it wasn't megapixels that was selling cameras after they hit 8 megapixels, but would THAT be true? After-all, the cameras kept getting faster. They also kept getting bigger raw buffers (i.e. the Canon 5 D had a much bigger buffer than the 20 D or the 30 D, which had a buffer much bigger than the buffer in the 20 D). Then they got video capabilities. Then they got more dynamic range. All the while they were getting higher ISO ranges and weather seals too (i.e. the step up from the 5 D to the 5 D Mk II included not only video, but weather seals too). Yes, there were more megapixels that came along with those cameras, but was that really what sold those cameras? Frankly, I think so, but you could make the argument that if the Canon 5 D Mk II had the same 12 MP sensor it still would have sold, purely because of the faster shooting speed, weather seals, and video capability. Now manufacturers are adding features, like fold-out screens and second memory card slots (i.e. the new GH5 has two memory card slots instead of just one). The new cameras are getting 4K video capability too.

But would a new megapixel race make sense? Maybe not, considering the available lenses. It could be that Nikon and Canon are both spending more money developing a new set of lenses, which will support a new range of 50 MP APS-C sensors. No doubt the Canon 15-85mm lens will do fine with a 50 MP APS-C sensor, but most of Canon's lenses for APS-C sensor cameras are probably not good enough to produce a significantly better image quality with a dramatically higher resolution sensor. Recently Canon has introduced improved versions of a number of L series lenses (including a new 100-400 a new 24-105, and a new 16-35). They've also introduced a couple of completely new lenses (i.e. 11-24).

As far as Nikon competing against Canon . . . do they really? It seems to me that they've got an ongoing agreement NOT to compete with each other. Why else would they both make a 20 MP high-end APS-C sensor camera? What's the magic number 20 all about? Nikon has been making good quality 24 MP cameras for quite some time, and now they make a 20 MP sensor for their flagship APS-C sensor camera? That doesn't make ANY sense to me. Why did Nikon take so long to make a replacement for their D300s? The most likely reason I can think of is to fulfill an agreement they made with Canon. It's not as if lots of Nikon owners wouldn't have bought a D400 or D310 with a 16 MP sensor. They made the D4 and D4s during the same time, and those had 16 MP sensors. No, we have no real idea why Nikon and Canon often seem be running neck and neck, though with the D3x Nikon leapfrogged Canon to become the high resolution king, and then Canon just let them stay that way all the way up until the recent release of the 5 Ds. My guess is we will see Canon hold the crown for 5 years, and Canon will not make a camera with significantly more resolution than 50 MP in that time. Then Nikon will make a 60 MP camera (maybe 72 MP, which would be twice the resolution of the D810).

Anyway, my point is that we can't assume that there is no cooperation between Nikon and Canon . . . to make them both more profit. It has happened between other Japanese companies and even between Japanese and Korean companies (and those two are age-old rivals). And it keeps happening year after year, and nothing seems to stop it. Hundreds of millions of dollars in fines and jail time don't even stop it. It's actually quite amazing.

http://www.ibtimes.com/radioshack-a...a-others-accused-illegal-price-fixing-2246314

http://www.computerworld.com/articl...hitachi--toshiba-accused-of-price-fixing.html

https://techliberation.com/2008/11/...cd-business-sure-doesnt-seem-to-do-much-good/

http://betanews.com/2006/10/31/doj-investigating-sony-for-ram-price-fixing/
--
Scott Barton Kennelly
http://www.bigprintphotos.com
Sure, Japanese companies have their culture.

However...what can't be denied is that the camera industry is in the middle of a massive slump. Sales have collapsed year on year for several years in a row.
Maybe for Canon and Nikon, but not for Sony. I believe that Sony is now selling more cameras than ever, cutting into Canon and Nikon market share with their new mirrorless cameras, which can do things that the Canon and Nikon cameras can't (i.e. take lenses from other brands via the various adapters that have become available). Canon and Nikon don't deserve to sell more cameras. They're trying to pawn off the same cameras in different packaging, at higher prices than ever, rather than making serious innovations and offering something groundbreaking, to attract more sales.
I'd like to see your references. At least according to his analysis for the last quarter of 2015.


Nikon system camera is down 11%, Canon system camera is down 11% while Sony is down 27%.

Bottom line people are not buying the market chumming of having to "upgrade" every couple of years.

The only reason today for an upgrade is if a radical new development in sensor technology that significantly impacts low light performance and dynamic range or a new form factor camera that introduces unique technologies, e.g., the Fuji XPro2 hybrid OVF. Today most top end hight resolution DSLR's are as good as we will see until a technology revolution. The difference between 36, 42 or even 50 mp is not going to show up with most lenses. There is a significant difference between a medium format 50 mp sensor and a 135 format sensor - larger sensors have always provided higher image quality and they still do.

But at the end of the day the market is saturated with very capable cameras. There is little reason to "upgrade." What is really killing the camera companies is the smart phone chewing away at the low end compact camera market. It is significantly impacting Canon.

 
Just a few thoughts (all my opinions of course):

(1) At 24mp, even bayer sensors run into noise limitations.

(2) Sigma has pushed too hard with 20mp Quattro, and we know 15mp Merrill was already up against the physical limits. This knowledge ought to lead to a viable full frame design because increasing the sensor surface area is the only way to push Foveon pixel counts successfully. Sensible design might give us a 20mp Merrill-type full frame sensor in the next few years.

(3) Consumers saw 4K TV, and wanted video, so sensor design went full throttle in that direction. This makes little difference to stills shooters but uses up all the R&D funds. All the reviews now talk about video performance, except for Sigmas and medium format.

(4) Now consumers are seeing 8K TV, and this makes them want really high-resolution cameras. The future is bright and highly detailed!
 
