FF vs M43 comparison - not as different as you would think

How does M43 compare to good old fashioned film?
The very best 35mm film is considered equivalent to roughly 24 megapixels; that's with Velvia 50, and mechanically also dependent on the camera's pressure plate. And slide film is significantly less usable DR than any RAW-shooting digital camera made in about the past 10 years--slide film needs to be exposed within a relatively narrow range or else the color shifts are awful.

Tri-X 400 is probably more representative of consumer-grade film and that resolves roughly equivalent to 6-7 MP.

So yeah, we're in the golden age of photographic technology right now.
 
It's simple physics.

The 35mm sensor (36x24mm) is about 4x the area of the 4/3 sensor. That is about a 4x advantage in the "ability to gather light". You can see this using the comparison tool and using a 4x higher ISO for the 35mm sensor camera compared to the 4/3 sensor. I
It's not so easy, as this bigger amount of light has to be distributed to a bigger area.

To get A25-square metre room to the same to the same brightness leves as a100-square metre room, you need just a quarter of the window area. And it's exactly the same with sensors. Otherwise, exposure metres wouldn't work correctly for both medium format and compact cameras.
 
In the real world, the difference is in extra resolution (in most FF cameras, but not all), some extra details, (micro) contrast and subtle color nuances. That is in good light and with well exposed photos at equivalent apertures.
Apart from the res, I'm not convinced these differences are printable or displayable. Which makes them useless.
When lighting dims, FF shows greater muscle by keeping the level of details at higher ISOs. M43 chokes faster and noise creeps in and details are destroyed.
Yup. Although it's not inherent in the format, at the same true apertures, you'd get the same results with FF and MFT (because the ISO would be lower). However it's academic, equivalent lenses are not made. Certainly not with AF.
Then there's DoF control. M43 can come close, but you tend to pay an arm and a leg for it, most often stuck with MF too. Whereas in FF (DSLRs, not mirrorless), once you've made the initial camera body investment, F1.8-2 primes can be had cheap. I love the Nikkor 35 f1.8 and especially the Nikkor 50 f1.8. Awesome bang for the buck.
Yes, a used D600 is the cheap way to get shallow DoF. However at that point you either have two systems or a brick to cart about. I'd rather pay arm plus leg for f1.2 MFT lenses.
 
I used both D800E and GH4 and while the differences were subtle they were there. I have to agree they do not Always show u in print and it seems to me the printer is the limiting factor mostly. I wonder what DR it can print.
Dynamic range on printers is the range between the blackness of the black ink to the whiteness of the paper. A printer can't print darker or lighter than those two extremes, which I've read is 7 to possibly 9 stops equivalent at most.
 
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It's simple physics.

The 35mm sensor (36x24mm) is about 4x the area of the 4/3 sensor. That is about a 4x advantage in the "ability to gather light". You can see this using the comparison tool and using a 4x higher ISO for the 35mm sensor camera compared to the 4/3 sensor. I
It's not so easy, as this bigger amount of light has to be distributed to a bigger area.
Yes, of course. That is what lenses do. That is why 35mm-format lenses tend to be larger than m43-format lenses. (Hence my link.)

I don't argue that one sensor size is better than another. I personally like the camera body and lens sizes that I get with m43, but someone else may fancy the Pentax Q or the Leica SL. To each their own.

Play around with this: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ima...=1&x=0.7082829504232164&y=-1.0584412280504678
 
How does M43 compare to good old fashioned film?
So much better that it is scary just how poor film was to work with.

(Unless I go back and look at slides and prints, it's hard to remember just how good we have it now!)

Sometimes I prefer "the look" I can get from film, but there's no way to avoid the obvious conclusion that -- for the typical photographer at any reasonable price point -- sharpness, contrast, DR, resolution, etc. are all much better now with digital.

Not even close.
 
I'm a committed GX8 shooter, but comparing images at 200 ISO is not especially helpful in doing a comparison. Where differences show up is at higher ISOs: e.g., 6400 and above.
The difference is the same as low iso. 2 stops. People just care more at high iso. And then if they werent pixel peeping and had ever shot film then 25600 on m43 would be a revelation.

