Very, very bad Canon day

DavidP #28649 · Jul 8, 2003

It should be plain as day that you know what you're doing.

You said that you've taken many similar shots with the D60 and rarely encountered OOF shots that weren't your fault.

Now with the 10D you're getting markedly different results.

You obviously know your way around the Canon system, how to choose a single AF point, when to turn off IS, etc.

So, where's the user error?

You say that the AF performs well on standard AF tests. That means it's not a calibration issue.

The issue in your case is clearly one of the AF sensor being larger then the red square.

Even the 1D AF sensor is too large sometimes.

You'll have to learn to be very careful where you place the AF sensor. In this example, you might've been OK if you'd put the sensor a bit further left. I say might, because it's possible the bird is simply too small in this case.

I have the same problem sometimes. How can you focus on the eye, when the AF sensor is so big it will always pick up the nose?

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

daytontp · Jul 8, 2003

Anybody noitce the poster is not defending their thread????

Ravalls said:
I'd like to voice my problems with Canon. The story is so long that
it is easier to write it in numbers.

1. I bought a 10D, Sigma 15-30 and Canon 28-135 IS two weeks ago.

2. The 28-135 focused wherever: back, front, you name it. Mostly
back, though.
Even the tests were bad, but it was a lot worse in real life
shooting. My theory is that the AF system is "hysterical" - it
seems to overreact to all kinds of stimuli. I used EOS 3's for
several years and never saw anything like this.

3. I got a replacement body from the store. The problem was the same.

4. The outsourced Canon service in Finland changed the 28-135
bayonet and adjusted the lens.

5. First time I tried to take a picture after the service, 10D
focusing was dead. It didn't focus with any lens anymore.

6. I got a second replacement body from the store. The focus is now
on the front edge of DOF, so I have to take it back.

7. I just made a big studio job with the 28-135. Unbelievably soft
pics at f/20 - barely usable with lots of sharpening. The lens goes
to f/36 at 135 mm, so it wasn't the smallest aperture.

8. A kind of humorous sidenote: the service company lost my 256 mg
memory card and refused to replace it, because I couldn't prove I
didn't lose it myself.

The only thing keeping me a Canon customer is the CMOS chip that
produces beautiful colours. I don't like the overall feel of the
the CCD on Nikon D100. I wouldn't like to change to the two-battery
Fuji, but maybe I have to test the S2 anyway.

I want to warn everybody on the market for a DSLR. A new set of
numbers:

1. Problems are possible. Doublecheck the small print about
warranty and service.

2. Many people here belittle the focus issue. It does exist. Oh
boy, does it exist!!!

3. Don't buy a 10D or any digicam without trying it out. I suggest
taking several flash pics of somebodys face. Preferably check the
results on your computer and at least by zooming in the LCD of the
camera. The eye lashes MUST be totally sharp. Reject both the
camera and the lens if you see softness or uneven results: soft,
sharp, soft.

4. Canon has a sterling reputation, but there is something fishy
going on now. The company has produced three questionable prosumer
products in a row (30, 60 and now 10D), but they refuse to
acknowledge any problems. Be critical, be wary.

5. The 28-135 IS lens seem to have serious problems. If a lens
needs adjustment and a bayonet change right out of the box and
still produces mush, there are at least individual lemons in the
market.

6. Kill your enthusiasm! Sorry to say this, but DSLR-products are
clearly not matured yet. Don't expect to rise to seventh heaven
with 4000 euros - you are not guaranteed to get perfection. If you
can wait, wait.
If you can afford the Canon pro stuff, buy it. I loathe the idea of
forking out around 15 000 euros for a 1Ds and L-lens kit, but maybe
that's what I have to do, eventually.

Regards,

Ravalls

--

'More people shoot Nikon than all other companies combined'. quote from 2003 Nikon Presentation. http://www.pbase.com/daytontp/

John Mankos · Jul 8, 2003

Joe Reilly said:
John Mankos said:

....the focus point is just bigger than what we're seeing,
which explains this shot. (and alot of my bird shots)

Click to expand...