The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.
Yes, very interesting, isn't it? If the sensor is supposed to be the expensive part, why do high-end DSLR cameras still cost so much? Why don't they all cost about $200 to $300? I see no reason the "new" Nikon D500, with its 20 MP sensor, should cost $2,000 or even $1,000. Sony sold the A77 for $800 three years ago. Both shoot fast (though the A77 could shoot faster than today's new Nikon D500 can). Both have high quality screens on the back. Both are weather sealed. Nikon and Canon are somehow successfully fleecing photographers, and for some reason neither Sony or Pentax seem to have a significant affect on their prices.
Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count.
Actually it's two - 24 MP and 20 MP (i.e. the new Canon 7 D Mk II and the new Nikon D500).
Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities).
No, it is not the practical limit, because there is very good image quality produce with cameras that have sensors with far greater density (i.e. the 20 MP 1" sensors in the Panasonic FZ1000 and their ilk, as well as the Sony cameras with their 1" sensors). Even Nikon's 1" sensor of the V3, which is 18 MP, has a far greater density than a 24 MP APS-C sensor. The image quality from those cameras is excellent . . . though their lenses are purpose built.
Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?
I think that people do care about more MP, but not so many people do and there are no options, other than more expensive full-frame cameras, like the Nikon D810 and now the Canon 5 Ds and Sony A7r II. Obviously the Sony A7r II is selling well (it has 241 reviews at B&H already), and that is an indicator that people do indeed have an interest in spending more money to get more MP. Otherwise they would just buy the A7 II instead of the A7r II. In fact, the A7r II is almost twice the price of the A7 II, yet the A7r II has more than twice as many reviews. To me this indicates that there is a strong desire for more MP, but people are not getting what they want. I think it's sad and almost criminal.

Pentax needs to buy Samsung sensors. Unfortunately I think Pentax is often a follower, rather than a leader. Look how long it took them to make a full-frame camera. Look how long it took them to make a 24 MP camera. (I think they were the last APS-C size DSLR manufacturer to make one . . . except Sigma, who have never made one.)
Aside from purchasing a DP2M (just an experiment really), all my cameras are 16MP equivalent and below.

I was surprised when I realised I've been using 16MP for this length of time and feel no inclination to upgrade at all. 24MP calls me not one jot. I do plan to upgrade my Lumix G6 to a G7 when the prices/used prices fall to bargain basement level simply for the ergonomics but the image quality is identical to what I have now.

Threads on this forum indicate that people are still interested in ever-refining image quality but this seems to be a minority view these days.
This couldn't be further from the truth. Virtually nobody who doesn't want high image quality will spend the money to buy a big, heay, expensive, DSLR and lenses. The same goes for full-frame cameras. Most people buy those to get better quality, and they are selling better than ever.
Image quality everywhere seems to be sufficient for most people and the manufacturers themselves.
Of course it's "sufficient" for the manufacturers. They don't want to spend as much money on the cameras. They want to maximize profit. It's almost as if they're too stupid to realize what's going on with Sony and their 42 MP A7r II.
Not much pushing of the envelope any more aside perhaps from Sigma and the medium format suppliers.
Even the medium format suppliers haven't been pushing the envelope much. They apparently either can't afford to or they don't want to. They made 33 MP sensors ten years ago, and they have only barely tripled that, when they should have been doubling resolution every two years, which would put them at more than 200 MP by now. The way digital sensor resolution was growing between 2001 and 2006, there is no way that Pentax would have released an upgraded camera that had a sensor with only 25 % more megapixels. From 2010 to 2016 Pentax went from a 40 MP camera to a 50 MP camera. That's pathetic. The crazy thing is that people seem to think Pentax is still a good value. That shows how little pushing of the envelope there has been in the medium format market. It's no wonder medium format cameras haven't been selling much.

A real company (like Phase One) would upgrade sensor resolution more significantly. There's a reason Phase One is doing so well. They are the only company to provide a decent quality 100 MP camera with a decent line of lenses. If Hasselblad had pushed the envelope, they would not be making 50 MP cameras anymore. Instead, they would have a 120 MP camera, which would be twice the megapixels of their 60 MP camera, which they made years and years ago.

I wouldn't call Sigma's step up from 14.7 MP to 19.6 MP a "pushing of the envelope" . . . really. It took more than two or three years for that little upgrade . . . and it really was a small upgrade, when you compare the image file samples from the SD1 and sd Quattro. Finally Sigma is about to deliver a sensor bigger than APS-C. It's about time! Where is the 30 MP sensor? If Sigma REALLY wanted to push the envelope, they would have one by now. It's been five years since they made their 14.7 MP sensor and the SD1 camera to put it in. There is NO reason they should have not upgraded to a sensor with double the megapixels in that much time. They haven't even announced a camera that is double the megapixels of the SD1 yet.

"The SD1 was announced by Sigma at photokina 2010 on September 21, 2010. It was officially put on sale in May 2011 . . ." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_SD1#Sigma_SD1_Merrill
 
The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.
Yes, very interesting, isn't it? If the sensor is supposed to be the expensive part, why do high-end DSLR cameras still cost so much? Why don't they all cost about $200 to $300? I see no reason the "new" Nikon D500, with its 20 MP sensor, should cost $2,000 or even $1,000. Sony sold the A77 for $800 three years ago. Both shoot fast (though the A77 could shoot faster than today's new Nikon D500 can). Both have high quality screens on the back. Both are weather sealed. Nikon and Canon are somehow successfully fleecing photographers, and for some reason neither Sony or Pentax seem to have a significant affect on their prices.
Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count.
Actually it's two - 24 MP and 20 MP (i.e. the new Canon 7 D Mk II and the new Nikon D500).
Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities).
No, it is not the practical limit, because there is very good image quality produce with cameras that have sensors with far greater density (i.e. the 20 MP 1" sensors in the Panasonic FZ1000 and their ilk, as well as the Sony cameras with their 1" sensors). Even Nikon's 1" sensor of the V3, which is 18 MP, has a far greater density than a 24 MP APS-C sensor. The image quality from those cameras is excellent . . . though their lenses are purpose built.
Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?
I think that people do care about more MP, but not so many people do and there are no options, other than more expensive full-frame cameras, like the Nikon D810 and now the Canon 5 Ds and Sony A7r II. Obviously the Sony A7r II is selling well (it has 241 reviews at B&H already), and that is an indicator that people do indeed have an interest in spending more money to get more MP. Otherwise they would just buy the A7 II instead of the A7r II. In fact, the A7r II is almost twice the price of the A7 II, yet the A7r II has more than twice as many reviews. To me this indicates that there is a strong desire for more MP, but people are not getting what they want. I think it's sad and almost criminal.

