A6000 or wait for the M3?

Want IS for your 35mm Canon lens? Cough up $600 for their new EF 35mm f/2 IS! Want IS for your 28mm Canon lens? Cough up another $500 for their new EF 28mm f/2.8 IS! Want IS for your 16-35mm Canon lens? Cough up $1200 for their new EF 16-35mm f/4 IS! And on and on it goes. It's their business to milk as much money from you as possible. And putting IS into the body would really hurt that IS lens-upgrade business that they have going.
all of those lenses listed are better optically then the lenses they replaced. you'd have a case if the only thing they added / changed was IS.
But given the choice, I'd still rather just keep my existing non-IS Canon EF lenses, and simply add an IBIS body! That's because I've been perfectly happy with the optical performance of my current Canon EF glass. I just want stabilization for them! Besides, I think it's going to be a while before lenses like the 35/1.4L and 85/1.2L, or even the 50/1.4 or 85/1.8, get IS. And you're going to be paying a bit more than the current ones, that's for sure! No thanks, just give me IBIS.
of course you would.

however in all cases the IS USM primes perform at a level comparable to Zeiss ZE primes - the best if the business. I'd rather have excellent glass versus "make do" with cheaper but more affordable glass that simply is not as good. in the case of ones like the 35mm and 28mm - it's not even close between the old and the new variant.

Not to mention that lenscore who tests lenses on a test bench versus a camera body calls the 16-35mm the best UWA out there.

canon obviously isn't going to add in IBIS as a mainstream option - it doesn't work with OVF camera bodies, so it's truly a non starter in canon and Nikon land where the vast majority of the cameras are OVF.
Once you get away from the pixel peeping, you'll quickly realize that some of the world's best photos have been taken with these "make do" lenses over the years.
so then why are you complaining - if you can make do with shoddier resolution, then atypically you can make do with more camera shake - which at the apertures of 35mm and under a pretty limited to architectural and landscape.
So it's not as if they are optical slouches. My 35/1.4L is definitely no optical slouch.
the 35L is certainly showing it's age - the 35/2 IS USM outclasses it from 2.0 onwards.
But would it be even better if I could use it handheld with stabilization? Absolutely! Why? Because lab tests perform optical tests with the camera and lens mounted on rock-solid tripods, but out in the REAL WORLD we mainly shoot handheld.
depends, we also shoot objects in motion that exceed shutter speeds of 1/30th of as second too. such as humans. REAL WORLD shooting with humans that are not models I try to stay around 1/60th of a second or quicker.
That's why it's so valuable to have stabilization! But do I really want to upgrade every one of my non-stabilized lenses? No way!
then don't .. no one is forcing you. however when the lenses offer performance benefits AND IS, and the difference between used selling and new purchasing is only 100 bucks it seems moot to complain over it as well.
As for your claim that IBIS "doesn't work with OVF camera bodies", that's not true at all. Pentax has had IBIS in their OVF DSLR bodies for years. They've had it since 2006. And Pentax's upcoming Full Frame OVF DSLR is purported to have IBIS, too!
that's nice .. however I suspect canon users having "grown" up with mature OVF's that are stabilized would continue to want stabilized OVF's unlike pentax.

for canon DSLR's having in body would merely stabilize the image, it would not stabilize the viewfinder, metering nor AF.

it's simply another .. "make do" approach even more fraught with issues.

if canon was entirely MILC's this would certainly be a case though. but they are not.

even if the new primes (24/28/35) that you mention where even NON-IS .. they would still be worthy upgrades.

if canon was entirely MILC based with EVF's - I'd totally get your comments. but not when the vast majority of their cameras are OVF's.

Consider that canon sells more cameras than all EVF based cameras put together and you probably have a good indication that they aren't going that way.

Good news is that if you really bothers you there's a A7II out there.
LOL, you are the ultimate Canon fan. Canon must pay you well. Or at least the should be paying you! You're like the ultimate defender of Canon here, always ready to jump on anyone who doesn't toe the company line; thought-police extraordinaire, their truest and most ardent disciple.
 
