TZ70 (ZS50) vs TZ60 (ZS40)

I agree, they are very similar in IQ. Though as Dave mentioned, the other features may be a reason to upgrade as well.
Thought some about that, and the GPS on the ZS40 is slow to acquire and gets lost indoors getting confused when it reemerges to open sky. That's been true for me on two ZS models now and I've about given up on using it because GeoTagging with my phone is more accurate and easy (when I remember to turn it on). This would suggest the upgrade for the better grip and better EVF, both of which are important features in my view. For me, though, I don't use the ZS often enough (preferring the smaller LF1 ordinarily) to make the change worthwhile. Others, of course will differ and if a ZS were my primary pocket camera I'd upgrade in a heartbeat.
Good point, L. The ZS has become my primary camera for the most part - second to my iPhone (Man, am I getting lazy!) and that is always a HUGE consideration when considering an upgrade. Also, I have the LX7 as an alternative, particularly for street photography. I still occasionally use my Canon G11 for street shooting too. But overall, I'd say that my ZS40 is my main cam. So I always view an upgrade from that perspective.

I hope the EVF is as good as the EVF that I have for my LX7 - which is a joy to use. I actually use the EVF on the ZS quite often, and not just for bright days. I love the experience of looking through a viewfinder from my early camera days. If the LF had a bit longer reach, I might have bought one, but I love to shoot birds so I need more reach.

I haven't noticed any problem with the grip on the ZS40, but if the ZS50 is somewhat better in that regard, I am sure I'll adapt very quickly.

In terms of image quality, a bit better detail is most important to me. So if I notice that in the upgrade, I'll be particularly happy.

Take care,

Daniel
 
I agree, they are very similar in IQ. Though as Dave mentioned, the other features may be a reason to upgrade as well.
Thought some about that, and the GPS on the ZS40 is slow to acquire and gets lost indoors getting confused when it reemerges to open sky. That's been true for me on two ZS models now and I've about given up on using it because GeoTagging with my phone is more accurate and easy (when I remember to turn it on). This would suggest the upgrade for the better grip and better EVF, both of which are important features in my view. For me, though, I don't use the ZS often enough (preferring the smaller LF1 ordinarily) to make the change worthwhile. Others, of course will differ and if a ZS were my primary pocket camera I'd upgrade in a heartbeat.
I hope the EVF is as good as the EVF that I have for my LX7 - which is a joy to use. I actually use the EVF on the ZS quite often, and not just for bright days. I love the experience of looking through a viewfinder from my early camera days. If the LF had a bit longer reach, I might have bought one, but I love to shoot birds so I need more reach.
The LX7 with external EVF was the camera I've owned that I've enjoyed the most. Pleasure to use; great image quality. But I sold it because when I want something small, which is almost all the time when I travel with my family, I choose the LF1 (rarely need anything longer) and when I can carry a bag I take an ILC, lately G6.
 
I used my ZS40, from the day it was released in the UK, for some 10 months then, sold it about 2 months ago to fund the purchase of the ZS50 which I bought on the day of it's release in the UK, thus I am unable to take any shots with both from the same spot at the same time. I have, however taken thousands of shots with the 40 and hundreds with the 50.

My basis for comment is that last year I did a series of comparison shots with the ZS40/FZ200 at my house (outside) & my local canal marina in Poynton Cheshire. The FZ200 took much better images in every respect than the ZS40 did. sharper, cleaner, better colours.
I've had the FZ200 since early 2013, and the TZ60 since the day it was first available in Australia. And I, too, have shot thousands of images with both cameras. But more than that, I've done controlled comparisons on several occasions. And when both camera are shots at the same fnumber and similar focal lengths, and the output examined at the same display size, they are quite close in terms of performance (in the center of the frame at least), although once the lens on the TZ60 starts closing down and puts it deeper into diffraction territory there are several points in the middle of the zoom range where the FZ200 can then get out in front.