Pentax needs to buy Samsung sensors. Unfortunately I think Pentax is often a follower, rather than a leader. Look how long it took them to make a full-frame camera. Look how long it took them to make a 24 MP camera. (I think they were the last APS-C size DSLR manufacturer to make one . . . except Sigma, who have never made one.)
Aside from purchasing a DP2M (just an experiment really), all my cameras are 16MP equivalent and below.

I was surprised when I realised I've been using 16MP for this length of time and feel no inclination to upgrade at all. 24MP calls me not one jot. I do plan to upgrade my Lumix G6 to a G7 when the prices/used prices fall to bargain basement level simply for the ergonomics but the image quality is identical to what I have now.

Threads on this forum indicate that people are still interested in ever-refining image quality but this seems to be a minority view these days.
This couldn't be further from the truth. Virtually nobody who doesn't want high image quality will spend the money to buy a big, heay, expensive, DSLR and lenses. The same goes for full-frame cameras. Most people buy those to get better quality, and they are selling better than ever.
Image quality everywhere seems to be sufficient for most people and the manufacturers themselves.
Of course it's "sufficient" for the manufacturers. They don't want to spend as much money on the cameras. They want to maximize profit. It's almost as if they're too stupid to realize what's going on with Sony and their 42 MP A7r II.
Not much pushing of the envelope any more aside perhaps from Sigma and the medium format suppliers.
Even the medium format suppliers haven't been pushing the envelope much. They apparently either can't afford to or they don't want to. They made 33 MP sensors ten years ago, and they have only barely tripled that, when they should have been doubling resolution every two years, which would put them at more than 200 MP by now. The way digital sensor resolution was growing between 2001 and 2006, there is no way that Pentax would have released an upgraded camera that had a sensor with only 25 % more megapixels. From 2010 to 2016 Pentax went from a 40 MP camera to a 50 MP camera. That's pathetic. The crazy thing is that people seem to think Pentax is still a good value. That shows how little pushing of the envelope there has been in the medium format market. It's no wonder medium format cameras haven't been selling much.

A real company (like Phase One) would upgrade sensor resolution more significantly. There's a reason Phase One is doing so well. They are the only company to provide a decent quality 100 MP camera with a decent line of lenses. If Hasselblad had pushed the envelope, they would not be making 50 MP cameras anymore. Instead, they would have a 120 MP camera, which would be twice the megapixels of their 60 MP camera, which they made years and years ago.

I wouldn't call Sigma's step up from 14.7 MP to 19.6 MP a "pushing of the envelope" . . . really. It took more than two or three years for that little upgrade . . . and it really was a small upgrade, when you compare the image file samples from the SD1 and sd Quattro. Finally Sigma is about to deliver a sensor bigger than APS-C. It's about time! Where is the 30 MP sensor? If Sigma REALLY wanted to push the envelope, they would have one by now. It's been five years since they made their 14.7 MP sensor and the SD1 camera to put it in. There is NO reason they should have not upgraded to a sensor with double the megapixels in that much time. They haven't even announced a camera that is double the megapixels of the SD1 yet.

"The SD1 was announced by Sigma at photokina 2010 on September 21, 2010. It was officially put on sale in May 2011 . . ." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_SD1#Sigma_SD1_Merrill
 
I think this is a dangerously simplistic view, but I will respond with an equally simplistic answer.

The D500 costs 2x what the A77II does because it's worth twice as much in the marketplace.

For a more nuanced view, I point to:
  • Access to Nikon's vastly superior lens range (both in quality and value)
  • Double of many important things- AF points (153 vs 79), LCD resolution (2.3 MP vs 1.2 MP), video resolution (4K vs 1080p)
  • USB 3.0 vs 2.0
And most importantly,
  • Embarrassingly superior battery life (1240 shots vs 480 shots according to CIPA)
Not to mention the superior retail value- all Sony products are pretty much a gamble in that regard; D500 is probably the most anticipated camera body in DSLR history.

Regarding the original topic of the thread.... much of APS-C has stopped developing because it's in a tough space. All the APS-C DSLR systems share a mount with full frame systems, so there has been no impetus to develop the lens ranges, which in turn has hamstrung sensor development. Aside from the D500 (;-) ), which will primarily be used with FX telephoto lenses anyway, it's hard to justify building a system around a Nikon DX body; and even with the D500 I would not choose it for general photography. In the context of building a system, the incremental cost of a D610 is not that huge depending on how much glass you need; especially considering equivalent glass for FX vs DX is almost always lighter, cheaper and sharper.

Couple this with the fact that entry level DSLRs, the volume sellers, are in a sales freefall, and it's obvious why development dollars are flowing upward. They have to follow the money. Plus in any case 24MP is plenty.
 
