Costco Prints Too Dark

jrkliny · May 24, 2016

technoid said:
I presume you mean that turning down the monitor brightness lets you adjust the image in LR or PS so it will look more like what the print looks like because your print illumination is lower relative to your normal display.

You presumption is incorrect.

If the monitor is not calibrated, the image will appear to be too blue. With post processing the image can be adjusted so it looks correct on the monitor. If that processed file is printed, it will now be way too red/yellow. If the monitor is correctly color calibrated, then when the displayed image is adjusted to taste, the final print will match. The same happens with monitor brightness. If the image on the monitor appears bright because the monitor is set too bright, then processing would set the image so that it prints too dark. If the monitor brightness is turned down, then processing will be needed to lighten the image so it looks correct on the monitor. I find it is not possible to turn my monitor dark enough to avoid dark prints but I can come pretty close.

So the image appearance is adjusted with post processing so that it matches the maker's intentions. If the monitor calibration, including brightness, is correct, the final print will also match the maker's intention.

--
Jim, aka camperjim
http://www.specialplacesphoto.com

technoid · May 24, 2016

digidog said:
Iliah Borg said:

Member said:

So how many calibration targets/profiles do you end up with? One for each paper

Click to expand...

Yes, one for each paper. I hardly use similar papers, defeats the point

Click to expand...

Ditto for me (although I mainly use only two papers).

digidog · May 24, 2016

jrkliny said:
technoid said:

I presume you mean that turning down the monitor brightness lets you adjust the image in LR or PS so it will look more like what the print looks like because your print illumination is lower relative to your normal display.

Click to expand...

You presumption is incorrect.

If the monitor is not calibrated, the image will appear to be too blue.

Or too yellow, or too magenta or too dark, or too bright.

I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that a display needs calibration and in the context of this discussion, again, to produce a visual match to the print next to that display, with a print properly illuminated.*

jrkliny said:
With post processing the image can be adjusted so it looks correct on the monitor. If that processed file is printed, it will now be way to red/yellow. If the monitor is correctly color calibrated, then when the displayed image is adjusted to taste, it final print will match.

That's again the goal: WYSIWYG and that can take multiple calibrations per paper, printer, even output ICC profile.

jrkliny said:
The same happens with monitor brightness. If the image on the monitor appears bright because the monitor is set too bright, then processing would set the image so that it prints too dark.

No, the print isn't too dark. The display may be too bright which calibration should fix.

IF one alters RGB values incorrectly, because what they see is a lie, of course a print could be too dark by that result. Again, NOT an issue with a color reference image!

jrkliny said:
If the monitor calibration, including brightness, is correct, the final print will also match the maker's intention.

Yes! But the topic is prints that are presumably too dark from Costco which we first need to determine is actually the case; the display at this point isn't pertinent.

The OP needs to examine the print under differing, 'well behaved' illuminant (*not a 5 watt night light bulb, not a 10,000 watt arch lamp; print would appear TOO light). IF the print is too dark, we know the problem if the print was made with a color reference image. The lab; Costco.

IF it isn't too dark, then it's time to examine IF the print appears too dark compared to the display. We're not there yet.

--
Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

jrkliny · May 24, 2016

technoid said:
.... I ran across a paper that carefully measured this and found that among "normal" color vision people males tend to cluster into 3 groups and females into two groups that are between the male groups. .....

It is unusual to find groups of females with different color perception. The vast majority of women have near perfect color perception. Males are greatly handicapped. At least 4% of males are severely color impaired. Approximately 20% of males have less severe, but significant color perception impairment. The Xrite hue test is of some help identifying color impairments. Those with good acuity should be able to score close to zero for this test:

Ihr Farb-IQ; X-Rite-Farbsehtest

Online-Farbsehtest – schnell, einfach und noch dazu unterhaltsam. Grundlage ist der renommierte Farnsworth-Munsell 100 Hue Test. Jetzt gleich loslegen!

www.xrite.com

There are way better and more sensitive tests than this but none online that I am aware of.

digidog · May 24, 2016

jrkliny said:
jrkliny wrote: The Xrite hue test is of some help identifying color impairments. Those with good acuity should be able to score close to zero for this test:

http://www.xrite.com/online-color-test-challenge

Better have a really good, calibrated display otherwise, not so much.

The test, with the actual tiles is far more telling. But the site above is fun and better than nothing. Just don't put a lot of credence in the results.

jrkliny · May 24, 2016

Member said:
Yes! But the topic is prints that are presumably too dark from Costco which we first need to determine is actually the case; the display at this point isn't pertinent.