Does it? My understanding is that the 10D will focus on the
closest subject it can find. Assuming it saw some grass in the
background, that doesn't explain why it focused there. There is
more than sufficient contrast on the robin to drive the AF. I'm
with you, this is not user error. I just wonder about your
conclusion. It looks like garden-variety back-fous to me. Please
let me know thoughts.

Thanks,
Joe

I wish I could say that was the case....but on most objects it focuses fine....just when I get to little things like birds it gets confused....where my D60 never did.

You would THINK that it should focus on the closest subject if there are several possibilities....but I'm not sure that's what it's actually doing.

RodneyK above pointed to a link to the patent on Canon's AF systems.....when I have time late tonight I plan to read it thoroughly so I can understand it better.

--
John
http://www.mankman.com
Canon EOS 10D
Canon Powershot S30
Sony DSC-F707

Equipment list in profile...subject to change on a daily basis ;^)

Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together

DavidP #28649 · Jul 8, 2003

Put it in terms a lazy engineer can understand.

John Mankos said:
Never, ever once occured to me to check the patent website.

I'll read this tonight after I'm done with work.....

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

DavidP #28649 · Jul 8, 2003

If you want to solve that problem, just use AI-Servo mode.

Assuming you don't recompose, that is.

Mark Gillett said:
I think that many people feel that technology will take care of all
the variables, but this is just not the case. One still need to
learn to use the new advanced systems that are thrown at us and
there will always be problems because they are desinged by humans!

I am sorry to hear you have had issues with yours and hope you
resolve them because there are also many happy dslr owners out
there.

Yours

Mark

Ravalls said:

I'd like to voice my problems with Canon. The story is so long that
it is easier to write it in numbers.

1. I bought a 10D, Sigma 15-30 and Canon 28-135 IS two weeks ago.

2. The 28-135 focused wherever: back, front, you name it. Mostly
back, though.
Even the tests were bad, but it was a lot worse in real life
shooting. My theory is that the AF system is "hysterical" - it
seems to overreact to all kinds of stimuli. I used EOS 3's for
several years and never saw anything like this.

3. I got a replacement body from the store. The problem was the same.

4. The outsourced Canon service in Finland changed the 28-135
bayonet and adjusted the lens.

5. First time I tried to take a picture after the service, 10D
focusing was dead. It didn't focus with any lens anymore.

6. I got a second replacement body from the store. The focus is now
on the front edge of DOF, so I have to take it back.

7. I just made a big studio job with the 28-135. Unbelievably soft
pics at f/20 - barely usable with lots of sharpening. The lens goes
to f/36 at 135 mm, so it wasn't the smallest aperture.

8. A kind of humorous sidenote: the service company lost my 256 mg
memory card and refused to replace it, because I couldn't prove I
didn't lose it myself.

The only thing keeping me a Canon customer is the CMOS chip that
produces beautiful colours. I don't like the overall feel of the
the CCD on Nikon D100. I wouldn't like to change to the two-battery
Fuji, but maybe I have to test the S2 anyway.

I want to warn everybody on the market for a DSLR. A new set of
numbers:

1. Problems are possible. Doublecheck the small print about
warranty and service.

2. Many people here belittle the focus issue. It does exist. Oh
boy, does it exist!!!

3. Don't buy a 10D or any digicam without trying it out. I suggest
taking several flash pics of somebodys face. Preferably check the
results on your computer and at least by zooming in the LCD of the
camera. The eye lashes MUST be totally sharp. Reject both the
camera and the lens if you see softness or uneven results: soft,
sharp, soft.

4. Canon has a sterling reputation, but there is something fishy
going on now. The company has produced three questionable prosumer
products in a row (30, 60 and now 10D), but they refuse to
acknowledge any problems. Be critical, be wary.

5. The 28-135 IS lens seem to have serious problems. If a lens
needs adjustment and a bayonet change right out of the box and
still produces mush, there are at least individual lemons in the
market.