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LOL, you are the ultimate Canon fan. Canon must pay you well. Or at least the should be paying you! You're like the ultimate defender of Canon here, always ready to jump on anyone who doesn't toe the company line; thought-police extraordinaire, their truest and most ardent disciple.
everything discussed with IBIS versus in lens applies to Nikon as much as canon. between the two of them they hold 70% of the entire ILC market.

when someone buys into Nikon or Canon they know they are buying into a system that is predominately in-lens stabilized. with optical viewfinders, and af and metering not on the sensor it makes sense.

it makes a little less sense on the EOS-M line or the Nikon 1 line - however, IBIS is certainly not Nikon's nor canon's area of expertise.

It certainly makes little sense in their existing ecosystem to use IBIS.

and like I said, if it really bothers you, there's an A7II out there that will use your canon glass.

funny even when someone ATTEMPTS to have a discussion with you, you turn in comments such as these.

it's as funny as nearly every single post of yours is critical.

which btw, is against the TOS of dpreview.
 
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Why, I must be a heretic or something to imply in-body image stabilization is not necessary for still image photography (it was developed for video, by the way). It increases complexity of the system, reduces reliability, adds cost and weight, reduces battery life and generally dumbs down the skill set of the average photographer, much like the fully auto mode on a point & shoot.
Yep, he's a luddite. People like him have been using this same argument against every technological development that has ever come to the world of photography: auto focus, auto exposure metering, TTL auto flash metering, image stabilization, digital photography, LCD live view, etc. If people like him had their way, we'd still be using all-manual film cameras. Thankfully for all of us, people like him don't run camera companies! Otherwise, there would be little or no development in camera technology, and we'd all still be using manual film cameras.
Pity. That would sort the men from the boys. Nothing too much wrong with a good manual film camera. Gets rid of most of the gearheads, & all the pixel peeping, test chart shooting, lab test specialist number crunchers, & puts the focus back on skills, & composition. You know, actual photography. As opposed to forum dwelling tech "experts" that can't shoot to save themselves.
Typical elitist non-sense. BTW, what kind of equipment are the best photojournalists, sports photographers, and documentarians of today using? They all take full advantage of what technology has to offer. Yep, not many of them are using all-manual film cameras. Yep, they must just all be "boys"; they certainly aren't "men" who are doing "actual photography". Great photographers like James Nachtwey, Tim Hetherington, Steve McCurry, David Alan Harvey, who are all using modern cameras to capture their amazing images all just a bunch of "boys".

