Backup alternative to CDR or DVD-R?

I love my DSLR but I worry about backing up the images I'm taking.

From what I've heard, CD-R and DVD-R media doesn't last long. A co-worker estimates average CD/DVD media is only good for a few years, the best media being good for a decade. (Sub-question here: is this guy full of it? What is the average lifespan for a CDR?)

The only alternative I can think of is a second hard disk. Is anybody out there using RAID (e.g., mirrored disks) to protect your data?

If not a second hard disk, what alternatives do I have to CD/DVD?

Thanks for your input!

DakDude said:

The only alternative I can think of is a second hard disk. Is
anybody out there using RAID (e.g., mirrored disks) to protect your
data?

Click to expand...

"RAID" is a pretty big word, and if you really and truly mean "RAID",
expensive. I think.

But I am most certainly using an external USB 2.0 disk to back-up
my images.

I have bought a $35 (or so) piece of software to make it even
easier. SyncroMagic, it's called.

I back up my "My Documents" folder from Windows XP, about once
a week. Well... honestly ... once every 2 or 3 weeks.

Here a link, if you are curious:

http://www.everythingusb.com/hardware/Storage/Hard_Drives.htm

Even the 120gig Maxtor 3000LE will go for less than $200, plus
$35 for SyncroMagic (or whatever you choose).

If you don't have USB 2.0, you can just use regular USB 1.1, and
the only problem will be that it takes a bit longer to do your backups.

The thing I like best is that I retain my existing directory structure.
Things don't get spread out all over the place, on different disks,
et cetera. I know where everything is, even in my backup data,
because it's all just my "My Documents" folder.

I've got no hard data on shelf life, but a recorded and properly taken care of CD should last a lot longer than "a few" years. (I'd think at least a hundred.)

Also, CD media is cheap. At 20 cents for 700MB, I can afford to make two copies every time I archive. One copy stays at home and the other comes into work with me. A poor man's off-site storage solution. You could even put a third copy in a safety deposit box if you are really worried.

An additional hard drive has it's own set of problems. For one, it will crash eventually. Not maybe, it will. There's a reason drives are rated on MTBF.

Also, when you fill that up (shooting with a DSLR it will happen fast) what are you going to do, add another drive? To me, a HD is not an acceptable archival storage medium.

The argument Tim made about having everything in one place is a valid one though. Finding a prticular image can get hard after a while. Right now I'm researching catalogging programs. I've got over a dozen archive CD's already...

Hope this helps!

DakDude said:

I love my DSLR but I worry about backing up the images I'm taking.

From what I've heard, CD-R and DVD-R media doesn't last long. A
co-worker estimates average CD/DVD media is only good for a few
years, the best media being good for a decade. (Sub-question here:
is this guy full of it? What is the average lifespan for a CDR?)

The only alternative I can think of is a second hard disk. Is
anybody out there using RAID (e.g., mirrored disks) to protect your
data?

If not a second hard disk, what alternatives do I have to CD/DVD?

Thanks for your input!

Click to expand...

--
Chefziggy
http://www.pbase.com/chefziggy

Chefziggy said:

An additional hard drive has it's own set of problems. For one, it
will crash eventually. Not maybe, it will. There's a reason
drives are rated on MTBF.

Click to expand...

Well, my back-up drive isn't even running most of the time.

Actually, I even have a slightly older 40gig drive that I will be
leaving at my parents' house, as off site backup. So that makes
3 copies of everything, up to fairly recently.

ChefZiggy said:

Also, when you fill that up (shooting with a DSLR it will happen
fast) what are you going to do, add another drive? To me, a HD is
not an acceptable archival storage medium.

Click to expand...

Well, it is expensive. Certainly more than the 20 cents for 700MB
price you cite for CD-R.

But if it isn't at 1 dollar per gig already, it soon will be. I really think
2 years from now I will be able to get a 350gig drive for $175, so
I am paying more now, but things just keep getting better.

I am hopeful too that I will just stick with my Canon 10D for the
next two years, so hopefully my "needs" won't increase as well.

DakDude said:

I love my DSLR but I worry about backing up the images I'm taking.

From what I've heard, CD-R and DVD-R media doesn't last long. A

Click to expand...

Depends on how you define "long".

DakDude said:

co-worker estimates average CD/DVD media is only good for a few
years, the best media being good for a decade. (Sub-question here:
is this guy full of it? What is the average lifespan for a CDR?)