6. Kill your enthusiasm! Sorry to say this, but DSLR-products are
clearly not matured yet. Don't expect to rise to seventh heaven
with 4000 euros - you are not guaranteed to get perfection. If you
can wait, wait.
If you can afford the Canon pro stuff, buy it. I loathe the idea of
forking out around 15 000 euros for a 1Ds and L-lens kit, but maybe
that's what I have to do, eventually.

Regards,

Ravalls

Click to expand...

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Mark Gillett · Jul 8, 2003

Thanks, I had not tried this yet but had considered it. Have you had the same problem?
M

DavidP said:
Assuming you don't recompose, that is.

Mark Gillett said:

I think that many people feel that technology will take care of all
the variables, but this is just not the case. One still need to
learn to use the new advanced systems that are thrown at us and
there will always be problems because they are desinged by humans!

I am sorry to hear you have had issues with yours and hope you
resolve them because there are also many happy dslr owners out
there.

Yours

Mark

Ravalls said:

I'd like to voice my problems with Canon. The story is so long that
it is easier to write it in numbers.

1. I bought a 10D, Sigma 15-30 and Canon 28-135 IS two weeks ago.

2. The 28-135 focused wherever: back, front, you name it. Mostly
back, though.
Even the tests were bad, but it was a lot worse in real life
shooting. My theory is that the AF system is "hysterical" - it
seems to overreact to all kinds of stimuli. I used EOS 3's for
several years and never saw anything like this.

3. I got a replacement body from the store. The problem was the same.

4. The outsourced Canon service in Finland changed the 28-135
bayonet and adjusted the lens.

5. First time I tried to take a picture after the service, 10D
focusing was dead. It didn't focus with any lens anymore.

6. I got a second replacement body from the store. The focus is now
on the front edge of DOF, so I have to take it back.

7. I just made a big studio job with the 28-135. Unbelievably soft
pics at f/20 - barely usable with lots of sharpening. The lens goes
to f/36 at 135 mm, so it wasn't the smallest aperture.

8. A kind of humorous sidenote: the service company lost my 256 mg
memory card and refused to replace it, because I couldn't prove I
didn't lose it myself.

The only thing keeping me a Canon customer is the CMOS chip that
produces beautiful colours. I don't like the overall feel of the
the CCD on Nikon D100. I wouldn't like to change to the two-battery
Fuji, but maybe I have to test the S2 anyway.

I want to warn everybody on the market for a DSLR. A new set of
numbers:

1. Problems are possible. Doublecheck the small print about
warranty and service.

2. Many people here belittle the focus issue. It does exist. Oh
boy, does it exist!!!

3. Don't buy a 10D or any digicam without trying it out. I suggest
taking several flash pics of somebodys face. Preferably check the
results on your computer and at least by zooming in the LCD of the
camera. The eye lashes MUST be totally sharp. Reject both the
camera and the lens if you see softness or uneven results: soft,
sharp, soft.

4. Canon has a sterling reputation, but there is something fishy
going on now. The company has produced three questionable prosumer
products in a row (30, 60 and now 10D), but they refuse to
acknowledge any problems. Be critical, be wary.

5. The 28-135 IS lens seem to have serious problems. If a lens
needs adjustment and a bayonet change right out of the box and
still produces mush, there are at least individual lemons in the
market.

6. Kill your enthusiasm! Sorry to say this, but DSLR-products are
clearly not matured yet. Don't expect to rise to seventh heaven
with 4000 euros - you are not guaranteed to get perfection. If you
can wait, wait.
If you can afford the Canon pro stuff, buy it. I loathe the idea of
forking out around 15 000 euros for a 1Ds and L-lens kit, but maybe
that's what I have to do, eventually.

Regards,

Ravalls

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Jason Conner · Jul 8, 2003

I think that the "focus issues" are due to two factors. (1) Users are not using AF targets with sufficient contrast. (2) Canon loosened up the AF on the 10D to make it lock more readily, as opposed to "hunting around" more as it does on the D60 - more "hunting around" is more accurate, but takes longer, which users also complained about.

Here is an example, using the tip of a patio overhang with a tree in the background. The aperture is minimized to exaggerate the plane of focus.

