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Sony branded medium format camera?

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madeinxyz

madeinxyz

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Hello folks,

I was playing around with my Mamiya 645 Pro TL and my A7s and I started wondering why there is no 'Sony' branded Medium Format camera. We know that Sony has been making medium format sensor for a long time now. Is the market segment too narrow for Sony to penetrate with its own camera? Maybe I'm just misinformed.

Have a splendid day,

Mike
 
There was a rumor that Sony will release one this year or later.
 
madeinxyz said:
Hello folks,

I was playing around with my Mamiya 645 Pro TL and my A7s and I started wondering why there is no 'Sony' branded Medium Format camera. We know that Sony has been making medium format sensor for a long time now. Is the market segment too narrow for Sony to penetrate with its own camera? Maybe I'm just misinformed.

Have a splendid day,

Mike
Click to expand...
 
madeinxyz said:
Hello folks,

I was playing around with my Mamiya 645 Pro TL and my A7s and I started wondering why there is no 'Sony' branded Medium Format camera. We know that Sony has been making medium format sensor for a long time now. Is the market segment too narrow for Sony to penetrate with its own camera? Maybe I'm just misinformed.

Have a splendid day,

Mike
Click to expand...
 
Now that you mention it. A quick google search revealed this:

Loading…

photorumors.com

What a coincidence that this thought occurred to me while playing around with a Mamiya and a Sony. =))

Cheers!
 
zuikokiuz said:
i hope the release a7000 first
Click to expand...
Do you know I must be feeling particularly charitable this morning. I will allow them to call the new camera the A6100 or A7000 so long as they do it soon. Paraphrasing an unknown author: Grant me patience...but please hurry up.
 
[No message]
 
  • Optimistic: They are already producing an excellent medium format sensor which Pentax is using in the 645Z. I have the 645z, and lemme tell ya, the sensor is kind of astonishing, DR and high iso.
  • Pessimistic: the ground is shifting under camera makers, and I have a sense that Sony is scrambling to find the right mix just now. Not sure if medium format would really be a big win for Sony. This is not a knock on Sony----they are doing better than other makers imo. But still, things are not looking happy for camera makers these days.
  • Optimistic: the market outlook is probably best for higher end gear. It's the average user that is turning away from cameras and moving to phones.
  • Pessimistic: are there enough of us higher end users to justify another high end product, which a medium format camera would certainly be?
  • Optimistic: Sony has shown itself to be disruptive and experimental. A digital Mamiya 7 styled camera currently doesn't exist in the market. Sony would have this niche, albeit small, all to itself if it moves fast (before Fuji or Mamiya, both of whom have a long history in that niche in film), and they have the sensor now.
  • Pessimistic: Sony is not an optics-centric company, and has no experience/legacy with medium format lenses.
  • Optimistic: Sony has not only shown its willingness to partner with other companies (uhh, such as Zeiss, with plenty of experience in medium format lenses!), but has demonstrated an openness towards the use of other manufacturer's legacy glass that is at least remarkable if not astonishing. No other maker has demonstrated such openness.
  • Optimistic: the rumor of a potential Mamiya 7 styled camera was floated last year and was deemed relatively solid.
  • Pessimistic: Sony has gotten awfully quiet about new releases---see the second bullet point above---after several years of startling releases coming pretty fast and furious.
  • Optimistic: But Sony seems to have been using its giant size as a way to leverage a "spaghetti" strategy with new products: throw it against the wall and see what sticks. Maybe they are about to dial things in---the improvements in the A7II seem to point to that.
Overall I'm still optimistic, because really the pieces of the puzzle are all there. But I am not as optimistic as I was last summer, because the camera markets are so much worse---it's not just P&S camera sales that are dropping.