Anyway the point is that my TZ60 seems to be an excellent sample and I've never had any reason to suspect that my FZ200 isn't a great sample either. So how do we explain our somewhat contradictory findings?
It requires a lot of time and a lot of images, real world images, to draw a conclusion. I have hundreds from the ZS50 and thousands from the ZS40 and it is those upon which I base my statements; Test shots of charts and fixed scenes can mislead.
Right. So we're going to call into question the legitimacy of my controlled indoor tests even though the results are actually consistent with what I observed when shooting both cameras outdoors in a range of real-world shooting situations. What's more my findings regarding the slight detail resolution advantage that the TZ60 has is entirely consistent with what generally always happens when you put a higher resolution sensor behind the same lens.

Rather than trying to measure the length worth of our respective organs opinions with grandiose claims of photographic conquests perhaps it makes more sense to put this down to sample variation, and then provide a small note about that possibility alongside our performance characterizations, as I have done in this thread.
 
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I used my ZS40, from the day it was released in the UK, for some 10 months then, sold it about 2 months ago to fund the purchase of the ZS50 which I bought on the day of it's release in the UK, thus I am unable to take any shots with both from the same spot at the same time. I have, however taken thousands of shots with the 40 and hundreds with the 50.

My basis for comment is that last year I did a series of comparison shots with the ZS40/FZ200 at my house (outside) & my local canal marina in Poynton Cheshire. The FZ200 took much better images in every respect than the ZS40 did. sharper, cleaner, better colours.

I have repeated that process with the ZS50/FZ200 and the images from both are virtually identical, with the ZS50 showing less purple fringing than the FZ200 and on balance the ZS50 has the edge. The FZ200 will be on ebay this weekend.

The EVF of the ZS50 is much better than that of the ZS40 and it's worth the upgrade for that alone.

It requires a lot of time and a lot of images, real world images, to draw a conclusion. I have hundreds from the ZS50 and thousands from the ZS40 and it is those upon which I base my statements; Test shots of charts and fixed scenes can mislead.

Dave
The better viewfinder is certainly an attraction. Given that the the main feature of the cameras is the long zoom, have you any view on their ability at full optical zoom, when shooting objects not filling the frame, eg birds. In the tz70 is the aoutofocus more reliable in this situation, or the out of camera results any better? I know from using my Fuji HS25 that such shots are in any event hit and miss, but I would be interested in your impressions. Also, how quickly is the camera ready to shoot again after a burst mode of 4 or 5 shots?

Thanks

A
Andy

I've looked at them from an IQ perspective so the burst thing I've not considered but I would say the ZS40 had a pretty impressive burst mode and I don't think that's changed from the 40 to 50. Auto focus is impressive. V Good

You have to be mindful that this is a travel zoom - a pocketable (or almost) point and shoot with a mega zoom - If you want wildlife stuff at a distance, at fast frames, invest £10k in a FF body and big white lens!
 
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I used my ZS40, from the day it was released in the UK, for some 10 months then, sold it about 2 months ago to fund the purchase of the ZS50 which I bought on the day of it's release in the UK, thus I am unable to take any shots with both from the same spot at the same time. I have, however taken thousands of shots with the 40 and hundreds with the 50.

My basis for comment is that last year I did a series of comparison shots with the ZS40/FZ200 at my house (outside) & my local canal marina in Poynton Cheshire. The FZ200 took much better images in every respect than the ZS40 did. sharper, cleaner, better colours.
I've had the FZ200 since early 2013, and the TZ60 since the day it was first available in Australia. And I, too, have shot thousands of images with both cameras. But more than that, I've done controlled comparisons on several occasions. And when both camera are shots at the same fnumber and similar focal lengths, and the output examined at the same display size, they are quite close in terms of performance (in the center of the frame at least), although once the lens on the TZ60 starts closing down and puts it deeper into diffraction territory there are several points in the middle of the zoom range where the FZ200 can then get out in front.