Truman Prevatt wrote: The camera market is simply realigning from a bubble created by the advent of digital. Digital capture is only about 20 years old. Affordable digital cameras have been around for about 15 years. During that period every Tom, ****, Harry, Jane and their dogs bought digital cameras first starting with compacts then moving on to ASP-C cameras and then to FF and high end ASP-C. New people were coming into the market all the time. The market is saturated - smart phones are replacing the compact cameras as you have a camera and a phone so no need to have both a phone and a camera. Now we are to the point that a few more MP won't make any difference. Now we have very good low light performance to the point that most of the backlit sensors are almost ISO-less.
This is not true with small sensors. Cell phones, for example, still suck at low light photography. A friend of mine has an iPhone 6 Plus, and she just posted a sunset photo that looks absolutely terrible, because of the small sensor in the iPhone she used to shoot the photo. The reason people use their smart phones instead of getting a digital camera is because they're convenient. That's all. They're "good enough" . . . but they still suck. They have no optical zoom, terrible low light performance, and they can't shoot wide-angle photos. They do lots of stuff well though, and they typically work fine in normal light. They also have a big review screen and do video pretty well too. They're SUPER convenient for sharing photos, and I think the fact that people only have to carry one thing, rather than two, makes them competitive with real cameras, even though they are inferior.
The big bubble arose a lot of new people who bought digital cameras found out that they didn't really need or use a camera or their smart phone would be fine. So the camera companies are experiencing the air going out of the bubble.
I'd say that's a fair assessment. I believe the digital camera craze was just that . . . like a fad, which has been replaced by smart phones . . . but I don't think it's such a bad thing. I believe there will be more photographers now, as a result . . . especially as a result of people shooting more photos with their smart phones.
The demand for particularly high end cameras will come back to the level as the demand for high end film cameras prior to the digital bubble.
I don't think so. I think more people will be amateur photographers in the future . . . a lot more people. I think smart phones introduce people to photography so much that it will produce at least twice as many photographers, amateur and professional alike.
The compact market is basically being eaten alive by smart phones.
Yes, it is, but there will always be a compact camera market, because compact cameras are purpose-built, and they have larger sensors and zoom lenses unlike smart phones will never have. Another problem with the compact camera market is that there was a glut on the market, and there still seems to be one. So many companies got into the compact camera business that they became available for absurd prices. Today you can buy an 18 MP compact camera with an 8x zoom lens for under $50 at Walmart, and I have no doubt that camera is probably capable of capturing better images than my 4 MP, $650 Canon G3, faster than my Canon could, and with more capabilities for processing the photos in the camera, after shooting them. The $50 camera is definitely smaller, has a longer zoom range, and captures with much much higher resolution.

 
The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.
Yes, very interesting, isn't it? If the sensor is supposed to be the expensive part, why do high-end DSLR cameras still cost so much? Why don't they all cost about $200 to $300? I see no reason the "new" Nikon D500, with its 20 MP sensor, should cost $2,000 or even $1,000. Sony sold the A77 for $800 three years ago. Both shoot fast (though the A77 could shoot faster than today's new Nikon D500 can). Both have high quality screens on the back. Both are weather sealed. Nikon and Canon are somehow successfully fleecing photographers, and for some reason neither Sony or Pentax seem to have a significant affect on their prices.
Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count.
Actually it's two - 24 MP and 20 MP (i.e. the new Canon 7 D Mk II and the new Nikon D500).
Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities).
No, it is not the practical limit, because there is very good image quality produce with cameras that have sensors with far greater density (i.e. the 20 MP 1" sensors in the Panasonic FZ1000 and their ilk, as well as the Sony cameras with their 1" sensors). Even Nikon's 1" sensor of the V3, which is 18 MP, has a far greater density than a 24 MP APS-C sensor. The image quality from those cameras is excellent . . . though their lenses are purpose built.
Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?
I think that people do care about more MP, but not so many people do and there are no options, other than more expensive full-frame cameras, like the Nikon D810 and now the Canon 5 Ds and Sony A7r II. Obviously the Sony A7r II is selling well (it has 241 reviews at B&H already), and that is an indicator that people do indeed have an interest in spending more money to get more MP. Otherwise they would just buy the A7 II instead of the A7r II. In fact, the A7r II is almost twice the price of the A7 II, yet the A7r II has more than twice as many reviews. To me this indicates that there is a strong desire for more MP, but people are not getting what they want. I think it's sad and almost criminal.

Pentax needs to buy Samsung sensors. Unfortunately I think Pentax is often a follower, rather than a leader. Look how long it took them to make a full-frame camera. Look how long it took them to make a 24 MP camera. (I think they were the last APS-C size DSLR manufacturer to make one . . . except Sigma, who have never made one.)
Aside from purchasing a DP2M (just an experiment really), all my cameras are 16MP equivalent and below.

I was surprised when I realised I've been using 16MP for this length of time and feel no inclination to upgrade at all. 24MP calls me not one jot. I do plan to upgrade my Lumix G6 to a G7 when the prices/used prices fall to bargain basement level simply for the ergonomics but the image quality is identical to what I have now.

Threads on this forum indicate that people are still interested in ever-refining image quality but this seems to be a minority view these days.
This couldn't be further from the truth. Virtually nobody who doesn't want high image quality will spend the money to buy a big, heay, expensive, DSLR and lenses. The same goes for full-frame cameras. Most people buy those to get better quality, and they are selling better than ever.
Image quality everywhere seems to be sufficient for most people and the manufacturers themselves.
Of course it's "sufficient" for the manufacturers. They don't want to spend as much money on the cameras. They want to maximize profit. It's almost as if they're too stupid to realize what's going on with Sony and their 42 MP A7r II.
Not much pushing of the envelope any more aside perhaps from Sigma and the medium format suppliers.
Even the medium format suppliers haven't been pushing the envelope much. They apparently either can't afford to or they don't want to. They made 33 MP sensors ten years ago, and they have only barely tripled that, when they should have been doubling resolution every two years, which would put them at more than 200 MP by now. The way digital sensor resolution was growing between 2001 and 2006, there is no way that Pentax would have released an upgraded camera that had a sensor with only 25 % more megapixels. From 2010 to 2016 Pentax went from a 40 MP camera to a 50 MP camera. That's pathetic. The crazy thing is that people seem to think Pentax is still a good value. That shows how little pushing of the envelope there has been in the medium format market. It's no wonder medium format cameras haven't been selling much.

A real company (like Phase One) would upgrade sensor resolution more significantly. There's a reason Phase One is doing so well. They are the only company to provide a decent quality 100 MP camera with a decent line of lenses. If Hasselblad had pushed the envelope, they would not be making 50 MP cameras anymore. Instead, they would have a 120 MP camera, which would be twice the megapixels of their 60 MP camera, which they made years and years ago.