As you can see, the AF point is dead-on the wood, but AF chose the branches instead:

If you move the focus point to a higher contrast point, like the line between sun and shade, AF picks it perfectly:

It even does it correctly with a small fraction in the AF box:

Here's the same shot again, with a 28-70mm L instead of a 28-135mm IS:

10D AF goes for the highest contrast are in the AF box and, failing that, the highest contrast area near the AF box. This is Canon's answer to the "slow AF" problem, which BTW is also solved by carefully selecting your AF target. AF works by contrast detection, not telepathy.

Mark Gillett said:
... I think that many people feel that technology will take care of all
the variables, but this is just not the case. One still need to
learn to use the new advanced systems that are thrown at us and
there will always be problems because they are desinged by humans!
...

DavidP #28649 · Jul 8, 2003

Possibly, but I think it's more that performers tend to sway back and forth a little bit. Same problem, just on the subject side.

It makes it tough to focus/recompose, though.

Mark Gillett said:
Thanks, I had not tried this yet but had considered it. Have you
had the same problem?

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

DavidP #28649 · Jul 8, 2003

Contrast is generated by having a light area next to a darker area.

Your pictures seem to show that the focus picks the brighter of the two areas to focus.

It's not choosing the closer one or the farthest one, but the brightest one.

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

jlongo · Jul 8, 2003

1 caveat about portrait focus, if your DOF is so shallow that only the eyes are sharply focused, I recomend you use manual focus unless you are so tight that the camera CAN'T focus on the nose, leaving the eyes soft. In other words, only the eye is in the focus point!
--
The older I get, the better I was.
Joe

Rune Moberg · Jul 8, 2003

DavidP said:
I have the same problem sometimes. How can you focus on the eye,
when the AF sensor is so big it will always pick up the nose?

If this AF system is inherited from a film based body... Surely they need to shrink the AF sensor size?

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/

Jason Conner · Jul 8, 2003

That's correct - AF works by TTL contrast detection. It does not include an ultrasonic or laser range finder - it's only guessing at how far away the object appears to be base on edge detection algorithms and focusing accordingly.

It looks to me like it picks the highest contrast area within the AF box. The contrast between the sun/shade line is greater than that between the leaves/branches/sky/shade lines.

I think the kicker is that, instead of hunting around if what's in the AF box is "unclear" to AF, it starts looking outside the box a bit and locks on that. This means that AF can lock on something that's outside the box if it's "contrastier" than what's in the box.

That means you just have to carefully pick your AF point, just as it was with the D60. It's the same issue, just another angle. I bet that most AF cameras make similar trade-offs, and consumer digicams in-particular are skewed towards max DoF to maximize "in focus" pictures (and punt this sort of issue).

DavidP said:
Contrast is generated by having a light area next to a darker area.

Your pictures seem to show that the focus picks the brighter of the
two areas to focus.

It's not choosing the closer one or the farthest one, but the
brightest one.

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and
tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

DavidP #28649 · Jul 8, 2003

Except they made the AF sensor bigger with the 10D, it seems. That makes it tougher, esp. when you have small targets.

Jason Conner said:
That means you just have to carefully pick your AF point, just as
it was with the D60. It's the same issue, just another angle. I
bet that most AF cameras make similar trade-offs, and consumer
digicams in-particular are skewed towards max DoF to maximize "in
focus" pictures (and punt this sort of issue).

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

DavidP #28649 · Jul 8, 2003

Take the EOS-1v and the EOS-1D. They use the exact same AF layout and AF sensor size.

Sensors on both cameras are looking through the exact same lens. Thus, the multiplier doesn't really matter.

On the other hand, you'll be using a wider lens on the 1D, which means the AF sensor will be looking through a wider lens, seeing a bigger area.

So, I guess you're right.

Rune Moberg said:
If this AF system is inherited from a film based body... Surely
they need to shrink the AF sensor size?

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

John Mankos · Jul 8, 2003

Jason Conner said:
I think the kicker is that, instead of hunting around if what's in
the AF box is "unclear" to AF, it starts looking outside the box a
bit and locks on that. This means that AF can lock on something
that's outside the box if it's "contrastier" than what's in the box.