Anyway the point is that my TZ60 seems to be an excellent sample and I've never had any reason to suspect that my FZ200 isn't a great sample either. So how do we explain our somewhat contradictory findings?
It requires a lot of time and a lot of images, real world images, to draw a conclusion. I have hundreds from the ZS50 and thousands from the ZS40 and it is those upon which I base my statements; Test shots of charts and fixed scenes can mislead.
Right. So we're going to call into question the legitimacy of my controlled indoor tests even though the results are actually consistent with what I observed when shooting both cameras outdoors in a range of real-world shooting situations. What's more my findings regarding the slight detail resolution advantage that the TZ60 has is entirely consistent with what generally always happens when you put a higher resolution sensor behind the same lens.

Rather than trying to measure the length worth of our respective organs opinions with grandiose claims of photographic conquests perhaps it makes more sense to put this down to sample variation, and then provide a small note about that possibility alongside our performance characterizations, as I have done in this thread.
Thank you. You appear to be a pixel peeping nerd observing images at the far end of a fart. I on the other hand am a realist with a simple yet valid opinion. I've concluded, after a lot of photographs, that in my personal, opinion, to which I am entitled, the TZ70 produces better images, on balance ,than the TZ60, from the perspective of the average user. I'm not using it in a studio but out there in the field as it was intended to be used

It's not really worth writing any more words to you than that is it? We are on seperate planets. I am on earth and you? I know not where -probably an asteroid belt in deep space. I have no way of proving the validity of your controlled indoor tests, why you even bother to attempt them is beyond me - did the weather prevent you going outdoors? I don't attempt to make any grandiose claims, only to state a valid (subjective) opinion., albeit without "Ze contolled tests"

Dave
 
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.... it makes more sense to put this down to sample variation, and then provide a small note about that possibility alongside our performance characterizations, as I have done in this thread.
I've been tracking this and other ZS50/TZ70-related threads and that does make the most sense. The degree of sample variation apparent from some reports is a matter for concern -- and I'll be concerned until my ZS50 arrives and I can ring it out. If the results match yours and saudidave's I'll be quite happy.

--
Phil
 
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Thank you. You appear to be a pixel peeping nerd observing images at the far end of a fart. I on the other hand am a realist with a simple yet valid opinion. I've concluded, after a lot of photographs, that in my personal, opinion, to which I am entitled, the TZ70 produces better images, on balance ,than the TZ60, from the perspective of the average user.

It's not really worth writing any more words to you than that is it? We are on seperate planets. I am on earth and you? I no not where -probably an asteroid belt in deep space.

Dave, Cheshire, England. Vision fading fast but aided by lenses!

P.S. Please carry on with your 'controlled' testing - my opinion is derived, as I stated prior to your nerdy repsonse, with use in the field over a protracted period.

P.P.S. I really don't get the sample variation malarkey. It's essentially nonsense - These things are produced under incredibly controlled conditions, whether is in Japan or a Chinese factory. Do you really think a global producer such as Panasonic (or Canon, or Nikon et al) would allow quality variation such as you suggest? I don't think so, the legal potential of that could bring Apple to their knees and they have more cash surplus than the good old U.S. of A.!
Blimey, I nearly responded to your reply to my article, but changed my mind thinking I was being a bit harsh on you, but I see now that my response would have been somewhat mild compared to this stuff. Indeed, I see now that it wasn't even worthy of a response from me.

However, I'll bite a little :-)

A lot of what we see with our own eyes *can* be subjective. And, arguing that one camera is better than another is not as valid as when providing hard evidence over a simple comment.

Now, who would any sane person believe here, an anecdotal comment, or visible evidence in the form of image files under reasonably controlled conditions?

Besides, I believe we have enough wasted goods in the world, if someone is happy using an out of date product, that otherwise performs satisfactorily for *them*, what's the problem there? Just because their equipment doesn't meet someone else's exacting standards, it doesn't mean it has to be discarded.

I've also got a lot of comparison photos here, around 45,000 images over 15 years of shooting with digital, partly with compacts, and partly with DSLR, and not forgetting another 20 years before that using 35mm SLRs. All I can really say here is that very often the technical specifications of the equipment is not necessarily what matters. I have images stored taken with my first digital (an Olympus C960z), at 1.3MP, which are still enjoyable to view, still present a good image, and some of which I printed at A4 size, which looked pretty darned good.