James Nachtwey

James Nachtwey

Tim Hetherington

Tim Hetherington

Steve McCurry

Steve McCurry

David Alan Harvey

David Alan Harvey
Haven't you just argued against your point about in camera stabilization, these photog's use Canon and Nikon both of which do not offer in camera stabilization?
No, if their brands had it, you can bet they'd use it!
But they purposely and carefully chose their equipment and it does not include in-cameras stab.
Like I said, if Canon or Nikon came out with DSLR that had IBIS, you can bet these photographers would use it in a heartbeat. Canon and Nikon have a lot of glass that still isn't stabilized.
The point is that elitists seem to think that "real photographers" eschew technology, when in reality the real photographers out on the frontlines of the field will gladly use any technology that gives them even the slightest benefit or edge.
Exactly, and they decided that IBIS does not give them a benefit that they want.
Again, if Canon and Nikon came out with DSLRs that had IBIS, they'd be using it.
They use whatever works!
And what works is in lens stability.
Except for those lenses that don't have stabilization! Hahahahah!
They aren't afraid of technology, as long as it helps them get the images they are after. David Alan Harvey, for example, has even published photos he's taken with his iPhone! Just Google "David Alan Harvey iPhone" and you'll find various links and images.
Exactly, again what the tech they chose is in lens!
Sheesh, you don't get it, do you. Rather than being some tyro who sits around on the internet wringing his hands about what technology to turn your nose up at, most workaday photographers are far more practical and pragmatic. If you have in-lens stabilization, you use it. If you have in-body stabilization, you use it. And if you have a smartphone, you use it too!
I think it's really the armchair elitists who are the ones who like to be snobbish about technology, foolishly arguing that it's ruining photography. The workaday photographer is much more pragmatic. We'll use anything that helps us gets the image, whether it be in-camera stabilization, or remote live view triggering via wifi, or an iPhone's camera! For example, if I have a non-stabilized lens, and I can put it on a camera that has in-body stabilization that allows me to have a steadier shot with my non-stabilized lens, you can sure bet that I'll take advantage of in-body stabilization. (And I don't just say that hypothetically; I actually do use it!) This foolish internet hand-wringing about whether or not IBIS is a benefit, or whether a "real" photographer would such technology, is just childish internet armchair quarterbacking.
I always read posts about how great IBIS is because it lets the writer use their old non-IS lenses that are so great, so they are snobish about some old lenses and are eschewing new tech., ie. in lens IS to use their outdated lenses.
Nope, I use it for my non-stabilized Canon EF lenses! Like I said earlier, Canon still has a lot of non-stabilized lenses that many of us own, and the ability to mount them on IBIS bodies adds a very nice advantage to these lenses! It's not us being snobbish. It's you! And think of what you're being snobbish about! You're being snobbish about a capability that adds stabilization to non-stabilized lenses that allows you to handhold them more steadily! Geez, you're turning up your nose at that?!? How petty and pointless!

I think this is an example of "My Brand Doesn't Have That Feature, Therefore That Feature Must Suck" Syndrome. I remember when Canon was the only DSLR brand that had FF. Nikon users were constantly talking cr@p about FF, saying that it was a dead format, not needed, FF lenses vignetted terribly and had very soft corner, blah, blah, blah. In other words, they were suffering from "My Brand Doesn't Have That Feature, Therefore That Feature Must Suck" Syndrome. But then Nikon finally got FF, and suddenly all those naysayers just disappeared. It was clear that they were mainly just disparaging a particular feature or technology because their brand didn't have it. Likewise, it seems pretty clear that this is what you're doing here with IBIS. Just because another company has a particular feature that your company doesn't have doesn't mean that particular feature isn't any good. For example, I love the panorama sweep feature that other brands have. But Canon doesn't have that feature! I guess if I were a Canon fanboy, I'd be talking cr@p about panorama sweep, too, just like you're attempting to do with IBIS. Fortunately, I'm open-minded enough to understand that there are other brands out there that have some really nice features, and that I'm not monogamous to any one brand.
No you don't get it, they can choose any equipment they want, they could choose to shoot cameras with IBIS but they choose not to.

Maybe large corporations have more knowledge of what lens can really benefit from IS and which it is not worth it.
What makes you think that those lenses in the photo's above don't have VR?
Funny, IS is just being chosen to represent any in-lens stab. system.
As for in lens IS v. in body IS, those technological bets were made long ago: Canon/Nikon/Sony= in lens IS; Pentax/Olympus/Hasselblad=IBIS.

I'm not sure that you can draw any conclusions from that.

TEdolph
You can draw the conclusion that since a photographer can choose any make of equipment they want and they don't choose a equipment with in-body stab. system they must feel that the equipment with in-body does not meet their needs as well as the equipment without it.
 