I wouldn't call Sigma's step up from 14.7 MP to 19.6 MP a "pushing of the envelope" . . . really. It took more than two or three years for that little upgrade . . . and it really was a small upgrade, when you compare the image file samples from the SD1 and sd Quattro. Finally Sigma is about to deliver a sensor bigger than APS-C. It's about time! Where is the 30 MP sensor? If Sigma REALLY wanted to push the envelope, they would have one by now. It's been five years since they made their 14.7 MP sensor and the SD1 camera to put it in. There is NO reason they should have not upgraded to a sensor with double the megapixels in that much time. They haven't even announced a camera that is double the megapixels of the SD1 yet.

"The SD1 was announced by Sigma at photokina 2010 on September 21, 2010. It was officially put on sale in May 2011 . . ." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_SD1#Sigma_SD1_Merrill
 
The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.
Yes, very interesting, isn't it? If the sensor is supposed to be the expensive part, why do high-end DSLR cameras still cost so much? Why don't they all cost about $200 to $300? I see no reason the "new" Nikon D500, with its 20 MP sensor, should cost $2,000 or even $1,000. Sony sold the A77 for $800 three years ago. Both shoot fast (though the A77 could shoot faster than today's new Nikon D500 can). Both have high quality screens on the back. Both are weather sealed. Nikon and Canon are somehow successfully fleecing photographers, and for some reason neither Sony or Pentax seem to have a significant affect on their prices.
Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count.
Actually it's two - 24 MP and 20 MP (i.e. the new Canon 7 D Mk II and the new Nikon D500).
Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities).
No, it is not the practical limit, because there is very good image quality produce with cameras that have sensors with far greater density (i.e. the 20 MP 1" sensors in the Panasonic FZ1000 and their ilk, as well as the Sony cameras with their 1" sensors). Even Nikon's 1" sensor of the V3, which is 18 MP, has a far greater density than a 24 MP APS-C sensor. The image quality from those cameras is excellent . . . though their lenses are purpose built.
Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?
I think that people do care about more MP, but not so many people do and there are no options, other than more expensive full-frame cameras, like the Nikon D810 and now the Canon 5 Ds and Sony A7r II. Obviously the Sony A7r II is selling well (it has 241 reviews at B&H already), and that is an indicator that people do indeed have an interest in spending more money to get more MP. Otherwise they would just buy the A7 II instead of the A7r II. In fact, the A7r II is almost twice the price of the A7 II, yet the A7r II has more than twice as many reviews. To me this indicates that there is a strong desire for more MP, but people are not getting what they want. I think it's sad and almost criminal.

Pentax needs to buy Samsung sensors. Unfortunately I think Pentax is often a follower, rather than a leader. Look how long it took them to make a full-frame camera. Look how long it took them to make a 24 MP camera. (I think they were the last APS-C size DSLR manufacturer to make one . . . except Sigma, who have never made one.)
Aside from purchasing a DP2M (just an experiment really), all my cameras are 16MP equivalent and below.

I was surprised when I realised I've been using 16MP for this length of time and feel no inclination to upgrade at all. 24MP calls me not one jot. I do plan to upgrade my Lumix G6 to a G7 when the prices/used prices fall to bargain basement level simply for the ergonomics but the image quality is identical to what I have now.

Threads on this forum indicate that people are still interested in ever-refining image quality but this seems to be a minority view these days.
This couldn't be further from the truth. Virtually nobody who doesn't want high image quality will spend the money to buy a big, heay, expensive, DSLR and lenses. The same goes for full-frame cameras. Most people buy those to get better quality, and they are selling better than ever.
Image quality everywhere seems to be sufficient for most people and the manufacturers themselves.
Of course it's "sufficient" for the manufacturers. They don't want to spend as much money on the cameras. They want to maximize profit. It's almost as if they're too stupid to realize what's going on with Sony and their 42 MP A7r II.
Not much pushing of the envelope any more aside perhaps from Sigma and the medium format suppliers.
Even the medium format suppliers haven't been pushing the envelope much. They apparently either can't afford to or they don't want to. They made 33 MP sensors ten years ago, and they have only barely tripled that, when they should have been doubling resolution every two years, which would put them at more than 200 MP by now. The way digital sensor resolution was growing between 2001 and 2006, there is no way that Pentax would have released an upgraded camera that had a sensor with only 25 % more megapixels. From 2010 to 2016 Pentax went from a 40 MP camera to a 50 MP camera. That's pathetic. The crazy thing is that people seem to think Pentax is still a good value. That shows how little pushing of the envelope there has been in the medium format market. It's no wonder medium format cameras haven't been selling much.

A real company (like Phase One) would upgrade sensor resolution more significantly. There's a reason Phase One is doing so well. They are the only company to provide a decent quality 100 MP camera with a decent line of lenses. If Hasselblad had pushed the envelope, they would not be making 50 MP cameras anymore. Instead, they would have a 120 MP camera, which would be twice the megapixels of their 60 MP camera, which they made years and years ago.

I wouldn't call Sigma's step up from 14.7 MP to 19.6 MP a "pushing of the envelope" . . . really. It took more than two or three years for that little upgrade . . . and it really was a small upgrade, when you compare the image file samples from the SD1 and sd Quattro. Finally Sigma is about to deliver a sensor bigger than APS-C. It's about time! Where is the 30 MP sensor? If Sigma REALLY wanted to push the envelope, they would have one by now. It's been five years since they made their 14.7 MP sensor and the SD1 camera to put it in. There is NO reason they should have not upgraded to a sensor with double the megapixels in that much time. They haven't even announced a camera that is double the megapixels of the SD1 yet.

"The SD1 was announced by Sigma at photokina 2010 on September 21, 2010. It was officially put on sale in May 2011 . . ." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_SD1#Sigma_SD1_Merrill
 
I think this is a dangerously simplistic view, but I will respond with an equally simplistic answer.