Click to expand...

Yes, this guy is not giving you correct information. The best media that I've come across is Mutui Gold. See my recent post http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1023&message=5495372 where you'll find a link to them. Based on accelerated aging tests they claim 300+ (!) years as shown here http://www.mam-a.com/products/gold/index.html . I guess the question is how valid is the aging test? How many CD-R manufacturers give longevity information?

Average lifespan? I believe that's unknown at this time. 10 years? 40 years? Probably longer than this media will be in widespread use. Aside from the pen and paper, what media are we still using from last 30 years?

Sub-answer: Be very wary of any information you get from this co-worker.

DakDude said:

The only alternative I can think of is a second hard disk. Is
anybody out there using RAID (e.g., mirrored disks) to protect your
data?

If not a second hard disk, what alternatives do I have to CD/DVD?

Thanks for your input!

Click to expand...

IMO, your best assurance for archiving is to back up to CD-R or DVD at least twice. Then store them at two different places. This will increase the changes of not losing data to fire, theft, data corruption, etc.).

The Mitsui CD-R's are about a dollar each (in quantity). Only you can answer if that expense is worth the value of the information you're archiving. (How much did your camera/lenses cost?)

a harddisk isnt your best long term storage solution! Go with CD or DVD .. make 2 copies of each CD. 3 if you have really important photos....

store the CDs as recommended.

If you want more security then use MO disks they are tougher than Cd's

DakDude said:

I love my DSLR but I worry about backing up the images I'm taking.

From what I've heard, CD-R and DVD-R media doesn't last long. A
co-worker estimates average CD/DVD media is only good for a few
years, the best media being good for a decade. (Sub-question here:
is this guy full of it? What is the average lifespan for a CDR?)

The only alternative I can think of is a second hard disk. Is
anybody out there using RAID (e.g., mirrored disks) to protect your
data?

If not a second hard disk, what alternatives do I have to CD/DVD?

Thanks for your input!

Click to expand...

matt said:

a harddisk isnt your best long term storage solution!

Click to expand...

But I certainly wonder why you say this. As it is, your statement
is just a general comment without even the slightest hint as
to why you feel this way.

In the past this was true, but as hard disk storage is getting
cheaper and cheaper, I think it is starting to become time to
at least think twice about this conventional thinking.

There is the danger of hard disk failure, but the chances that
both disks (the primary and the backup) would go bad at
the same time, seems very, very slim.

In fact, I bought my first PC in 1992, and I have never had a
hard disk go bad on me, nor have I ever seen a hard disk go
bad in any office I have worked in. Maybe heard stories about
servers going bad, but never my office PC, nor the disk of any
co-worker's PC.

Sure ... I am sure it happens, but it really is much more rare than
others would suggest. How many PCs never have any hard disk
problems ? Really quite a real, real lot, I'd guess.

And the convience hard disk backup provides for is great. Backing-up
isn't a half-hour project of feeding blank CDs into the CD-writer,
it is much much easier with a USB 2 external disk ... and hence
it gets done more often.

Off site storage is also possible with USB 2 external storage.

I agree the subject is debatable... but I cannot understand why
you make this blanket statement that it is bad, without even the
slightest hint as to why you feel this way.

DakDude said:

I love my DSLR but I worry about backing up the images I'm taking.

From what I've heard, CD-R and DVD-R media doesn't last long. A
co-worker estimates average CD/DVD media is only good for a few
years, the best media being good for a decade. (Sub-question here:
is this guy full of it? What is the average lifespan for a CDR?)

Click to expand...

If it makes you feel better..... I've got some music and data cdrs that i recorded in 1994 that are still perfectly fine and work like new.

tim martin said:

But I certainly wonder why you say this. As it is, your statement
is just a general comment without even the slightest hint as
to why you feel this way.

In the past this was true, but as hard disk storage is getting
cheaper and cheaper, I think it is starting to become time to
at least think twice about this conventional thinking.

Click to expand...

yes it is becoming cheper, that doesnt mean its suitable

tim martin said:

There is the danger of hard disk failure, but the chances that
both disks (the primary and the backup) would go bad at
the same time, seems very, very slim.