--
tex_andrews, co-founder and webmaster of The LightZone Project, an all-volunteer group providing the free and open source LightZone photo editing software. Personal website: www.texandrewsart.com
"Photography is the product of complete alienation" Marcel Proust
"I would like to see photography make people despise painting until something else will make photography unbearable." Marcel Duchamp
 
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tex said:
  • Optimistic: They are already producing an excellent medium format sensor which Pentax is using in the 645Z. I have the 645z, and lemme tell ya, the sensor is kind of astonishing, DR and high iso.
  • Pessimistic: the ground is shifting under camera makers, and I have a sense that Sony is scrambling to find the right mix just now. Not sure if medium format would really be a big win for Sony. This is not a knock on Sony----they are doing better than other makers imo. But still, things are not looking happy for camera makers these days.
  • Optimistic: the market outlook is probably best for higher end gear. It's the average user that is turning away from cameras and moving to phones.
  • Pessimistic: are there enough of us higher end users to justify another high end product, which a medium format camera would certainly be?
  • Optimistic: Sony has shown itself to be disruptive and experimental. A digital Mamiya 7 styled camera currently doesn't exist in the market. Sony would have this niche, albeit small, all to itself if it moves fast (before Fuji or Mamiya, both of whom have a long history in that niche in film), and they have the sensor now.
  • Pessimistic: Sony is not an optics-centric company, and has no experience/legacy with medium format lenses.
  • Optimistic: Sony has not only shown its willingness to partner with other companies (uhh, such as Zeiss, with plenty of experience in medium format lenses!), but has demonstrated an openness towards the use of other manufacturer's legacy glass that is at least remarkable if not astonishing. No other maker has demonstrated such openness.
  • Optimistic: the rumor of a potential Mamiya 7 styled camera was floated last year and was deemed relatively solid.
  • Pessimistic: Sony has gotten awfully quiet about new releases---see the second bullet point above---after several years of startling releases coming pretty fast and furious.
  • Optimistic: But Sony seems to have been using its giant size as a way to leverage a "spaghetti" strategy with new products: throw it against the wall and see what sticks. Maybe they are about to dial things in---the improvements in the A7II seem to point to that.
Overall I'm still optimistic, because really the pieces of the puzzle are all there. But I am not as optimistic as I was last summer, because the camera markets are so much worse---it's not just P&S camera sales that are dropping.
Click to expand...
Nice post, Tex. I have an angels/pinhead question. Is 33x44 medium format? "Super 35" is already taken (and it's 24.9x18.7).

Jim
 
tex said:
  • Optimistic: They are already producing an excellent medium format sensor which Pentax is using in the 645Z. I have the 645z, and lemme tell ya, the sensor is kind of astonishing, DR and high iso.
  • Pessimistic: the ground is shifting under camera makers, and I have a sense that Sony is scrambling to find the right mix just now. Not sure if medium format would really be a big win for Sony. This is not a knock on Sony----they are doing better than other makers imo. But still, things are not looking happy for camera makers these days.
  • Optimistic: the market outlook is probably best for higher end gear. It's the average user that is turning away from cameras and moving to phones.
  • Pessimistic: are there enough of us higher end users to justify another high end product, which a medium format camera would certainly be?
  • Optimistic: Sony has shown itself to be disruptive and experimental. A digital Mamiya 7 styled camera currently doesn't exist in the market. Sony would have this niche, albeit small, all to itself if it moves fast (before Fuji or Mamiya, both of whom have a long history in that niche in film), and they have the sensor now.
  • Pessimistic: Sony is not an optics-centric company, and has no experience/legacy with medium format lenses.
  • Optimistic: Sony has not only shown its willingness to partner with other companies (uhh, such as Zeiss, with plenty of experience in medium format lenses!), but has demonstrated an openness towards the use of other manufacturer's legacy glass that is at least remarkable if not astonishing. No other maker has demonstrated such openness.
  • Optimistic: the rumor of a potential Mamiya 7 styled camera was floated last year and was deemed relatively solid.
  • Pessimistic: Sony has gotten awfully quiet about new releases---see the second bullet point above---after several years of startling releases coming pretty fast and furious.
  • Optimistic: But Sony seems to have been using its giant size as a way to leverage a "spaghetti" strategy with new products: throw it against the wall and see what sticks. Maybe they are about to dial things in---the improvements in the A7II seem to point to that.
Overall I'm still optimistic, because really the pieces of the puzzle are all there. But I am not as optimistic as I was last summer, because the camera markets are so much worse---it's not just P&S camera sales that are dropping.

--
Click to expand...
Sony have a working relationship with Zeiss where they actually handle most/all of the production and they of course bought out Minolta but they don't really have a history of working with indepenant producers that closely. Indeed I think part of the reason for going mirrorless in the first place is to cut out competition from Sigma, Tamron, etc.

