Image stacking with long focal lengths?

ByteTheBullet

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I don't want (or have the money) to dish out money for a tracker. Would it be possible to capture deep space objects such as M31 by using a very long focal length such as 700mm and taking hundreds of very short exposures (1-3 seconds) and stacking them?
 
I don't want (or have the money) to dish out money for a tracker. Would it be possible to capture deep space objects such as M31 by using a very long focal length such as 700mm and taking hundreds of very short exposures (1-3 seconds) and stacking them?
Not at 700mm. At 700mm you'll have to be shooting at ~1/10-1/20 sec to avoid trailing. Maybe 1-3 sec at 100mm, but not 700mm.
 
I don't want (or have the money) to dish out money for a tracker. Would it be possible to capture deep space objects such as M31 by using a very long focal length such as 700mm and taking hundreds of very short exposures (1-3 seconds) and stacking them?
Not at 700mm. At 700mm you'll have to be shooting at ~1/10-1/20 sec to avoid trailing. Maybe 1-3 sec at 100mm, but not 700mm.
If I took hundreds of shots at 1/10-1/20 sec and stacked them would that work too?
 
I don't want (or have the money) to dish out money for a tracker. Would it be possible to capture deep space objects such as M31 by using a very long focal length such as 700mm and taking hundreds of very short exposures (1-3 seconds) and stacking them?
Not at 700mm. At 700mm you'll have to be shooting at ~1/10-1/20 sec to avoid trailing. Maybe 1-3 sec at 100mm, but not 700mm.
If I took hundreds of shots at 1/10-1/20 sec and stacked them would that work too?
Maybe with a CCD cam mounted to a 100" telescope. Also, 700mm is not a "very long" focal length.

When it comes to AP; 700mm is considered "wide angle". "Long" fl starts ~ 1500-2000mm and goes up from there.


Besides,700m is WAY too long for M31 ! The sweet spot is between 300 -600 mm.
 
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I've seen some respectable images taken at very short exposures without a mount, so it is possible. If I was trying it though, I'd use a focal length of no more than 300mm.
 
Would it be possible to capture deep space objects such as M31 by using a very long focal length such as 700mm and taking hundreds of very short exposures (1-3 seconds) and stacking them?
That makes no sense, because there is to less Light coming from M31 there would gathering Your Sensor in 3 Seconds.

12x 30 Seconds.

12x 30 Seconds.

Save Your Money for a cheap iOptron SkyTracker or equal Tracker and You can enjoy some nice Photos instead to waste a lot of Time. ;-)
 
I don't want (or have the money) to dish out money for a tracker. Would it be possible to capture deep space objects such as M31 by using a very long focal length such as 700mm and taking hundreds of very short exposures (1-3 seconds) and stacking them?
You could take a series of a few hundred images at 300mm using less than one second shutter each, then spend hours letting your computer stack and align them, then spend a lot more time post processing the resulting image. But it will never look as good as a well tracked image. You simply cannot get enough light captured in less than one second of time using an f/4 or greater lens. I used f/4 as an example because most 300mm lenses will be f/4 or greater, and probably greater. There are a lot of cool things you can photograph in the night sky with a tripod and camera on a stationary mount, but very dim objects like galaxies will be very tough to capture. I use a stationary mount, but I limit my AP to mostly wide angle and ultra wide angle shots where I can use very fast lenses and keep the shutter open for 15 seconds or more. The longer the FL the shorter the shutter speed before trailing occurs, and the longer the FL the darker the lens (generally speaking).

--
An astrophotography hobbyist and amateur radio instructor and examiner. Sony a7 and Sony a6000. https://www.flickr.com/photos/jackswinden/
 
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I don't want (or have the money) to dish out money for a tracker. Would it be possible to capture deep space objects such as M31 by using a very long focal length such as 700mm and taking hundreds of very short exposures (1-3 seconds) and stacking them?
See this video:

 
I don't want (or have the money) to dish out money for a tracker. Would it be possible to capture deep space objects such as M31 by using a very long focal length such as 700mm and taking hundreds of very short exposures (1-3 seconds) and stacking them?
You could take a series of a few hundred images at 300mm using less than one second shutter each, then spend hours letting your computer stack and align them, then spend a lot more time post processing the resulting image. But it will never look as good as a well tracked image. You simply cannot get enough light captured in less than one second of time using an f/4 or greater lens. I used f/4 as an example because most 300mm lenses will be f/4 or greater, and probably greater. There are a lot of cool things you can photograph in the night sky with a tripod and camera on a stationary mount, but very dim objects like galaxies will be very tough to capture. I use a stationary mount, but I limit my AP to mostly wide angle and ultra wide angle shots where I can use very fast lenses and keep the shutter open for 15 seconds or more. The longer the FL the shorter the shutter speed before trailing occurs, and the longer the FL the darker the lens (generally speaking).
 