The D500 costs 2x what the A77II does because it's worth twice as much in the marketplace.
To some people, I'm sure that is true, but all you have to do is go over to the Sony SLT forum here on DPreview, and you'll see many comments from people who chose to get a new Sony A77 II, rather than the new Nikon D500. I predict that $2,000 price tag of the D500 will drop to $1,500 within six months and be around $1,000 by the end of the year.
For a more nuanced view, I point to:
  • Access to Nikon's vastly superior lens range (both in quality and value)
Quality? I don't think you can get any better than the Sony 70-400 G II or the Sony-Zeiss 24-70mm f2.8 G. Maybe you're referring to the fact that the larger range of lenses somehow makes the whole line have more quality.
  • Double of many important things- AF points (153 vs 79), LCD resolution (2.3 MP vs 1.2 MP), video resolution (4K vs 1080p)
Don't forget the much larger buffer. Of course, today's Sony A77 II is actually $1,200 and not $800, so the difference in price isn't quite as great.
  • USB 3.0 vs 2.0
And most importantly,
  • Embarrassingly superior battery life (1240 shots vs 480 shots according to CIPA)
Well, I don't know or care what the CIPA ratings are. I can shoot well over 1,000 photos with one Sony battery in any of my three Sony bodies, and even with my A55, which had a much smaller battery, I could shoot more than 1240 shots on a single charge in a single photo shoot. If you never have tried one, you should try a Sony camera some time, and you'll surely see what I'm talking about.
Not to mention the superior retail value- all Sony products are pretty much a gamble in that regard;
Well, I must say you are a little uneducated in that regard. I've found that both Nikon and Sony cameras drop in price significantly. I can buy a used Nikon D300 for less than I can buy a used Sony A77, though when the A77 came on the market the Nikon cost more. I think it's about the same with Sigma cameras too. Nikon and Canon do not have some sort of magic, when it comes to buying used or selling used. There are lots of good, used lenses available for Sony cameras like the A77 too.
D500 is probably the most anticipated camera body in DSLR history.
That's because Nikon held back and didn't make a real replacement for the D300s for a few years. It took so long that some people said it would never come. Of course Sony is guilty of similar things, so I'm not saying Sony is superior in that regard.
Regarding the original topic of the thread.... much of APS-C has stopped developing because it's in a tough space. All the APS-C DSLR systems share a mount with full frame systems, so there has been no impetus to develop the lens ranges, which in turn has hamstrung sensor development.
This may be the main reason nobody except Samsung have ever exceeded 24 MP in their APS-C size sensors.
Aside from the D500 (;-) ), which will primarily be used with FX telephoto lenses anyway, it's hard to justify building a system around a Nikon DX body
More people build a system around a Nikon DX body than a Nikon FX body. It's that simple. The DX bodies are cheaper, and like many people here, including you, have stated, 24 MP is enough (for many beginners and even some advanced photographers) . . . so why pay more? Many people can't afford a $2,000 body AND a couple of $500 lenses, but they can afford $1,500 for a couple of $500 lenses and a $500 body. That's one reason the D5500 and its predecessors have been so popular. Likewise for the D7000 series. There are not that many people who can justify spending twice as much money on a full-frame body, when the image quality they can get from a body with an APS-C sensor is almost as good.
; and even with the D500 I would not choose it for general photography.
Why not? It's a good, fast camera. Most people who buy it will use it for exactly that . . . general photography . . . though today you can get a 24 MP D610 for about the same price, and maybe that would be a better choice for people who rarely shoot video or sports. I'd say just the 4K video capability would make a D500 the better choice though.
In the context of building a system, the incremental cost of a D610 is not that huge depending on how much glass you need; especially considering equivalent glass for FX vs DX is almost always lighter, cheaper and sharper.
Are you saying that full-frame glass is lighter and cheaper? If so, please explain, because I am pretty sure it's the other way around.
Couple this with the fact that entry level DSLRs, the volume sellers, are in a sales freefall, and it's obvious why development dollars are flowing upward. They have to follow the money. Plus in any case 24MP is plenty.
If 24 MP really were plenty, then nobody would buy the Nikon D810. They would all buy the D750 or D610 instead. Nobody would buy the Sony A7r II. Instead they would buy the much cheaper A7 II. I will bet you any amount of money that if Nikon were to make a 30 MP DSLR with an APS-C sensor it would sell quite well, unless it was handicapped by a small buffer, slow speed, or some other serious problem . . . or if it was absurdly expensive (like as much as a D810 or something like that). APS-C is about the size and price of the camera and the fact that long lenses get longer, when using such a body. Someone can use a less expensive 50mm f1.4 lens and get an almost equivalent image to a full-frame camera with an 85mm lens on it. Someone can shoot with a $2,000 70-200mm f2.8 and get a lighter and less-expensive equivalent of a $3,000 120-300mm f2.8 lens on a full-frame camera. Greater depth of field is also another advantage. Yes, there are disadvantages too, but if the price is lower, which it should be, many people will pick the APS-C camera, rather than going for full-frame. Notice I didn't say most people. I don't know how many would. Maybe only a small percentage, but it would still add up to a large number (many thousands).
 
Good thread David. I bought a Pentax K-5 about 5 years ago and just have not had any real reason to move up a 24 MP DSLR (the K-3II is my prime example since I have been with Pentax since 1983). I also have two (2) K-01s which have virtually the same 16 MP processor.

I also have a DP2M and DP3M but use them only on occasions. Content with what I have in the 16 MP Pentax cameras plus I have a lot of nice K mount glass made by both Pentax and Sigma.
 
24MP on APSC is quite high pixel density, I think it's a limit, simply beacuse of lens. Higher pixel density is not useless due to bayer mosaic, it can be an improvment on IQ, and of course there are different lenses and it's an analog part so there is no such thing that a glass can deliver 24MP pixel perfectly but not 25MP.

Higher MP require larger sensor. And sensor sizes are no different, same as 5 yeras ago.