--
Auto focus is a work of the devil.
I post from a tablet, spelling errors are common, berry common.
Surprisingly, this is not correct! At base ISO, both systems have similar DR. Only at high ISO there is a clear difference.

I learned recently (by comparing EM1 and A7S on sensorgen.info ) that the FF cameras have alot of read noise. Much more than I thought (OK, I knew that Canon sensors have a lot of read noise, but I was pretty sure SONY would do better).

The read noise of A/S is rising significantly below ISO 6400 and because read noise grows with exposure, the DR stays more or less constant at 12,5EV. EM1 read noise is rising below ISO 800 and gives a signal to noise ratio of 12EV as well.

Therefore, EM1 and A7S do NOT have 2 stops difference in DR at base ISO, in fact, they seem to be very similar.

This might explain why so many mFT users are quite happy with their equipment ...

Christof

--
OM-D + Sam7.5, O25, O60, O75
O12-40, O40-150, P 14-140
M4/3 cameras do quite well at base ISOs....I am very happy with my GX7.

The A7s is not a camera designed for low/base ISOs .....and yet it does STILL have greater DR than any M4/3 camera to date at base.

The a7s is made for high ISO and as the ISO goes up, so does the difference.....by the time the E-M1 maxes out at ISO 25600 it is MORE than two and a half stops behind the A7s for DR for screen and almost two and a half stops for print at DXOmark.....my GX7 is a little worse than the E-M1 too and is more than THREE stops behind at ISO 25600 for screen and almost three stops for print. The A7s is very usable at ISO 25600 and even higher.

Now if you look at other more regular FF cameras .....my A7 for instance, DOES have about two stops DR advantage at base.....and base ISO is ISO 100 with a boost down to ISO 50 with intermediate settings of 80 and 64 for both the A7 and A7s......M4/3 and I am using ISO 200 as my base for the most part still.....

All three cameras have their uses......the A7s is my low light/high ISO and video camera but it also is very nice in the day time ......surprisingly good in fact.

The A7 is simply better (base ISO).

The GX7 is a nice small camera and I love the tilting EVF and touch screen but it is not the "best" camera for image quality.....no M4/3 is.....they are all good ENOUGH though as far as I am concerned and fit for purpose.

The A7 is not the "best" FF camera either in terms of base image quality....again, it will do me (and I prefer it over any DSLR for other reasons....just as many will prefer M4/3 for "other" reasons).

Choice is good.

There is more to it than DR as well.
 
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How does M43 compare to good old fashioned film?
How does the intel i7-5820 in my current PC compare to my long gone much loved commodore 64 :-) . The question being asked in the forum { which crops up nearly every day} is with regard to mFT compared to FF. Which for anyone not hopelessly devoted to mFT is a simple question ,easily answered. If the question was is mFT good enough for almost anything then it is a resounding yes. Despite having an extensive Nikon FF kit my mFT gear gets used the for the majority of my photos. To me mFT are actually a near perfect pair , with each being good where the other is weak.
 
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I'm a committed GX8 shooter, but comparing images at 200 ISO is not especially helpful in doing a comparison. Where differences show up is at higher ISOs: e.g., 6400 and above.
The difference is the same as low iso. 2 stops. People just care more at high iso. And then if they werent pixel peeping and had ever shot film then 25600 on m43 would be a revelation.
 
I'm a committed GX8 shooter, but comparing images at 200 ISO is not especially helpful in doing a comparison. Where differences show up is at higher ISOs: e.g., 6400 and above.
The difference is the same as low iso. 2 stops. People just care more at high iso. And then if they werent pixel peeping and had ever shot film then 25600 on m43 would be a revelation.

--
Auto focus is a work of the devil.
I post from a tablet, spelling errors are common, berry common.
Surprisingly, this is not correct! At base ISO, both systems have similar DR. Only at high ISO there is a clear difference.

I learned recently (by comparing EM1 and A7S on sensorgen.info ) that the FF cameras have alot of read noise. Much more than I thought (OK, I knew that Canon sensors have a lot of read noise, but I was pretty sure SONY would do better).

The read noise of A/S is rising significantly below ISO 6400 and because read noise grows with exposure, the DR stays more or less constant at 12,5EV. EM1 read noise is rising below ISO 800 and gives a signal to noise ratio of 12EV as well.