With regards to copy variation, that is indeed a very valid point. It's something that applies to even more expensive equipment than we are talking about here too. Most products are built to tolerances, and those tolerances are adjusted to be able to come down to a given price level for a given product. I have certainly seem it talked about a lot with regards to DSLR lenses in particular, and have seen it myself with some of the products I've owned.

And finally, over the years I have all too often seen arguments about equipment, but all too often the need for better equipment is usually argued by those who have the least knowledge of how to use it properly.
 
Thank you. You appear to be a pixel peeping nerd observing images at the far end of a fart. I on the other hand am a realist with a simple yet valid opinion.
It's the moment that you try to elevate your "simple yet valid opinion" to the status of objective fact (subjectivity, sample variation and the findings of others be damned) that this becomes more than it needs to be. You know, egotistical nonsense instead of reasonable, fruitful discussion.
I've concluded, after a lot of photographs, that in my personal, opinion, to which I am entitled, the TZ70 produces better images, on balance ,than the TZ60, from the perspective of the average user. I'm not using it in a studio but out there in the field as it was intended to be used
This essentially boils down to a false dichotomy, which is that people are either locked away in studios (albeit adhoc ones in cases like this) like hermits or "out there in the field".

However most of the regulars around here know that I get "out in the field" quite a bit and regularly share the fruits of those more wholesome labours.
 
.... it makes more sense to put this down to sample variation, and then provide a small note about that possibility alongside our performance characterizations, as I have done in this thread.
I've been tracking this and other ZS50/TZ70-related threads and that does make the most sense. The degree of sample variation apparent from some reports is a matter for concern -- and I'll be concerned until my ZS50 arrives and I can ring it out. If the results match yours and saudidave's I'll be quite happy.
I suspect that sample variation was a problem for the TZ60 as mine is quite excellent at the long end yet at the same time we had people like Erik Ohlson with a sample so bad that it seemed worse than one of his 18x Casio cameras when cropped to match.
 
Thank you. You appear to be a pixel peeping nerd observing images at the far end of a fart. I on the other hand am a realist.
Not sure the basis for this. Cainn24 provided a number of real-world comparisons shot simultaneously. That's not pixel-peeping, just the opposite. You had mentioned purple fringing, which, in my view, really is ordinarily an issue of pixel peeping. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion--though I'd bet a lot of money that you couldn't reliably tell the images apart in a blind test--but what whatever your opinion, you have it backwards, I think, in criticizing Cainn24.
 
I can supply a “conspiracy theory” if you like. :-)

“There was a slip up in the QA Department with this batch of silver TZ70s. So we can get rid of them we’ll send them off to Australia and we won’t send them any of the all black version that most people would buy.”
Heh. I would have preferred a red one actually. My first look at Panasonic cameras involved an old red/burgundy G1 and I always liked its aesthetic presence. But I generally don't care so much about colour that I will go out of my way to acquire one colour over another. Ted's only got the silver ones in so that's what I ended up with.
 
Thanks for this......I'm not one for the long white lenses myself, I suppose for my next camera I'm trying to decide whether to get a smaller camera with hopefully similar image quality to the HS25, or go for a longer lens such as the nikon p610.....they both have their advantages I guess.
 
Thanks for this......I'm not one for the long white lenses myself, I suppose for my next camera I'm trying to decide whether to get a smaller camera with hopefully similar image quality to the HS25, or go for a longer lens such as the nikon p610.....they both have their advantages I guess.
Some ZS50/TZ70 bird shots here: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55457651

I never get beyond a 600mm EFL in this case because there was no need but I trust that they serve to illustrate that birding with a travelzoom like the TZ70 is certainly possible. I've had many similar successes with the TZ60 as well.
 