The display is the likely culprit. Processing with an overly bright display...which is very common..will result in a dark print.

technoid · May 24, 2016

jrkliny said:
technoid said:

I presume you mean that turning down the monitor brightness lets you adjust the image in LR or PS so it will look more like what the print looks like because your print illumination is lower relative to your normal display.

Click to expand...

You presumption is incorrect.

If the monitor is not calibrated, the image will appear to be too blue. With post processing the image can be adjusted so it looks correct on the monitor. If that processed file is printed, it will now be way too red/yellow. If the monitor is correctly color calibrated, then when the displayed image is adjusted to taste, the final print will match. The same happens with monitor brightness. If the image on the monitor appears bright because the monitor is set too bright, then processing would set the image so that it prints too dark. If the monitor brightness is turned down, then processing will be needed to lighten the image so it looks correct on the monitor.

Of course.

jrkliny said:
I find it is not possible to turn my monitor dark enough to avoid dark prints but I can come pretty close.

If you read my comment, it is consistent with what you are doing which is trying to get a better match for your printed images which will b viewed in fairly low light. The basic rule is that your monitor should be set up to match the color of the viewing light and, more importantly as eyes/brain will white adapt, to match the level of your illuminant.

Monitor cd/m^2 settings should be slightly less than the Lux/Pi.

jrkliny said:
So the image appearance is adjusted with post processing so that it matches the maker's intentions. If the monitor calibration, including brightness, is correct, the final print will also match the maker's intention.

--
Jim, aka camperjim
http://www.specialplacesphoto.com

jrkliny · May 24, 2016

digidog said:
Member said:

jrkliny wrote: The Xrite hue test is of some help identifying color impairments. Those with good acuity should be able to score close to zero for this test:

http://www.xrite.com/online-color-test-challenge

Click to expand...

Better have a really good, calibrated display otherwise, not so much.

The test, with the actual tiles is far more telling. But the site above is fun and better than nothing. Just don't put a lot of credence in the results.

I would put a lot of credence in the results. Anyone who cannot achieve a very low score, has an impairment and will not be able to post process well for those of us who are not color impaired.

It is possible to achieve a low score and still have an color impairment.

I find it interesting to hear from those who are fanatics about monitors and calibration and ICC profiles, but have color vision impairments that undo all of those efforts.

digidog · May 24, 2016

jrkliny said:
digidog said:

Yes! But the topic is prints that are presumably too dark from Costco which we first need to determine is actually the case; the display at this point isn't pertinent.

Click to expand...

The display is the likely culprit. Processing with an overly bright display...which is very common..will result in a dark print.

If I liked to speculate, which I don't, I'd say you're right. And you might be; we don't know.

A display can't make an image print out too dark. I hope the OP gets that and uses a proper testing methodology to figure this all out, without the need to speculate. That means using a color reference image without any need to deal with the display although if it looks overly bright, a good indication that your speculation is correct.

Iliah Borg · May 24, 2016

jrkliny said:
Processing with an overly bright display

and relying on WYSIWYG

jrkliny said:
...which is very common..will result in a dark print.

Eyedropper and Info palette in Photoshop are so old-fashioned

technoid · May 24, 2016

jrkliny said:
technoid said:

.... I ran across a paper that carefully measured this and found that among "normal" color vision people males tend to cluster into 3 groups and females into two groups that are between the male groups. .....

Click to expand...

It is unusual to find groups of females with different color perception. The vast majority of women have near perfect color perception. Males are greatly handicapped. At least 4% of males are severely color impaired. Approximately 20% of males have less severe, but significant color perception impairment. The Xrite hue test is of some help identifying color impairments. Those with good acuity should be able to score close to zero for this test:

No. The paper looked at both women and men with "normal" color vision. It is indeed true that a significant percentage of men have color impaired vision but that wasn't under study.

This is a fairly subtle effect. The study came about because it was noticed that different people with good color vision would see slight differences when an RGB monitor "white" was matched with a "white" from a full spectrum illuminant. Correcting for one group would shift others out of a match.

I found the paper:

Loading…

www.neitzvision.com

http://www.xrite.com/online-color-test-challenge

jrkliny said:
There are way better and more sensitive tests than this but none online that I am aware of.