Therefore, EM1 and A7S do NOT have 2 stops difference in DR at base ISO, in fact, they seem to be very similar.

This might explain why so many mFT users are quite happy with their equipment ...

Christof

--
OM-D + Sam7.5, O25, O60, O75
O12-40, O40-150, P 14-140
M4/3 cameras do quite well at base ISOs....I am very happy with my GX7.

The A7s is not a camera designed for low/base ISOs .....and yet it does STILL have greater DR than any M4/3 camera to date at base.

The a7s is made for high ISO and as the ISO goes up, so does the difference.....by the time the E-M1 maxes out at ISO 25600 it is MORE than two and a half stops behind the A7s for DR for screen and almost two and a half stops for print at DXOmark.....my GX7 is a little worse than the E-M1 too and is more than THREE stops behind at ISO 25600 for screen and almost three stops for print. The A7s is very usable at ISO 25600 and even higher.

Now if you look at other more regular FF cameras .....my A7 for instance, DOES have about two stops DR advantage at base.....and base ISO is ISO 100 with a boost down to ISO 50 with intermediate settings of 80 and 64 for both the A7 and A7s......M4/3 and I am using ISO 200 as my base for the most part still.....

All three cameras have their uses......the A7s is my low light/high ISO and video camera but it also is very nice in the day time ......surprisingly good in fact.

The A7 is simply better (base ISO).

The GX7 is a nice small camera and I love the tilting EVF and touch screen but it is not the "best" camera for image quality.....no M4/3 is.....they are all good ENOUGH though as far as I am concerned and fit for purpose.

The A7 is not the "best" FF camera either in terms of base image quality....again, it will do me (and I prefer it over any DSLR for other reasons....just as many will prefer M4/3 for "other" reasons).

Choice is good.

There is more to it than DR as well.
Thanks for the info. My choice (A7S) was for sure quite extreme (but thats why I choosed this cam in my quick check).

To follow your hints, I went back to sensorgen.info. BUT, I still could not se 2 stops difference at base ISO. Sorry, taking the A7 insteead of A7S, it has a lot of read noise too and therefore a DR of 13.5 at ISO 74, the EM1 has 12,4 at ISO 121. So, the A7 needs 4x more light through the big FF lens and nearly 2x more light for ISO 74, which makles nearly 8x more light to get 1,1 stop more DR. Hmmmm ...

But I can confess that there are many other cameras out there which might fit my or your needs, for example I often look for a friends Pentax or Fuji and sometimes I think about a nice A7 + 35mm setup.

But I wanted to express that at base ISO, the FF advantage is minimal ...
I disagree.

It is not so much with an A7s for instance as an A7 at base ISO but there is a lot more to it than just DR.....I didn't buy the A7s as a camera to use at base ISO......it is just a bonus that it still does as well as it does.

The A7 though is both a very good, good light/base ISO camera as well as being ok at ISO 12800 for me.

That FF mostly uses a stop lower ISO as base can also be a bigger issue than DR (or DR alone).

In good light my A7 (and A7s) will be shooting with a lower ISO than my GX7.....other things will make a difference depending on what my subject is but there IS a difference (and there is even a difference with the A7s at base ISO (but a FAR greater difference at high ISOs).
Christof

--
OM-D + Sam7.5, O25, O60, O75
O12-40, O40-150, P 14-140
 
I disagree.

It is not so much with an A7s for instance as an A7 at base ISO but there is a lot more to it than just DR.....I didn't buy the A7s as a camera to use at base ISO......it is just a bonus that it still does as well as it does.

The A7 though is both a very good, good light/base ISO camera as well as being ok at ISO 12800 for me.

That FF mostly uses a stop lower ISO as base can also be a bigger issue than DR (or DR alone).

In good light my A7 (and A7s) will be shooting with a lower ISO than my GX7.....other things will make a difference depending on what my subject is but there IS a difference (and there is even a difference with the A7s at base ISO (but a FAR greater difference at high ISOs).
I do not understand in which point you disagree.

I said A7 has 1.1 stop advantage needing nearly 8x more light for this. Anything wrong with this calculation, give me a hint ...

Christof
 
I disagree.