So if it's looking 'outside the box' (he he) then it's pretty much useless for a small dark colored object (like a bird) against a bright background...

And if it wouldn't look outside the box....we'd probably have slower AF.

Catch 22 if you ask me.....

Those were interesting examples you posted, Jason.....I have a D60 on the way I'll have to see how the two perform on subjects similar to what you posted.

--
John
http://www.mankman.com
Canon EOS 10D
Canon Powershot S30
Sony DSC-F707

Equipment list in profile...subject to change on a daily basis ;^)

Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together

Chris Crossed · Jul 8, 2003

Looking at his posting history, he doesn't post every day. Not everyone lives and breathes DPReview and feels the need to lurk and post the forums religiously.

daytontp said:
Anybody noitce the poster is not defending their thread????

Ravalls · Jul 8, 2003

I just came back from a job in an operafestival. There has been some abuse in the thread, but I guess that is just par for the course.

Anyway, my aggrevated posting was meant to be like a vote in an election: one voice among the many. Personally I have found this kind of horror stories useful, because they keep me on my toes when giving out my money.

About my problems: yes, I have the body number three now, but that is a bit misleading. Number two was only a backup from the store that exhibited the same LENS problem as number one.

Number one died on the operating table, so actually I have now number two.

The other problems are still the same. I just checked my pics (sorry, can't post them from here) and the 28-135 is mostly messy and my Sigma 15-30 variates between splendid and badly backfocused.

I also talked with the festival photographer, who was using 10D. He had had it serviced once and was really bitter about it. "This job is difficult enough without unreliable gear" was his comment. He was very happy with his D60, though, and recommended it to me.

I am quite uncertain at this moment. The 10D colours are WONDERFUL and when the pic is sharp, the quality at ISO 800 is superb. I would hate to change to another brand and I dread the price and weight of 1Ds kit.

Any suggestions?

By the way, I got a message that Canon will give me another memory card to replace the lost one.

Regards,

Ravalls
still Canonman

Rune Moberg · Jul 8, 2003

DavidP said:
On the other hand, you'll be using a wider lens on the 1D, which
means the AF sensor will be looking through a wider lens, seeing a
bigger area.

But I expect the effect is not as pronounced as with a 1.6x body...

So far the only AF complaints I've seen wrt the 1D is that the 1Ds' focus points are more centered than the 1D due to the bigger viewfinder. Can't have it all I guess!

DavidP #28649 said:
So, I guess you're right.

Well, a blind chick finds the odd grain sometimes too...

But if I am, then how come the D60 is now apparently perceived as 'better' in situations where there's enough light for D60's AF to work? Didn't you mention that you thought the 10D has a bigger sensor compared to the D60? Does that imply that there's a film based EOS body somewhere with incredible portrait focus abilities?

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/

Rune Moberg · Jul 8, 2003

Jason Conner said:
I think the kicker is that, instead of hunting around if what's in
the AF box is "unclear" to AF, it starts looking outside the box a
bit and locks on that. This means that AF can lock on something
that's outside the box if it's "contrastier" than what's in the box.

This again assumes some form of 'intelligence' on the AF's part and to me suggests a sensor outside the sensor...

Either that or the AF point is simply bigger than what's indicated by the red rectangle. (maybe something in your experiment eliminates this possibility -- but I pose the question anyway)

Interesting pictures though. I'm tempted to post a link in Rob Galbraith's forums and see if anyone there (i.e. Chuck) will offer some clues.

--
Rune, http://runesbike.com/

DavidP #28649 · Jul 8, 2003

I would think that a bigger AF sensor would actually be better in terms of raw performance

The problem is when you need to pick out small areas of contrast surrounded by other contrasty areas.

--
The Lowest Paid Concert Photographer Around
http://www.neonlightsimaging.com/artshow/final.htm
Photography -- just another word for compromise

'Since we can't keep crime in check, why don't we legalize it and tax it out of business?' -- Will Rogers

Very, very bad Canon day

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