I feel that the size advantages of mirrorless MF are rather overstated as well. Part of the reason digital medium format bodies tend to be large its firstly because there modular systems produced by relatively small companies(less money for miniaturisation) and partly because there using legacy flange distances from full 645 film sizes.

Just look at the difference in depth(above view( between the Pentax 645 and the Leica S system that uses a flange distances designed for its smaller than 645 sensor size...

Compare camera dimensions side by side

camerasize.com camerasize.com

Plus of course the big advantage of going CMOS with MF sensors is that it allows you to really maximise low light performance and turn a MF camera into something that can be used for events/sports/jurnolism/etc, you surely want that backed up by the best AF? then of course theres the viewfinder, the larger the format the better for an SLR.
 
MoreorLess said:
I feel that the size advantages of mirrorless MF are rather overstated as well. Part of the reason digital medium format bodies tend to be large its firstly because there modular systems produced by relatively small companies(less money for miniaturisation) and partly because there using legacy flange distances from full 645 film sizes.
Click to expand...
We do have some companies like Alpa producing bodies -- albeit modular bodies -- without regard to legacy flange focal distances. These bodies are attractively small, but they are sized for larger than 33x44 sensors (and so are the bulk of , if not all, the lenses), so they could be even smaller.

Jim
 
abortabort said:
abortabort said:
Hello folks,

I was playing around with my Mamiya 645 Pro TL and my A7s and I started wondering why there is no 'Sony' branded Medium Format camera. We know that Sony has been making medium format sensor for a long time now. Is the market segment too narrow for Sony to penetrate with its own camera? Maybe I'm just misinformed.

Have a splendid day,

Mike
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Technically, I'd say sort of: FF having come to mean 35mm format, anything over that could be said to be in the next category, which would be medium format---as long as one ignores the fact that medium format used to start at actual 6x4.5, except that it was really 56 x 44, or 42, or 55.1 x 42.5, or...oh nevermind! Thus, hobgoblins: http://www.bartleby.com/100/420.47.html Of all format classes, medium format is the least, uh, consistent. It's the format class of diversity! That makes it sound better, in 2015. Group hug. (BTW, OT, that joke you posted about the pastor, the doctor, and the engineer is my new fave).

Effectively, I'd say definitely. Let's just say I am having to adjust way more than I thought I would have to. Well, it's character building, unless it's this (second bold statement). The jump from FF to the Z is similar to the jump from apsc to FF. Don't I recall all the FF advocates a few years back, pre D or Z, declaiming the advantages of FF over apsc? Now, is it just me, or are some of those same people saying the difference between the Z sensor size and FF is no big deal?

But for me a big part is the potential size of the prints. I am looking for big, because what I'm wanting to do is similar to what Tillmans says in the beginning of this interview snippet (scroll down). I think you should understand from your experience with your a recent exhibition, I think a succulents image? The one I'm thinking about was in portrait orientation, and I imagine that at that size it started to have a 1:1 physical relationship with the viewer. So, for me the extra physical size of the sensor is a boost here that makes a difference for enlargement before I have to start uprezzing, if not actually a that big an aid in rez versus FF and Otis .
 
What do you all think the production costs are for medium format compared to full frame cameras? With the major price drops in recent years for full frame do you think we can expect the same for medium format? The Pentax seems to have already broken new ground at the sub $10,000 mark but I'm wondering if or when we will see some sub $5,000 medium format models. This would make them accessible to some semi pro photographers and would definitely make it more realistic for myself. I have been drooling over the 645Z since it's release but even with its "low" $8,500 it's currently too rich for my blood
 
A new medium format system is unlikely to emerge. A lot of investment in bodies and lenses is needed to compete in a small and shrinking market. The pro end of the market is dominated by Hasselblad and there are a few other systems at various price levels.
 