But the demand is there for higher resolution. For me 12Mp was plenty when I had 24" FHD display. Even my Nikon D50 photos looked quite good. But now I have a 40" UHD display and my DP2m is barely enough. The ricoh GR looks good but obviously lacks of resolution. D50 is just not enough and small sensor compacts, phones look like sh*t. This display shines with foveon images or 36Mp and higher bayer images.

I'd like to go for at least 36mm, but not affordable for me. So I'm happy with my DP2m for landscape photography and Ricoh GR for anything else.
I bet a new Nikon D7300 with a 36 MP APS-C sensor would pique your interest, and you'd at least consider buying one, even it it was the same price as the D7200 was when it came on the market.

You see, I think this is what the camera makers are missing. They don't seem to realize that stopping the megapixel race has virtually stopped their sales of these cameras. No more upgrading, because the so-called upgrades are not significant enough to people anymore.

Then again, maybe Nikon and Canon . . . and Sony too . . . are getting ready for a whole new generation of digital imaging. Maybe there is something new on the horizon, and none of us can see it coming . . . but they can.
 
Just a few thoughts (all my opinions of course):

(1) At 24mp, even bayer sensors run into noise limitations.
I don't think so. The 1" sensor of a Nikon 1 V3 is 1/4 the size of the APS-C sensor in the D7200, but it has 3/4 the number of pixels. How can that sensor not have noise limitations, when it is more than twice the density of the sensor in the D7200? Imagine a 48 MP D7300? That would still produce less noise than the sensor in the V3.
(2) Sigma has pushed too hard with 20mp Quattro, and we know 15mp Merrill was already up against the physical limits.
You will be proven to be mistaken. The Quattro sensors are not as noisy as you think. In its infancy, the first Quattro sensor appeared to be very noisy, but every sensor Sigma has made appeared to be noisy when they were first released. In a year or two the Quattro sensors will not seem noisy at all, because the current "noise problem" will have been "cured" by firmware and software (SPP) updates, just like happened with the Merrill sensor. Already there has been great progress made with the Quattro sensors. The same thing happened with the Nikon D3x sensor, the Nikon D800 sensor, the Nikon D7100 sensor, the Canon 1 D Mk III sensor, and so many others. It's happening right now with the Canon 5 Ds sensor too.
This knowledge ought to lead to a viable full frame design because increasing the sensor surface area is the only way to push Foveon pixel counts successfully. Sensible design might give us a 20mp Merrill-type full frame sensor in the next few years.
A 20 MP full-frame Merrill? I don't think that would be necessary. A 30 MP full-frame Merrill would have sensels 2/3 the size and larger than what the SD1 has. I think that would be the right compromise. I don't see many people buying it if it doesn't make photos that are higher resolution than the SD Quattro H.
(3) Consumers saw 4K TV, and wanted video, so sensor design went full throttle in that direction. This makes little difference to stills shooters but uses up all the R&D funds.
That does not explain Nikon's decision to go backward in the megapixel race, from 24 MP in the D7200 to 20 MP in the D500. If there was no money for sensor development, why would Nikon use a new sensor at all?
All the reviews now talk about video performance, except for Sigmas and medium format.

(4) Now consumers are seeing 8K TV, and this makes them want really high-resolution cameras. The future is bright and highly detailed!
Hopefully.
 
The ASP-C sensor is 24x16mm (384 mm^2) +/- (and the FF is 36x24 (864 mm^2). The pixel density of a 24 mp ASP-C is 62,500 pixels/mm^2 +/-. The pixel density of a 36 mp FF is 41,667 pixels/mm^2 +/-. A 50 mp FF is 57,870 pixels/mm^2 +/- which is less dense than a 24 mp ASP-C sensor. A FF with the same density as a 24 mp ASP-C would be 54 mp.

There is always a trade off with pixel density and noise and pixel density and dynamic range. In these respects bigger pixels are better. Given that the push today is lower noise and higher ISO and higher dynamic range I expect I expect that is the push today by the foundries - especially Sony over pixel density.

So we may have very well reached plateau in pixel density. In reality today's 24 mp sensors produce amazing images - probably comparable to 6x7 film. Now to get better sensitivity and noise performance so the low light and dynamic range performance can be enhanced.

Truman

--
Truman
www.pbase.com/tprevatt
It was interesting at the exhibition because all the images looked very good to me irrespective of whether they came from a NEX 3, GH3, 35mm full frame or Phase One back. A c. 24" wide print, even a landscape, doesn't seem to challenge digital cameras that much.

I often hear people say that no matter what size the print, it should look as perfect as can be at any viewing distance (that's been my motto) and others say that bigger prints can be lower quality because you stand further away. The debates on this rage but I have to report that at the exhibition, I found 4 feet to be about the right viewing distance.

I did look closer once or twice simply out of technical curiosity and they still looked fine but to be honest I didn't really want to look that closely. Not because of image quality limitations but because close up you can't see the whole composition. For "art" prints where the composition is the raison d'etre for existence of the picture, what would be the point of scrutinising the detail like it was a test print?. Forensic examination of this sort of picture is about as useful as checking out the mounting screws to see if they were high quality stainless steel - missing the point.

--
Galleries and website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmillier/
I agree totally - with the proviso that sometimes detail can be the raison d'être for a visual image. I'm thinking Breugel, Bosch etc. but even with Jack the Dripper for example it is fascinating to see whether the black goes under or over the red......... Generally work should be viewed at the distance that it's maker meant it to be. Got yer Sistine Chapel aintcher? or a Rembrandt etching kept in a cabinet to be admired by special guests with a new-fangled magnifying glass.

A friend owned a photography shop in the boom years when customers would bring their memory cards and order "one of each", zillions of prints, made a bomb - but 2 years later went bust when sharing via social media took over. I'm afraid we few who think that the end product of our efforts is a beautiful print are dinosaurs - but not as interesting. My work is me.