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67gtonr wrote

No you don't get it, they can choose any equipment they want, they could choose to shoot cameras with IBIS but they choose not to.
It's not so simple, especially when you've been using a particular system all your life. And the alternative systems that currently offer IBIS have limitations. For example, the only FF camera that has IBIS is the Sony A77 II, which was only recently introduced. And before then, the only IBIS systems were m4/3. This isn't an issue with IBIS, it's merely an issue pertaining to the current systems in which IBIS is currently available. Now, if Canon and Nikon introduced IBIS to their existing DSLR systems, it would be a no-brainer for people like Natchwey and McCurry. It would merely be an issue of upgrading to the newer body that had IBIS in it!
How do you know that they would not instead switch to some other system that does not force them to use IBIS? You don't know, all you know is that they could choose a system with IBIS but have chosen not to.
Maybe large corporations have more knowledge of what lens can really benefit from IS and which it is not worth it.
That's not so simple either. Canon and Nikon decided on in-lens stabilization back in the film days, when there was no such thing as in-body sensor stabilization. They committed to in-lens stabilization a long time ago. They have a market incentive to stick to in-lens stabilization, because they have IS/VR lenses to sell.

Plus, don't just go by what the "large corporations" want you to do, because they have their own agenda! Don't be so naive and blind! Canon and Nikon want you to buy new IS/VR lenses! It's a good incentive to get people to upgrade their existing non-IS lenses! Want IS for your 35mm Canon lens? Cough up $600 for their new EF 35mm f/2 IS! Want IS for your 28mm Canon lens? Cough up another $500 for their new EF 28mm f/2.8 IS! Want IS for your 16-35mm Canon lens? Cough up $1200 for their new EF 16-35mm f/4 IS! And on and on it goes.
They also offer lenses without IS for less.
It's their business to milk as much money from you as possible. And putting IS into the body would really hurt that IS lens-upgrade business that they have going. So they aren't asking whether or not IBIS benefits the customer. They are asking whether IBIS benefits their bottom line business of selling their captive pool of users new lenses! In other words, it's not worth it to them to put IS into their bodies. They would rather you cough up more money to upgrade all your lenses to IS! If they put out a body that had IBIS, it would give every one of my existing non-IS Canon lenses image stabilization.
Oh, so it's different when a company offers you lenses without stability so you have to buy a camera with it?
 
No, if their brands had it, you can bet they'd use it! The point is that elitists seem to think that "real photographers" eschew technology, when in reality the real photographers out on the frontlines of the field will gladly use any technology that gives them even the slightest benefit or edge. They use whatever works!
right, and in lens IS works. and works with Optical viewfinders - In camera does not.
Exactly
 
Why, I must be a heretic or something to imply in-body image stabilization is not necessary for still image photography (it was developed for video, by the way). It increases complexity of the system, reduces reliability, adds cost and weight, reduces battery life and generally dumbs down the skill set of the average photographer, much like the fully auto mode on a point & shoot.
Yep, he's a luddite. People like him have been using this same argument against every technological development that has ever come to the world of photography: auto focus, auto exposure metering, TTL auto flash metering, image stabilization, digital photography, LCD live view, etc. If people like him had their way, we'd still be using all-manual film cameras. Thankfully for all of us, people like him don't run camera companies! Otherwise, there would be little or no development in camera technology, and we'd all still be using manual film cameras.
Pity. That would sort the men from the boys. Nothing too much wrong with a good manual film camera. Gets rid of most of the gearheads, & all the pixel peeping, test chart shooting, lab test specialist number crunchers, & puts the focus back on skills, & composition. You know, actual photography. As opposed to forum dwelling tech "experts" that can't shoot to save themselves.
Typical elitist non-sense. BTW, what kind of equipment are the best photojournalists, sports photographers, and documentarians of today using? They all take full advantage of what technology has to offer. Yep, not many of them are using all-manual film cameras. Yep, they must just all be "boys"; they certainly aren't "men" who are doing "actual photography". Great photographers like James Nachtwey, Tim Hetherington, Steve McCurry, David Alan Harvey, who are all using modern cameras to capture their amazing images all just a bunch of "boys".