Click to expand...

for example... and the chance is not so slim. there is also the chance of a virus or a hacker damaging your data. Also the harddisk may be obsoloete technology before the CD is. If you cant get a controller for your harddisk then you wont get your photos back.

lastly it is a little cumbersome to store. I put my important data on double CDs in a bank safty box... I like to see you storing 10 harddisks. the more you handle a harddisk the higher the chance of damage

tim martin said:

In fact, I bought my first PC in 1992, and I have never had a
hard disk go bad on me, nor have I ever seen a hard disk go
bad in any office I have worked in. Maybe heard stories about
servers going bad, but never my office PC, nor the disk of any
co-worker's PC.

Click to expand...

I never had one go bad either, but I have seen it and there is the additional human error or virus attack.

Do you really want to take the risk and lose 160GB or what at once?

tim martin said:

Sure ... I am sure it happens, but it really is much more rare than
others would suggest. How many PCs never have any hard disk
problems ? Really quite a real, real lot, I'd guess.

Click to expand...

Nobody is forcing you ... keep on storing your data on harddisks if ou find the risk acceptable then go for it.

tim martin said:

And the convience hard disk backup provides for is great. Backing-up
isn't a half-hour project of feeding blank CDs into the CD-writer,
it is much much easier with a USB 2 external disk ... and hence
it gets done more often.

Click to expand...

yes its convinient (and risky)

tim martin said:

Off site storage is also possible with USB 2 external storage.

I agree the subject is debatable... but I cannot understand why
you make this blanket statement that it is bad, without even the
slightest hint as to why you feel this way.

Click to expand...

as above ... I felt this knowledge is common sense

Make those two or three copies onto different brands of media. I make a total of 4 - two on Kodak gold media (similar to the Mitsui) and two on Imation CD-Rs, and store one of each brand of CD-R at home and one at work.

matt said:

a harddisk isnt your best long term storage solution! Go with CD or
DVD .. make 2 copies of each CD. 3 if you have really important
photos....

Click to expand...

you should make the number of copies proportional to the importance of the pictures .... If you have your best selling shots on a CD you may want to consider more backups than for the naps of your cat sleeping

Interesting fact for CD's:

If you scratch the underside the Cd can be repaired. If you scratch the top side (with label) it will damage the pits and it cant be repaired.

I am not exactly sure where the data layer is in the CDR's but it should be similar.

Gary Berg said:

matt said:

a harddisk isnt your best long term storage solution! Go with CD or
DVD .. make 2 copies of each CD. 3 if you have really important
photos....

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

The data layer is right underneath the label; the underside is all clear plastic that the laser lens passes through. I don't know why the top side is designed in such a vulnerable way...

matt said:

Interesting fact for CD's:
If you scratch the underside the Cd can be repaired. If you scratch
the top side (with label) it will damage the pits and it cant be
repaired.

I am not exactly sure where the data layer is in the CDR's but it
should be similar.

Click to expand...

Just kiddin.

I think NEW CD-R disks are good. I also think that it's better to store them in cold place, frozen, but i'm not sure - i just heard this idea before.

DON'T USE HIGH BURNING SPEEDS! The slower you burn, the better CD you get. I think you can burn at 4x and it will be fine, although it takes about 20 minutes to burn.

DVD can be good too, but i don't know much about that - there's not much statistical information so far.

What other options do you have?

HDDs are no-good they break and magnetic fields slowly destroy them.

Flash memory would be good, if it wasn't so expensive.

You can puth your files on tape, but that's such a pain, although it wil guarantee you 100 years or so.

That's all we have.

The best thing would be make 5-6 copies on different CDRs with a very low (4x) burning speed. Ant store all of them separately. But that's only your information is very valuable.

Gary Berg said:

The data layer is right underneath the label; the underside is all
clear plastic that the laser lens passes through. I don't know why
the top side is designed in such a vulnerable way...

Click to expand...

I think they sell CD's rather twice ...

Gary Berg said:

matt said:

Interesting fact for CD's:
If you scratch the underside the Cd can be repaired. If you scratch
the top side (with label) it will damage the pits and it cant be
repaired.

I am not exactly sure where the data layer is in the CDR's but it
should be similar.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Oleg K wrote:
snip

Oleg K said:

HDDs are no-good they break and magnetic fields slowly destroy them.

Click to expand...

I think you meant to say "...the magnetic DECAY will slowly make them unreadable...".
snip

Backups should be done on optical media (CD-R/DVD's).

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Mutsui, while more expensive than the rest, advertises its CD-R (Gold) and DVD's as ARCHIVE QUALITY http://www.mam-a.com/products/Gold/archive.html

See http://www.mam-a.com/technology/technical_papers/documents/why_mit_cdr.html why they claim their disks are written to better (because of burst mode).