I'd guess there are very many who have never seen an original painting or printed work by those whom they profess to revere - A Adams etc.

I confess to being a picture peeper myself. Been a Velazquez fan forever but many years ago saw this original in Scotland for the first time: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...618._Óleo_sobre_lienzo,_100.5_x_119.5_cm).jpg I'd always thought (from reproductions) the shadow of the knife on the white bowl was a transparent glaze but shock! it's thickly painted! Changed my whole perception of Velazquez' amazing control of values.

Online viewers just don't know what they're missing ;-)

George

--
Joris1632
Wow! I've never seen the golden colors of brass done so well in a painting.

--
Scott Barton Kennelly
http://www.bigprintphotos.com
 
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The A77 came out more than 5 years ago offering 24MP in a "cropped" sensor. This is now the entry level in APS-C. It is also the top end.
Yes, very interesting, isn't it? If the sensor is supposed to be the expensive part, why do high-end DSLR cameras still cost so much? Why don't they all cost about $200 to $300? I see no reason the "new" Nikon D500, with its 20 MP sensor, should cost $2,000 or even $1,000. Sony sold the A77 for $800 three years ago. Both shoot fast (though the A77 could shoot faster than today's new Nikon D500 can). Both have high quality screens on the back. Both are weather sealed. Nikon and Canon are somehow successfully fleecing photographers, and for some reason neither Sony or Pentax seem to have a significant affect on their prices.
Interesting. Basically, current cameras offer only one MP count.
Actually it's two - 24 MP and 20 MP (i.e. the new Canon 7 D Mk II and the new Nikon D500).
Why is this, I wonder? Is 24MP simply the practical limit (seems unlikely given that phones and compacts have higher pixel densities).
No, it is not the practical limit, because there is very good image quality produce with cameras that have sensors with far greater density (i.e. the 20 MP 1" sensors in the Panasonic FZ1000 and their ilk, as well as the Sony cameras with their 1" sensors). Even Nikon's 1" sensor of the V3, which is 18 MP, has a far greater density than a 24 MP APS-C sensor. The image quality from those cameras is excellent . . . though their lenses are purpose built.
Or is it that people simply don't care any more and more MP doesn't sell?
I think that people do care about more MP, but not so many people do and there are no options, other than more expensive full-frame cameras, like the Nikon D810 and now the Canon 5 Ds and Sony A7r II. Obviously the Sony A7r II is selling well (it has 241 reviews at B&H already), and that is an indicator that people do indeed have an interest in spending more money to get more MP. Otherwise they would just buy the A7 II instead of the A7r II. In fact, the A7r II is almost twice the price of the A7 II, yet the A7r II has more than twice as many reviews. To me this indicates that there is a strong desire for more MP, but people are not getting what they want. I think it's sad and almost criminal.

Pentax needs to buy Samsung sensors. Unfortunately I think Pentax is often a follower, rather than a leader. Look how long it took them to make a full-frame camera. Look how long it took them to make a 24 MP camera. (I think they were the last APS-C size DSLR manufacturer to make one . . . except Sigma, who have never made one.)
Aside from purchasing a DP2M (just an experiment really), all my cameras are 16MP equivalent and below.

I was surprised when I realised I've been using 16MP for this length of time and feel no inclination to upgrade at all. 24MP calls me not one jot. I do plan to upgrade my Lumix G6 to a G7 when the prices/used prices fall to bargain basement level simply for the ergonomics but the image quality is identical to what I have now.

Threads on this forum indicate that people are still interested in ever-refining image quality but this seems to be a minority view these days.
This couldn't be further from the truth. Virtually nobody who doesn't want high image quality will spend the money to buy a big, heay, expensive, DSLR and lenses. The same goes for full-frame cameras. Most people buy those to get better quality, and they are selling better than ever.
Image quality everywhere seems to be sufficient for most people and the manufacturers themselves.
Of course it's "sufficient" for the manufacturers. They don't want to spend as much money on the cameras. They want to maximize profit. It's almost as if they're too stupid to realize what's going on with Sony and their 42 MP A7r II.
Not much pushing of the envelope any more aside perhaps from Sigma and the medium format suppliers.
Even the medium format suppliers haven't been pushing the envelope much. They apparently either can't afford to or they don't want to. They made 33 MP sensors ten years ago, and they have only barely tripled that, when they should have been doubling resolution every two years, which would put them at more than 200 MP by now. The way digital sensor resolution was growing between 2001 and 2006, there is no way that Pentax would have released an upgraded camera that had a sensor with only 25 % more megapixels. From 2010 to 2016 Pentax went from a 40 MP camera to a 50 MP camera. That's pathetic. The crazy thing is that people seem to think Pentax is still a good value. That shows how little pushing of the envelope there has been in the medium format market. It's no wonder medium format cameras haven't been selling much.

A real company (like Phase One) would upgrade sensor resolution more significantly. There's a reason Phase One is doing so well. They are the only company to provide a decent quality 100 MP camera with a decent line of lenses. If Hasselblad had pushed the envelope, they would not be making 50 MP cameras anymore. Instead, they would have a 120 MP camera, which would be twice the megapixels of their 60 MP camera, which they made years and years ago.

I wouldn't call Sigma's step up from 14.7 MP to 19.6 MP a "pushing of the envelope" . . . really. It took more than two or three years for that little upgrade . . . and it really was a small upgrade, when you compare the image file samples from the SD1 and sd Quattro. Finally Sigma is about to deliver a sensor bigger than APS-C. It's about time! Where is the 30 MP sensor? If Sigma REALLY wanted to push the envelope, they would have one by now. It's been five years since they made their 14.7 MP sensor and the SD1 camera to put it in. There is NO reason they should have not upgraded to a sensor with double the megapixels in that much time. They haven't even announced a camera that is double the megapixels of the SD1 yet.

"The SD1 was announced by Sigma at photokina 2010 on September 21, 2010. It was officially put on sale in May 2011 . . ." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_SD1#Sigma_SD1_Merrill
 

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