James Nachtwey

James Nachtwey

Tim Hetherington

Tim Hetherington

Steve McCurry

Steve McCurry

David Alan Harvey

David Alan Harvey
Haven't you just argued against your point about in camera stabilization, these photog's use Canon and Nikon both of which do not offer in camera stabilization?
No, if their brands had it, you can bet they'd use it!
But they purposely and carefully chose their equipment and it does not include in-cameras stab.
The point is that elitists seem to think that "real photographers" eschew technology, when in reality the real photographers out on the frontlines of the field will gladly use any technology that gives them even the slightest benefit or edge.
Exactly, and they decided that IBIS does not give them a benefit that they want.
They use whatever works!
And what works is in lens stability.
They aren't afraid of technology, as long as it helps them get the images they are after. David Alan Harvey, for example, has even published photos he's taken with his iPhone! Just Google "David Alan Harvey iPhone" and you'll find various links and images.
Exactly, again what the tech they chose is in lens!
I think it's really the armchair elitists who are the ones who like to be snobbish about technology, foolishly arguing that it's ruining photography. The workaday photographer is much more pragmatic. We'll use anything that helps us gets the image, whether it be in-camera stabilization, or remote live view triggering via wifi, or an iPhone's camera! For example, if I have a non-stabilized lens, and I can put it on a camera that has in-body stabilization that allows me to have a steadier shot with my non-stabilized lens, you can sure bet that I'll take advantage of in-body stabilization. (And I don't just say that hypothetically; I actually do use it!) This foolish internet hand-wringing about whether or not IBIS is a benefit, or whether a "real" photographer would such technology, is just childish internet armchair quarterbacking.
I always read posts about how great IBIS is because it lets the writer use their old non-IS lenses that are so great, so they are snobish about some old lenses and are eschewing new tech., ie. in lens IS to use their outdated lenses.
Well stated, sir.

--
Skippy Belmont
 
Want IS for your 35mm Canon lens? Cough up $600 for their new EF 35mm f/2 IS! Want IS for your 28mm Canon lens? Cough up another $500 for their new EF 28mm f/2.8 IS! Want IS for your 16-35mm Canon lens? Cough up $1200 for their new EF 16-35mm f/4 IS! And on and on it goes. It's their business to milk as much money from you as possible. And putting IS into the body would really hurt that IS lens-upgrade business that they have going.
all of those lenses listed are better optically then the lenses they replaced. you'd have a case if the only thing they added / changed was IS.
In-body IS is a gimmick. Sensor shift technology rubbish. Ever see an image drift?
 
Why, I must be a heretic or something to imply in-body image stabilization is not necessary for still image photography (it was developed for video, by the way). It increases complexity of the system, reduces reliability, adds cost and weight, reduces battery life and generally dumbs down the skill set of the average photographer, much like the fully auto mode on a point & shoot.
Yep, he's a luddite. People like him have been using this same argument against every technological development that has ever come to the world of photography: auto focus, auto exposure metering, TTL auto flash metering, image stabilization, digital photography, LCD live view, etc. If people like him had their way, we'd still be using all-manual film cameras. Thankfully for all of us, people like him don't run camera companies! Otherwise, there would be little or no development in camera technology, and we'd all still be using manual film cameras.
Pity. That would sort the men from the boys. Nothing too much wrong with a good manual film camera. Gets rid of most of the gearheads, & all the pixel peeping, test chart shooting, lab test specialist number crunchers, & puts the focus back on skills, & composition. You know, actual photography. As opposed to forum dwelling tech "experts" that can't shoot to save themselves.
Typical elitist non-sense. BTW, what kind of equipment are the best photojournalists, sports photographers, and documentarians of today using? They all take full advantage of what technology has to offer. Yep, not many of them are using all-manual film cameras. Yep, they must just all be "boys"; they certainly aren't "men" who are doing "actual photography". Great photographers like James Nachtwey, Tim Hetherington, Steve McCurry, David Alan Harvey, who are all using modern cameras to capture their amazing images all just a bunch of "boys".