See http://www.mam-a.com/technology/quality/index.html about what they say about high speed compatibility. I have only heard about reducing the writing speed in the digital audio forums to achieve better recordings. It makes sense, but question the need if using high quality media and in this application (and not making masters for the production of CD's). I wonder if anyone has examples of corrupt data being written because it was written too fast (presuming quality media was used and not exceeding its rating). Just curious to see the evidence for recording at lower speeds for data (not audio).

My laptop CD-ROM doesnt always read CD-Rs burned at 16x, but ALWAYS reads them burned at 4x. So, there must be a difference.

Estuardo said:

See http://www.mam-a.com/technology/quality/index.html about what
they say about high speed compatibility. I have only heard about
reducing the writing speed in the digital audio forums to achieve
better recordings. It makes sense, but question the need if using
high quality media and in this application (and not making masters
for the production of CD's). I wonder if anyone has examples of
corrupt data being written because it was written too fast
(presuming quality media was used and not exceeding its rating).
Just curious to see the evidence for recording at lower speeds for
data (not audio).

Click to expand...

Estuardo said:

DakDude said:

I love my DSLR but I worry about backing up the images I'm taking.

From what I've heard, CD-R and DVD-R media doesn't last long. A

Click to expand...

Depends on how you define "long".

Click to expand...

I've read reports that say 70 or so years is not unreasonable. I've got some CD-r I burned close to 10yrs ago, I can still read them. To be honest the shelf life of the media isn't as much of a concern to me as the fact that it may not be a popular medium 10yrs from now... will they still have DVD Drives in 10years, probably. How about 50-70yrs from now--I doubt it. Won't do you much good to have a DVD-R disc that is fine but can't be read on any consumer grade equipment in 2053. Probably will be able to find specialty equipment like you can for old super8 movies, etc, but is that really the goal?

You have to plan on converting down the road. The new technology coming to us will allow more storage in smaller amounts of space and we'll be able to convert from CD-R and DVD-R in that time frame. Not every year, but, probably every 5-10years, as the new stuff comes out and reaches the defacto-standard phase.

Just my opinion.

So, My current philosophy for my digital backups, uses most of the suggestions here...

I immediately make a backup from my local drive to a share on my wife's pc. (Basically the same as an external backup using a USB drive). That will cover me if any corruption problems occur on my drive or her drive and I Can still access the files immediately and don't need to go into the archive. A virus might be able to wipe us out, but, I'm cautious about that and protected. A well positioned lightning strike could get us too...So

Every once in a while I backup the files to a CDR (Basically when I Get 6-700MB of files. So now I have a primary and backup harddrive solution AND an external archive solution.

I just got a cheap DVD+R/RW drive and I will now make a backup of 4.7GB of photo's to that media as well.

tim martin said:

In fact, I bought my first PC in 1992, and I have never had a
hard disk go bad on me, nor have I ever seen a hard disk go
bad in any office I have worked in. Maybe heard stories about
servers going bad, but never my office PC, nor the disk of any
co-worker's PC.

Click to expand...

You must lead a charmed life. I've had at least 5 drives fail in the last few years of PCs I have been working on directory, and a few on related systems. I also have had 2 memory sticks, 4 tape drives, 2 floppy drives, and probably a CD-ROM and network card or two die while we are at it. Some times they are under warranty, some times not.

I've never questioned that there may be a difference in writing speed, but did question whether there'd be a difference when using QUALITY media.

I'd be curious to know if your laptop would read MITSUI CD-R's consistently when burned at 16x. I believe they have the highest reflectivity of any CD-R's produced.

Using cheap media/burners will often give you poor quality out. If you're using 10¢ or free CD-R's, would you realistically expect quality?

Oleg K said:

Oleg K said:

See http://www.mam-a.com/technology/quality/index.html about what
they say about high speed compatibility. I have only heard about
reducing the writing speed in the digital audio forums to achieve
better recordings. It makes sense, but question the need if using
high quality media and in this application (and not making masters
for the production of CD's). I wonder if anyone has examples of
corrupt data being written because it was written too fast
(presuming quality media was used and not exceeding its rating).
Just curious to see the evidence for recording at lower speeds for
data (not audio).

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Right now I use CD as both. I use extra HD sapce on a different machine as backup more to protect me from overwiting the original picture than a machine failure. I would not go with HD for archiving for the reasons already mentioned above.