It is not so much with an A7s for instance as an A7 at base ISO but there is a lot more to it than just DR.....I didn't buy the A7s as a camera to use at base ISO......it is just a bonus that it still does as well as it does.

The A7 though is both a very good, good light/base ISO camera as well as being ok at ISO 12800 for me.

That FF mostly uses a stop lower ISO as base can also be a bigger issue than DR (or DR alone).

In good light my A7 (and A7s) will be shooting with a lower ISO than my GX7.....other things will make a difference depending on what my subject is but there IS a difference (and there is even a difference with the A7s at base ISO (but a FAR greater difference at high ISOs).
I do not understand in which point you disagree.

I said A7 has 1.1 stop advantage needing nearly 8x more light for this. Anything wrong with this calculation, give me a hint ...

Christof

--
OM-D + Sam7.5, O25, O60, O75
O12-40, O40-150, P 14-140
1.1 stops to A7s, about 2 stops to an A7 seems closer to me.....that is with my GX7, the EM-1 is a little better.
 
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I disagree.

It is not so much with an A7s for instance as an A7 at base ISO but there is a lot more to it than just DR.....I didn't buy the A7s as a camera to use at base ISO......it is just a bonus that it still does as well as it does.

The A7 though is both a very good, good light/base ISO camera as well as being ok at ISO 12800 for me.

That FF mostly uses a stop lower ISO as base can also be a bigger issue than DR (or DR alone).

In good light my A7 (and A7s) will be shooting with a lower ISO than my GX7.....other things will make a difference depending on what my subject is but there IS a difference (and there is even a difference with the A7s at base ISO (but a FAR greater difference at high ISOs).
I do not understand in which point you disagree.

I said A7 has 1.1 stop advantage needing nearly 8x more light for this. Anything wrong with this calculation, give me a hint ...

Christof
 
I disagree.

It is not so much with an A7s for instance as an A7 at base ISO but there is a lot more to it than just DR.....I didn't buy the A7s as a camera to use at base ISO......it is just a bonus that it still does as well as it does.

The A7 though is both a very good, good light/base ISO camera as well as being ok at ISO 12800 for me.

That FF mostly uses a stop lower ISO as base can also be a bigger issue than DR (or DR alone).

In good light my A7 (and A7s) will be shooting with a lower ISO than my GX7.....other things will make a difference depending on what my subject is but there IS a difference (and there is even a difference with the A7s at base ISO (but a FAR greater difference at high ISOs).
I do not understand in which point you disagree.

I said A7 has 1.1 stop advantage needing nearly 8x more light for this. Anything wrong with this calculation, give me a hint ...

Christof

--
OM-D + Sam7.5, O25, O60, O75
O12-40, O40-150, P 14-140
1.1 stops to A7s, about 2 stops to an A7 seems closer to me.....that is with my GX7, the EM-1 is a little better.
I refer to the sonsorgen figures: EM1 12.5, A7S=12.9, A7=13.5. Which is max 1 stop, not 2.

Do you refer to these numbers or to your personal impression (which might be OK, if somehow the camera gives you mor room to work with). But its confusing if we talk about different things ...

Christof

--
OM-D + Sam7.5, O25, O60, O75
O12-40, O40-150, P 14-140
DXOmark as well.


I am not going to get into a back and forth with you.

Again, there is a lot more than just DR.....and for me, the sum of the parts make the FF cameras better in many situations.

On the (very) rare occasions I want the best image quality of my cameras at base ISO I will use my A7. When I want the best in low light, I will use my A7s. When I want to use my GX7 for OTHER reasons, I will take that (and use an appropriate lens to suit in each case.).
 
How does M43 compare to good old fashioned film?
So much better that it is scary just how poor film was to work with.

(Unless I go back and look at slides and prints, it's hard to remember just how good we have it now!)

Sometimes I prefer "the look" I can get from film, but there's no way to avoid the obvious conclusion that -- for the typical photographer at any reasonable price point -- sharpness, contrast, DR, resolution, etc. are all much better now with digital.

Not even close.
Colors, tonality, skin tones, grey scales on B&W, can look very attractive with film. Sometimes. When it is good, it is good.
 
