Reading mode: Light Dark

Is camera shake a bigger issue on Full Frame cameras?

Go to last post
RoyAmatore said:
Andrew 3 said:
RoyAmatore said:
View the D750 image at 100% and you'll see the bigger pixels of the D700 were masking your sloppiness.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
I understand you to say that the answer is "Yes," camera shake is a bigger issue on a higher (=smaller pixels) megapixel camera because sloppiness (i.e. camera shake) will be more pronounced on a higher density sensor.
Click to expand...
Sticking within the accepted laws of physics, can you please explain exactly *why* you believe this.

When doing so please bear in mind that the individual pixels on both a "low" megapixel camera (12mp?) and a "high" megapixel camera are so small they are invisible to the human eye (on the sensor)

Also bear in mind that the cameras with the highest pixel densities are NOT full-frame cameras. 24mp APS-C models, M43 and 1" sensors and smaller, all have much smaller pixels and therefore much higher pixel densities.
 
Bing Chow said:
RoyAmatore said:
soloryb said:
RoyAmatore said:
I bought the D750 and have been taking some shots around the neighborhood and at home. I am finding that, on close inspection, following the shutter speed = focal length rule is not sufficient for truly sharp images. Indeed, even doubling the shutter speed does not seem to do the trick. I also notice that of all the sample pics I've seen, its very hard to find one that demonstrates the camera's sharpness. I realize that there are many factors that contribute to sharpness, but when I stand 8 feet away from a small object with a 50mm lens set at f.28 at low ISO and 1/50th of a second, and then zoom in to the LCD at 100%, the small object is not tack sharp. I would like to see a sample pic that shows incredibly sharp detail at 100%. That's what I expect from this camera. Is the full frame format the culprit here? Is VR a must? Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
Before blaming your technique or your camera, you need to check your lens alignment. The AF on your D750 may be either back focusing or front focusing with your 50mm - something you can adjust in the camera itself via fine tuning. This is very common and is often the cause of those blurry shots that you could swear that you had nailed the focus on.

soloryb
Click to expand...
I will check that for sure. Nice to know that it is correctible.
Click to expand...
Correctible to an extent......on a prime, the AF can behave differently depending on distance. For e.g., at close distances (say 4ft) it needs no correction. But at far distances, it might look soft. Ideally, it shouldn't though. In body AF-fine tuning applies one setting only to all distances. For zooms, the potential for error rises: numerous focal lengths and different distances for each!!

Which is why I'm a big fan of Sigma's USB Dock that allow AF correction to 4 distances.
Click to expand...
You are correct in that the fine tuning values for zooms will vary according to the FL at which it is done. The other variable that can influence the fine tuning value - for both zooms and primes - is the target (object plane) distance at which you are testing. To mitigate this fuzziness in fine tune values for zooms, you can either test at a variety of focal lengths and choose an average value or choose a value that corresponds to the most frequently used FL. For example, on my 70-200 VII, I measured -5 at 70mm and -9 at 200mm. Since I use this lens most often at 200mm, I set the camera at a fine tune value of -9 for that lens. I could also have chosen -7, which would be a small compromise but close enough to give sharp results for most shots.

Back or front focusing issues are often masked by the DOF, unless of course the lens alignment is extremely off. Of course the issue does become more significant the longer the lens and the closer the subject due to reduced DOF. Also, stopping down the aperture and increasing the DOF will reduce the possibility of an alignment problem softening up the focus too much.

Fine tuning a lens/camera may not be a panacea for absolutely correcting all lens alignment issues (especially zooms) but it does help, and at least provides you with an awareness of how the AF for a particular lens is behaving.
 
RoyAmatore said:
soloryb said:
RoyAmatore said:
I bought the D750 and have been taking some shots around the neighborhood and at home. I am finding that, on close inspection, following the shutter speed = focal length rule is not sufficient for truly sharp images. Indeed, even doubling the shutter speed does not seem to do the trick. I also notice that of all the sample pics I've seen, its very hard to find one that demonstrates the camera's sharpness. I realize that there are many factors that contribute to sharpness, but when I stand 8 feet away from a small object with a 50mm lens set at f.28 at low ISO and 1/50th of a second, and then zoom in to the LCD at 100%, the small object is not tack sharp. I would like to see a sample pic that shows incredibly sharp detail at 100%. That's what I expect from this camera. Is the full frame format the culprit here? Is VR a must? Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
Before blaming your technique or your camera, you need to check your lens alignment. The AF on your D750 may be either back focusing or front focusing with your 50mm - something you can adjust in the camera itself via fine tuning. This is very common and is often the cause of those blurry shots that you could swear that you had nailed the focus on.

soloryb
Click to expand...
I will check that for sure. Nice to know that it is correctible.
Click to expand...
If you do perform lens alignment corrections - and you absolutely should IMO - then I would recommend purchasing and using LensAlign along with its associated software package - FocusTune. I've tried a variety of devices and methods and this is the only one I've found to be relatively precise and accurate. There are several DPR threads on this subject that you can read for yourself.

soloryb
 
RoyAmatore said:
I bought the D750 and have been taking some shots around the neighborhood and at home. I am finding that, on close inspection, following the shutter speed = focal length rule is not sufficient for truly sharp images. Indeed, even doubling the shutter speed does not seem to do the trick. I also notice that of all the sample pics I've seen, its very hard to find one that demonstrates the camera's sharpness. I realize that there are many factors that contribute to sharpness, but when I stand 8 feet away from a small object with a 50mm lens set at f.28 at low ISO and 1/50th of a second, and then zoom in to the LCD at 100%, the small object is not tack sharp. I would like to see a sample pic that shows incredibly sharp detail at 100%. That's what I expect from this camera. Is the full frame format the culprit here? Is VR a must? Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
Camera shake has a distinctive signature - check fine highlights - if they are streaked in only one direction it is camera shake. If the are just soft, something else is wrong. The usual suspects are:

1. Missed focus - especially using fast lenses wide open

2. High ISO. These cameras can be great at high ISO, but there is a penalty. Denoising systems do damage pixel level detail - but you can still get very usable images at 50% resolution at higher ISOs.