.... it makes more sense to put this down to sample variation, and then provide a small note about that possibility alongside our performance characterizations, as I have done in this thread.
I've been tracking this and other ZS50/TZ70-related threads and that does make the most sense. The degree of sample variation apparent from some reports is a matter for concern -- and I'll be concerned until my ZS50 arrives and I can ring it out. If the results match yours and saudidave's I'll be quite happy.
I suspect that sample variation was a problem for the TZ60 as mine is quite excellent at the long end yet at the same time we had people like Erik Ohlson with a sample so bad that it seemed worse than one of his 18x Casio cameras when cropped to match.
All

This is all getting way too technical and deep for me. I've been a keen photographer for more than 50 years. I'm not too fussed by review conclusions. I've seen lots of reviews about all sorts of cameras and I know that its not a studio thing it' s about what you get when you actually use the thing - the camera.

I know (subjective I'm aware) that when I actually use my ZS50 to do it's job, that is record images, out there on the streets of the UK in a crappy winter light, it makes a far better job of it than my ZS40 did. No contest, no doubt, in the real world, outside of a 'controlled' studio with a doll in front of a resolution image chart.

I use my cameras, I don't really analyse deeply, they are my hobby - I conclude, through extensive practical experience which are best. The ZS50 IQ , IMHO extracts the urine from the ZS40 and the user experience regarding the EVF is a quantum leap

Dave.
 
I know (subjective I'm aware) that when I actually use my ZS50 to do it's job, that is record images, out there on the streets of the UK in a crappy winter light, it makes a far better job of it than my ZS40 did. No contest, no doubt, in the real world, outside of a 'controlled' studio with a doll in front of a resolution image chart.
You keep saying things that imply that I only ever evaluate camera performance indoors with subject matter that doesn't exist out in the real world and that therefore your own conclusions are more valid. But again the truth is that I do both. In fact by doing both I have learned which controlled indoor testing scenarios tend to have the most meaningful connection to the results that are achievable in the outside world. In fact when I see differences in controlled conditions I tend to adapt my strategy/shooting style/pre-shot decision making process in an effort to more effectively navigate the range of additional variables that one typically sees when out in the real world in an effort to bring those same differences into focus (quite literally sometimes) when shooting "real" subject matter. I consider this to be pretty essential when it comes to pushing the boundaries of what is possible (such as birding with a travelzoom and actually getting decent results).

In other words controlled indoor tests and actual outdoor photography have never ever been at odds for me. Rather they have always been mutually beneficial endeavours that I think have improved my results.

If you find that a different strategy works best for you, that's perfectly fine. But I really see no good reason for you to continually crap all over mine.
 
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The following images were taken using a sturdy tripod, in calm conditions, with image stabilization disabled, a 10 second timer, both autofocus and manual focus (only AF samples are included here as they were all essentially the same anyway) and 3-shot sequences to ensure the best possible results. Once again the TZ60 samples are the result of configuring it for 12MP output but I have examined the full resolution RAW samples from both cameras to ensure that they tell essentially the same story. Smallest possible focus box for both cameras in 1-area focus mode, dead center of the frame.

First up some shots bang up against full tele:

TZ60, 720mm EFL

TZ60, 720mm EFL

TZ70, 720mm EFL

TZ70, 720mm EFL

Next, backed off a little to a 600mm EFL:

TZ60, 600mm EFL

TZ60, 600mm EFL

TZ70, 600mm EFL

TZ70, 600mm EFL

I'm going to refrain from commenting on these shots myself. I'm simply going to ask the following question: if you were a current owner of a TZ60, had just purchased a TZ70, had run this comparison yourself and ended up with these exact results, what would you be thinking?
 
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I would say, compared side-by-side at 100%, that the TZ70 shots are distinctly "fuzzy" at both 600mm and 720mm, compared with the TZ60 shots which look quite sharp.