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How does M43 compare to good old fashioned film?
So much better that it is scary just how poor film was to work with.

(Unless I go back and look at slides and prints, it's hard to remember just how good we have it now!)

Sometimes I prefer "the look" I can get from film, but there's no way to avoid the obvious conclusion that -- for the typical photographer at any reasonable price point -- sharpness, contrast, DR, resolution, etc. are all much better now with digital.

Not even close.
Colors, tonality, skin tones, grey scales on B&W, can look very attractive with film. Sometimes. When it is good, it is good.
I agree I sometimes blow the dust of my MF film cameras and shoot some B&W, film does still have a certain something. Though rewarding developing and printing my film can be a bit of pain the backside. Especially now that I no longer have a dedicated darkroom and have set up and dismantle the kit each time.
 
I'm a committed GX8 shooter, but comparing images at 200 ISO is not especially helpful in doing a comparison. Where differences show up is at higher ISOs: e.g., 6400 and above.
The difference is the same as low iso. 2 stops. People just care more at high iso. And then if they werent pixel peeping and had ever shot film then 25600 on m43 would be a revelation.

--
Auto focus is a work of the devil.
I post from a tablet, spelling errors are common, berry common.
Surprisingly, this is not correct! At base ISO, both systems have similar DR. Only at high ISO there is a clear difference.

I learned recently (by comparing EM1 and A7S on sensorgen.info ) that the FF cameras have alot of read noise. Much more than I thought (OK, I knew that Canon sensors have a lot of read noise, but I was pretty sure SONY would do better).

The read noise of A/S is rising significantly below ISO 6400 and because read noise grows with exposure, the DR stays more or less constant at 12,5EV. EM1 read noise is rising below ISO 800 and gives a signal to noise ratio of 12EV as well.

Therefore, EM1 and A7S do NOT have 2 stops difference in DR at base ISO, in fact, they seem to be very similar.

This might explain why so many mFT users are quite happy with their equipment ...
Unfortunately you are mixing two different types of dynamic range.

Read noise at the pixel level and what we call engineering dynamic range need to be normalized for pixel size to make a relevant comparison.

When engineering dynamic range is normalized I call that Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) and DxOMark calls it Landscape Dynamic Range (print not screen).

PDR for the E-M1 and the A7S looks like this (the DxOMark chart is similar):

0079554f7db6424084822eebd1e27118.jpg.png


(From my interactive Photographic Dynamic Range chart.)

The gap is not surprising.
For similar technologies the larger area sensor will always outperform the smaller area one.

BTW, if you are interesting in measurements like input-referred read noise you may want to check out the second section of my site.
It is more up-to-date than the information at sensorgen and the interactive comparison charts are pretty useful.

--
Bill ( Your trusted source for independent sensor data at http://www.photonstophotos.net )
 
Looking at those studio comparisons isn't the best way to decide which is a better choice. FF will always have an advantage when you look at resolution and low light capability. Of course FF comes with cost and weight disadvantages.

For most uses I find that M43 produces excellent results and it in most uses the advantage of FF isn't worth the extra weight. Eventually my FF gear could be sold, depending upon how many situations really require the extra capability.

Having a good tracking PDAF is useful in some situations. Extra FF resolution and low light capability is also useful. That said, I find the OMD image quality and CDAF more than adequate more most shooting. The choice of M43 vs FF isn't the same answer for everyone because individual requirements differ.
 
As others have commented, I'm sure there is a 2 stop difference at all times and in all circumstances.

However, I just bought a G7 with its kit lens for $597 due to $200 off offer from Panasonic. Stayed with m43, so I already have a marvelous normal view (25mm) f/1.4 lens, and the 14-140 f/3.5 which is really quite sharp at f/7 or f/8. The big difference between Sony full frame and my system is that my G7 and those three lenses totals about 60% of the price of just the camera body for the Sony A7Rii. That's a much more important difference for me than the photographic wonderfulness at ISO 6400 and above.

Let me add, I could not quite believe that that A7Rii when introduced compressed raw files, leaving detectable artifacts. The feedback - including on this site - quickly convinced Sony that that was not a good idea. What were they thinking? Well, at least they have quickly come around. It makes me pleased to say that Panasonic has not made such a mistake.
 

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