If I used a tracker such as the iOptron Skytracker with long focal lengths such as 300-500mm would that work much better?
300mm is the very max I'd use on the SkyTracker. I have one and 30-45 sec is about the max you expect at 300mm.


Drop down to 200mm and you can image up to 120 sec with about 60-70% acceptable subs.


These were all taken using the SkyTracker and a 70-30mm zoom @ 200 -300mm.

14703316086_41373ec782_b.jpg


14110267770_7583dc49f4_b.jpg


14094812647_b93120cfdc_b.jpg


13500174843_8dbce5b961_b.jpg


13439145534_f1d5ea1473_b.jpg
 
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I don't want (or have the money) to dish out money for a tracker. Would it be possible to capture deep space objects such as M31 by using a very long focal length such as 700mm and taking hundreds of very short exposures (1-3 seconds) and stacking them?
Like others said, a tracker is always going to be better than stacking short ones, both in terms of results and the amount of work it takes.

If you want to go for the diy shoe-string budget, build a barn door tracker; all you need is a couple hardware store items like a hinge and some screws, and you can expose for much longer than on a normal tripod.
 
If I used a tracker such as the iOptron Skytracker with long focal lengths such as 300-500mm would that work much better?
The reported PE "Periodic Error" of the gear train of the Skytracker varies between samples, with an average of 80-120" per 10 minute cycle. An acute human eye can easily see 120". Magnify that by your 300 - 500mm lens and there's your problem.

Right now, as I type, my $350 telescope, on my Craig's list telescope mount, has been pointing with an accuracy of 0.5" for the past 2 1/2 hrs . That's just 5 times the diameter of Pluto as seen by the naked eye.
 
Just to answer the initial question.

No - several short exposures does NOT add up to one single longer exposure.

Reason - longer exposures record fainter stars!

By stacking several images noise is reduced - the sky background becomes less noisy - and slightly fainter stars become visible as the noise floor is reduced. But the stack will still ONLY show the stars recorded by the shorter exposure. So not even thousands of very short exposures add up to one single long exposure.

Simply take images with the same setup and stack 30 one second exposures and compare that to 1 single 30 second exposure - the longer exposure will show fainter star regardless of the amount of short exposures stacked - just try and see...

And even 300 or 3000 one second exposures will be inferior to one single 30 second exposure - just try and see...
 
Just to answer the initial question.

No - several short exposures does NOT add up to one single longer exposure.

Reason - longer exposures record fainter stars!

By stacking several images noise is reduced - the sky background becomes less noisy - and slightly fainter stars become visible as the noise floor is reduced. But the stack will still ONLY show the stars recorded by the shorter exposure. So not even thousands of very short exposures add up to one single long exposure.

Simply take images with the same setup and stack 30 one second exposures and compare that to 1 single 30 second exposure - the longer exposure will show fainter star regardless of the amount of short exposures stacked - just try and see...

And even 300 or 3000 one second exposures will be inferior to one single 30 second exposure - just try and see...
I wholeheartedly agree with this. It's a sad fact that long exposure astrophotography is complex and often very expensive. Without some sort of tracker, your results will be limited by the fact we are sitting on a moving platform (the Earth). You deal with that movement by:
  • Limiting the effects of movement by short exposures, high ISO or short focal lengths
  • Counteracting the movement with a tracker
It is interesting to consider the viewpoint of an observer stationary in space looking at an Earth-bound telescope or camera. If the imaging setup is not on a tracker, the pointing direction is constantly changing. On a tracker the telescope or camera is stationary in space while the Earth turns underneath it.

While some may point to results coming from heroic efforts without tracking, it's a losing endeavor due to the reasons stated above by Trollman. It's best to recognize the limits imposed by the lack of a tracker and do what you can within those limits. As your subject gets smaller and fainter, increased focal length (image scale) and exposure (i.e. tracking, high ISO) becomes more necessary.

With short focal lengths, the jump to tracking is less expensive. For wide field tracked images (i.e. Milky Way) a home-made barn-door tracker or relatively inexpensive commercial tracker can get you well equipped without tremendous expense. For zoomed in shots of a bright object (i.e. Sun or Moon), medium focal lengths with fast optics can have success without tracking, as some of Jack's recent images have shown. But for most galaxies (other than the Andromeda Galaxy) and nebulae some sort of tracker will be required.

As your subject gets faint and small (the vast majority of deep-sky objects), a telescope on an equatorial mount involves a big jump in expense and complexity. Even with expensive equatorial mounts, some sort of guiding (manual or auto-guiding) will be required for long exposures.

These are just the facts faced by all beginning astrophotographers. There's no free ride. Yet even getting a camera well-suited for wide field astrophotography is not inexpensive.
 

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