I think it just confirms my "conspiracy theory". :-)

Ian
 
I would say, compared side-by-side at 100%, that the TZ70 shots are distinctly "fuzzy" at both 600mm and 720mm, compared with the TZ60 shots which look quite sharp.
Thanks for the feedback. I've sent an email to Panasonic Australia linking them to the same samples along with some further details regarding my recent experiences with the TZ70 and requested an opinion from them on the matter. They actually phoned me last time I ranted at them so we'll see what happens this time :)
I think it just confirms my "conspiracy theory". :-)
Let's flesh it out a little!
  • Chip.de reviews the TZ71 (ZS50) but doesn't control the lighting well enough for the sample shots to be directly comparable to those taken with the TZ60.
  • Ephotozine reviews the TZ70 (ZS50) and also gets the consistency of the lighting a little wrong when compared to their review of the ZS40. They also fail to include any RAW samples like they did for the ZS50's predecessor thereby frustrating any attempts to try to verify Panasonic's performance claims
  • Photographyblog reviews the ZS50 but suddenly decides to change the subject matter they use for the ISO series making it impossible to perform a good comparison with the ZS40 that they reviewed previously
  • Dpreview adds ZS50 samples to their studio comparison tool but shoots them at a different focal length, fnumber and exposure compared to the ZS40 shots so they too are not directly comparable.
  • Imaging Resource fails to do a timely full review of the ZS50 and when quizzed about it states that they are waiting for a final production copy even though everyone else has treated their samples as production-quality (this is actually true)
  • Having carefully engineered this far-reaching obfuscation Panasonic finally releases a batch of substandard silver TZ70 samples on the unsuspecting Australian public
How's that?

(Disclaimer: this is of course just a bit of fun, and nothing more ;) )
 
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I would say, compared side-by-side at 100%, that the TZ70 shots are distinctly "fuzzy" at both 600mm and 720mm, compared with the TZ60 shots which look quite sharp.

I think it just confirms my "conspiracy theory". :-)
Yes, seeing the same here, it does look like what I'd call a bit of 'softness' at the long end.

FWIW, I think this just shows how darned good the TZ60 is. I've seen shots like the ones from the TZ70 off DSLRs with shorter zooms than that.

No idea about the conspiracy theory though, I don't go with those much as a concept ;-)
 
All

This is all getting way too technical and deep for me. I've been a keen photographer for more than 50 years. I'm not too fussed by review conclusions. I've seen lots of reviews about all sorts of cameras and I know that its not a studio thing it' s about what you get when you actually use the thing - the camera.

I know (subjective I'm aware) that when I actually use my ZS50 to do it's job, that is record images, out there on the streets of the UK in a crappy winter light, it makes a far better job of it than my ZS40 did. No contest, no doubt, in the real world, outside of a 'controlled' studio with a doll in front of a resolution image chart.

I use my cameras, I don't really analyse deeply, they are my hobby - I conclude, through extensive practical experience which are best. The ZS50 IQ , IMHO extracts the urine from the ZS40 and the user experience regarding the EVF is a quantum leap
Exactly the same as myself Dave, I have only been a 'hobbyist' too. Likewise, can only conclude based on what I see. And from that, I try to make that clear that whatever I comment on is based only on what I see. You also have to accept that what others see may be different.

I'm happy that you've got a great upgrade, and you're liking what you get from the new camera. However, please accept that others may well be happy with the model they own too, and that their priorities may be different.

The OP made it clear that the original shots were only a starting point. It does also make sense to try and make a consistent comparison when doing a test such as this for presenting to others. Anecdotal conclusions can be useful, but not really something to use when deciding on a purchase.

To be honest, coming down from using DSLRs in the past, I think arguing over compacts in such a vehement fashion is like a couple of sparrows arguing over who's stale bread tidbit is the best, when a piece of fresh bread is clearly better. For me, I've accepted compromise in IQ for other features, and as such I don't really see much point in spending a considerable sum on a newer model that offers questionable benefits to me.

Although we can always argue that one camera is better than another in conversation, it will never be more than anecdotal. We can take your word for it that as far as you're concerned your TZ70 is better than your TZ60. But that doesn't mean that everyone's TZ70 will appear better than a TZ60 to them.

It doesn't help to be rude to someone that's posted comparison images, and taken time and bother to present a reasonable review of the two cameras using images from both cameras using identical subjects.
 

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