James Nachtwey

James Nachtwey

Tim Hetherington

Tim Hetherington

Steve McCurry

Steve McCurry

David Alan Harvey

David Alan Harvey
Haven't you just argued against your point about in camera stabilization, these photog's use Canon and Nikon both of which do not offer in camera stabilization?
No, if their brands had it, you can bet they'd use it!
But they purposely and carefully chose their equipment and it does not include in-cameras stab.
Like I said, if Canon or Nikon came out with DSLR that had IBIS, you can bet these photographers would use it in a heartbeat. Canon and Nikon have a lot of glass that still isn't stabilized.
The point is that elitists seem to think that "real photographers" eschew technology, when in reality the real photographers out on the frontlines of the field will gladly use any technology that gives them even the slightest benefit or edge.
Exactly, and they decided that IBIS does not give them a benefit that they want.
Again, if Canon and Nikon came out with DSLRs that had IBIS, they'd be using it.
They use whatever works!
And what works is in lens stability.
Except for those lenses that don't have stabilization! Hahahahah!
They aren't afraid of technology, as long as it helps them get the images they are after. David Alan Harvey, for example, has even published photos he's taken with his iPhone! Just Google "David Alan Harvey iPhone" and you'll find various links and images.
Exactly, again what the tech they chose is in lens!
Sheesh, you don't get it, do you. Rather than being some tyro who sits around on the internet wringing his hands about what technology to turn your nose up at, most workaday photographers are far more practical and pragmatic. If you have in-lens stabilization, you use it. If you have in-body stabilization, you use it. And if you have a smartphone, you use it too!
I think it's really the armchair elitists who are the ones who like to be snobbish about technology, foolishly arguing that it's ruining photography. The workaday photographer is much more pragmatic. We'll use anything that helps us gets the image, whether it be in-camera stabilization, or remote live view triggering via wifi, or an iPhone's camera! For example, if I have a non-stabilized lens, and I can put it on a camera that has in-body stabilization that allows me to have a steadier shot with my non-stabilized lens, you can sure bet that I'll take advantage of in-body stabilization. (And I don't just say that hypothetically; I actually do use it!) This foolish internet hand-wringing about whether or not IBIS is a benefit, or whether a "real" photographer would such technology, is just childish internet armchair quarterbacking.
I always read posts about how great IBIS is because it lets the writer use their old non-IS lenses that are so great, so they are snobish about some old lenses and are eschewing new tech., ie. in lens IS to use their outdated lenses.
Nope, I use it for my non-stabilized Canon EF lenses! Like I said earlier, Canon still has a lot of non-stabilized lenses that many of us own, and the ability to mount them on IBIS bodies adds a very nice advantage to these lenses! It's not us being snobbish. It's you! And think of what you're being snobbish about! You're being snobbish about a capability that adds stabilization to non-stabilized lenses that allows you to handhold them more steadily! Geez, you're turning up your nose at that?!? How petty and pointless!

I think this is an example of "My Brand Doesn't Have That Feature, Therefore That Feature Must Suck" Syndrome. I remember when Canon was the only DSLR brand that had FF. Nikon users were constantly talking cr@p about FF, saying that it was a dead format, not needed, FF lenses vignetted terribly and had very soft corner, blah, blah, blah. In other words, they were suffering from "My Brand Doesn't Have That Feature, Therefore That Feature Must Suck" Syndrome. But then Nikon finally got FF, and suddenly all those naysayers just disappeared. It was clear that they were mainly just disparaging a particular feature or technology because their brand didn't have it. Likewise, it seems pretty clear that this is what you're doing here with IBIS. Just because another company has a particular feature that your company doesn't have doesn't mean that particular feature isn't any good. For example, I love the panorama sweep feature that other brands have. But Canon doesn't have that feature! I guess if I were a Canon fanboy, I'd be talking cr@p about panorama sweep, too, just like you're attempting to do with IBIS. Fortunately, I'm open-minded enough to understand that there are other brands out there that have some really nice features, and that I'm not monogamous to any one brand.
It's my brand because IT DOESN'T have that feature. Crucial difference. That's not being snobbish.

--
Skippy Belmont
 

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