--
Jim, aka camperjim
http://www.specialplacesphoto.com

digidog · May 24, 2016

jrkliny said:
digidog said:

jrkliny said:

jrkliny wrote: The Xrite hue test is of some help identifying color impairments. Those with good acuity should be able to score close to zero for this test:

http://www.xrite.com/online-color-test-challenge

Click to expand...

Better have a really good, calibrated display otherwise, not so much.

The test, with the actual tiles is far more telling. But the site above is fun and better than nothing. Just don't put a lot of credence in the results.

Click to expand...

I would put a lot of credence in the results. Anyone who cannot achieve a very low score, has an impairment and will not be able to post process well for those of us who are not color impaired.

It is possible to achieve a low score and still have an color impairment.

Or a pisspoor, old, badly calibrated (or not calibrated) display (or non color managed web browser).

You think taking this test would help someone with an overly bright display? I don't. They don't recognize that their display is way too bright, then adjust to make a dark print; this web site isn't going to help them 'see the (too bright) light'.

--
Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

jrkliny · May 24, 2016

Member said:
Or a pisspoor, old, badly calibrated (or not calibrated) display (or non color managed web browser).

You think taking this test would help someone with an overly bright display?

A high percentage of amateur photographers do not calibrate monitors. An overly bright monitor is a very common reason for dark prints. Every uncalibrated monitor I have seen is too bright and too blue.

No, a hue test or color impairment is not likely to have any impact on print darkness.

digidog · May 24, 2016

jrkliny said:
digidog said:

Or a pisspoor, old, badly calibrated (or not calibrated) display (or non color managed web browser).

You think taking this test would help someone with an overly bright display?

Click to expand...

A high percentage of amateur photographers do not calibrate monitors. An overly bright monitor is a very common reason for dark prints. Every uncalibrated monitor I have seen is too bright and too blue.

Great. How many would that be?

jrkliny said:
No, a hue test or color impairment is not likely to have any impact on print darkness.

Again, it's possible. But you're again speculating and I'm not; I'm providing a path the OP can exactly use to get to the bottom of what the problem is.

A dark print could be a poor edit based on a too bright display (NOT with a color reference image!), it could be user error in converting the document if allowed (Costco does allow this), it could be a printer who's calibration is way off or error on the part of the operator. It could be a few of the above.

Fixing this is a bit of detective work where speculation is useless.

Something in a complex workflow is broken. Finding out exactly what that is, without guessing is key.

technoid · May 24, 2016

digidog said:
jrkliny said:

digidog said:

Or a pisspoor, old, badly calibrated (or not calibrated) display (or non color managed web browser).

You think taking this test would help someone with an overly bright display?

Click to expand...

A high percentage of amateur photographers do not calibrate monitors. An overly bright monitor is a very common reason for dark prints. Every uncalibrated monitor I have seen is too bright and too blue.

Click to expand...

Great. How many would that be?

Member said:

No, a hue test or color impairment is not likely to have any impact on print darkness.

Click to expand...

Again, it's possible. But you're again speculating and I'm not; I'm providing a path the OP can exactly use to get to the bottom of what the problem is.

A dark print could be a poor edit based on a too bright display (NOT with a color reference image!), it could be user error in converting the document if allowed (Costco does allow this), it could be a printer who's calibration is way off or error on the part of the operator. It could be a few of the above.

Fixing this is a bit of detective work where speculation is useless.

Something in a complex workflow is broken. Finding out exactly what that is, without guessing is key.

Exactly. Your web tutorials and explanations are really quite good. More that that. I don't know of anything better outside of getting color management books, researching the science behind it, and delving into some subtleties that are more of academic interest and not necessary to have a good, solid, workflow.

Member said:
--
Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

Smi77y · May 25, 2016

So I just learned this and feel super dumb now.

The prints which I thought were too dark, look just fine in direct sunlight.

So I guess my prints are fine? I still need to brighten them up a tad, keep my monitor dimness low, etc. But I guess the scenes I'm creating are just dark in general because I have tons of 4x6 and other prints of my kids that look just fine inside.

digidog · May 25, 2016

Smi77y said:
So I just learned this and feel super dumb now.

Don't! This topic of prints too dark (when they are not) has been miss understood by many for years. As a result, *some* of the advise provided about this issue, are bogus.

Smi77y said:
The prints which I thought were too dark, look just fine in direct sunlight.

Good. Check them with other kinds of illumination that again is 'sound' (not a super dim or super bright light).