Volkovia said:
What do you all think the production costs are for medium format compared to full frame cameras? With the major price drops in recent years for full frame do you think we can expect the same for medium format? The Pentax seems to have already broken new ground at the sub $10,000 mark but I'm wondering if or when we will see some sub $5,000 medium format models. This would make them accessible to some semi pro photographers and would definitely make it more realistic for myself. I have been drooling over the 645Z since it's release but even with its "low" $8,500 it's currently too rich for my blood
Click to expand...
Let's skip the Pentax for a moment, since, pricewise, it's an MF outlier. I think the cost of Phase, Hassy, Leaf, etc is bound up in their business model, which, oversimplifying, can be described as deliberately low volume, heavy on working with a high-markup dealer network, heavy on customer support. With the exception of some of Hassy's pandering products, they are not looking to sell to amateurs. Studio pros are their main market. Those customers are less price-sensitive than consumers. If a camera can make them money, they want it. They can continue to be a market for those companies as long as Pentax and whoever else comes along don't present the pros -- who aren't stupid -- with a better price/value proposition. But I suspect that studio pros are under attack from all sides as the democratization of photography provides their customers with alternatives.

The Pentax is, the way I look at it, attractively priced compared to the pro level Nikons and Canons. It costs more, but not much more, and it does more, if you want what the bigger chip can deliver. Unless they can raise volume a whole bunch, I don't see the price coming down much. If Sony had a competitor for the 33x44 CMOS chip, that would be a different story. By the way, note that the Pentax body is cheap(ish), but some of the most desirable lenses aren't.

Jim

--
http://blog.kasson.com
 
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tex said:
Technically, I'd say sort of: FF having come to mean 35mm format, anything over that could be said to be in the next category, which would be medium format---as long as one ignores the fact that medium format used to start at actual 6x4.5, except that it was really 56 x 44, or 42, or 55.1 x 42.5, or...oh nevermind! Thus, hobgoblins: http://www.bartleby.com/100/420.47.html Of all format classes, medium format is the least, uh, consistent. It's the format class of diversity! That makes it sound better, in 2015. Group hug.
Click to expand...
Thanks, Tex. Coming from the film days, I consider 6x4.5 not really medium format, but, with FF 35mm digicams delivering better IQ than 6x7 film ones did, I'm goiing to have to recalibrate myself.
tex said:
Effectively, I'd say definitely. Let's just say I am having to adjust way more than I thought I would have to. Well, it's character building, unless it's this (second bold statement). The jump from FF to the Z is similar to the jump from apsc to FF. Don't I recall all the FF advocates a few years back, pre D or Z, declaiming the advantages of FF over apsc? Now, is it just me, or are some of those same people saying the difference between the Z sensor size and FF is no big deal?
Click to expand...
That's what counts, and I trust your judgement.
tex said:
But for me a big part is the potential size of the prints. I am looking for big, because what I'm wanting to do is similar to what Tillmans says in the beginning of this interview snippet (scroll down). I think you should understand from your experience with your a recent exhibition, I think a succulents image? The one I'm thinking about was in portrait orientation, and I imagine that at that size it started to have a 1:1 physical relationship with the viewer. So, for me the extra physical size of the sensor is a boost here that makes a difference for enlargement before I have to start uprezzing, if not actually a that big an aid in rez versus FF and Otis .
Click to expand...
The succulents pic was 60x60. It didn't sell, and is now in my dining room. And looking good, thank you very much. i love big pictures. I need bigger walls.

Jim
 
JimKasson said:
Thanks, Tex. Coming from the film days, I consider 6x4.5 not really medium format, but, with FF 35mm digicams delivering better IQ than 6x7 film ones did, I'm goiing to have to recalibrate myself.
Click to expand...
Yyyyyeeeaaahhh, during film days I thought 645 was sorta lame. I've changed my mind a bit. 35mm digicams delivering better IQ than 6x7? Musta missed that.
JimKasson said:
That's what counts, and I trust your judgement.
Click to expand...
Boy, I wouldn't do that! Let's just say I'm feeling a positive difference for what I'm about. Note the word "feeling".
JimKasson said:
The succulents pic was 60x60. It didn't sell, and is now in my dining room. And looking good, thank you very much. i love big pictures. I need bigger walls.
Click to expand...
You and me both, buddy. Even with a new 2001/2 addition on our house that more than doubled its size, and even with a bit of a reduction in the size of my paintings, there is still not near enough room. Gotta rotate. Or start selling, which I think might be preferable.

Still, my situation isn't as bad as that of an artist's estate I'm working on. He left behind about 3,000 finished works.
 
...I'd like to talk to you about them, re: usage on A7R
 
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