Smi77y said:
So I guess my prints are fine? I still need to brighten them up a tad, keep my monitor dimness low, etc.

Calibrate so the two match! My video steps you through the process. View the prints using the best illuminant you can, that's consistent. Control other ambient lighting:

Smi77y said:
But I guess the scenes I'm creating are just dark in general because I have tons of 4x6 and other prints of my kids that look just fine inside.

That's another good sign.

--
Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog

Home

Charles2 · May 25, 2016

Smi77y said:
So I just learned this and feel super dumb now.

The prints which I thought were too dark, look just fine in direct sunlight.

So I guess my prints are fine? I still need to brighten them up a tad, keep my monitor dimness low, etc. But I guess the scenes I'm creating are just dark in general because I have tons of 4x6 and other prints of my kids that look just fine inside.

No need to feel dumb. We learn at some point that one of the most important variables in the appearance of a print is the light under which people view it. And that will indeed vary. When someone advises, "View the prints using the best illuminant you can, that's consistent," that puts a technician's approach ahead of the users' actual situations.

technoid · May 25, 2016

Smi77y said:
So I just learned this and feel super dumb now.

The prints which I thought were too dark, look just fine in direct sunlight.

So I guess my prints are fine? I still need to brighten them up a tad, keep my monitor dimness low, etc. But I guess the scenes I'm creating are just dark in general because I have tons of 4x6 and other prints of my kids that look just fine inside.

This is how I check color management (profile workflow correctness)

Loading…

www.dpreview.com

If you print a Colorchecker image in Absolute Colorimetric the print will match regardless of how bright the light since you view the two images side by side. This is a good way to check color management accuracy.

But it's not the way to make prints normally.

What you were doing is adjusting your images in post processing to accommodate lower light levels and that works fine when viewing images in lower light levels. Most commercial processors of jpegs also lighten up images when they print them. And picking "Perceptual Intent" does the same thing but with a target illumination level of 500 Lux. This boosts the mid-tone and higher but only slightly. For lower levels of light a more enhanced tone curve can improve viewing. That is what you are doing in your post processing.

I also like to break down workflow into two steps. Printing color accuracy, and printing so as to produce the best visual experience and the latter requires boosting the tone curve in the higher luminance levels when the anticipated environment has an lower Lux levels.

The standard Perceptual Intent rendering works pretty well and is designed for 500 Lux. At 2000 Lux, which is used for precision color in the graphic arts, Relative Intent is the norm.

At lower Lux levels, which is much more common in typical home environments, you have to do the tone curve changes yourself.

digidog · May 25, 2016

:-(Charles2 said:
When someone advises, "View the prints using the best illuminant you can, that's consistent," that puts a technician's approach ahead of the users' actual situations.

More late, out of left field, OT comments from Chuck who feels the need to speak without first reading, or comprehending previous technically accurate text (here's at least three posts he missed again.**)

The print viewing conditions next to the display are critical to a display to print match:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57819567

A print is either dark (based on the illuminant, any print is dark viewed with a 5 watt night light bulb) or it's not too dark but this has no direct relationship to a display.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57820279

I don't think anyone here is disagreeing that a display needs calibration and in the context of this discussion, again, to produce a visual match to the print next to that display, with a print properly illuminated.* The OP needs to examine the print under differing, 'well behaved' illuminant (*not a 5 watt night light bulb, not a 10,000 watt arch lamp; print would appear TOO light).

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57822908

Check them with other kinds of illumination that again is 'sound' (not a super dim or super bright light).

View the prints using the best illuminant you can, that's consistent. Control other ambient lighting:

Like the last post on the subject of color management you came into late and posted text that has nothing to do with the subject, all this illustrates is your lack of reading comprehension and the understanding of this topic!

**For those who wish to see Chuck embarrass himself, this thread tree shows him showing up late and again, as he did here, posting text that's both OT and technically incorrect:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/57808004

The reason there's so much ignorance on the subject of color management, is that those who have it are so eager to share it! - The Digital Dog

Charles2 said:
We learn at some point that one of the most important variables in the appearance of a print is the light under which people view it

If you learned it, then you're in agreement: "View the prints using the best illuminant you can, that's consistent," and yet, you've posted against that recommended concept which is rather odd.

Learning is not attained by chance. It must be sought for with ardor and attended to with diligence. -Abigail Adams

--
Andrew Rodney
Author: Color Management for Photographers
The Digital Dog
http://www.digitaldog.net

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