3. Poor lens quality - honestly this is less likely to be a problem with modern optics. Ignoring corner sharpness, modern lenses should be able to get you a pixel sharp image in the centre of the frame when used correctly.

Just try shooting brick walls in good light hand-held to see if you can work out where the problem is. I can hand hold my D600 at 1/focal length and get sharp photos, when I am fresh and standing properly. If my arms are tired or shaky, blur kicks in, it is a very personal equation and practice and testing should give you a good feel for what you can get away with.
 
BasiliskPhoto said:
Just try shooting brick walls in good light hand-held to see if you can work out where the problem is. I can hand hold my D600 at 1/focal length and get sharp photos, when I am fresh and standing properly. If my arms are tired or shaky, blur kicks in, it is a very personal equation and practice and testing should give you a good feel for what you can get away with.
Click to expand...
I think you're imagining this. You see it because you want to believe it (for whatever reasons).
 
RoyAmatore said:
Truman Prevatt said:
RoyAmatore said:
I bought the D750 and have been taking some shots around the neighborhood and at home. I am finding that, on close inspection, following the shutter speed = focal length rule is not sufficient for truly sharp images.
Click to expand...
In reality - that rule of thumb was probably never adequate. Why, we didn't have high resolution scanners when that rule of thumb was proposed to check it. In reality it gets down to what is sharp enough. What is sharp n a 16x20 print - may not be sharp enough at a 200% zoom when you are looking for every small imperfection that might or might not show up in a print.

I am sure the D750 is a fine camera. However, what are you looking for in a camera - great prints to hang on your wall or a gallery wall or something that looks good at 200% on your monitor?
RoyAmatore said:
--
Click to expand...
Truman
www.pbase.com/tprevatt
Click to expand...
Well, I don't see why I would ever want to look at an image at 200%, unless there is a pixel peeping use for this. My concern is more abstract. I just want sharpness. I want to look at a photo in whatever medium and say, Wow! that's sharp. I think what may be throwing me off is the fact that in enlarging the 24 MP FX image to 100% I am drilling down to a much smaller portion of the image that at, say, 16MP.
Click to expand...
100% crop is one that there is a one for one relationship between the pixels in the image and on your display device. That is there is no interpolation. Since the pixel density on a 24 MP camera is larger than that of a 16 MP sensor, you are looking at a smaller area. The area from the 24 MP will be 2/3's the size of that from the 16 MP.
 
RoyAmatore said:
Thank you. I appreciate all your responses. My take away is that greater pixel density requires greater stability. I also know that bopped around the hood snappin' shots is not a real test of any camera. I will say that the portraits I've taken with D750 appear very sharp to me.

5e304b49528544baa5c9e87a85f4e528.jpg
Click to expand...


I have no idea what post processing etc was done to this but that looks really bad to me..

--
Stacey
 
On average, FF cameras are heavier than crop/mirrorless counterpart. This weight actually reduce essential tremor--the involuntary shaking of hand. So, shake is actually less when holding a FF camera; but perceived shake may be more, as other have outlined.
 
25278ca889e7405184a18da20f44c202.jpg


Not a great picture I know, but hand held at 1/200th with no VR on a D750.

--
Phil Harris

500px

500px.com 500px.com
 
For the first 3 months after getting my D800 I was obsessed with sharpness - and why I wasn't getting it sometimes. Pixel peeping on a high mpx camera reveals all the errors that you just don't see when you look at a picture normally. Then I realised:

1. I was getting too much detail for some subjects and it wasn't necessary

2. I was not having any fun any more, carrying a tripod and my best lenses all the time

So I stopped worrying about ultimate sharpness except for specific subjects (landscapes). Some observations:

- If I'm using a lens without VR and I want it to be really sharp then I don't set the shutter speed less than 3x the focal length

- When using a tripod check out the Exposure Delay Mode which allows you to press the exposure release, flip the Mirror up then wait for up to 3 seconds before popping the shutter

- VR is very useful in making the image sharper. In low light with models I've been getting sharper images on VR lenses with modest apertures than with f2.8 constant zooms

- As you increase the ISO then definition drops anyway. By 1600 ISO lots of fine detail has disappeared

- Fine-tune the focussing on your lenses. Some of mine were way out

- Don't use a lens filter. Some of mine reduced sharpness
 
I posted this on another thread about this subject:
Franglais91 said:
The D800 has a pixel pitch of 4.88µ, and the D750 has a pixel pitch of 5.9µ. The difference of 1µ is 1/25 of the size (25x smaller) than what is visible to the human eye.

And yet, this has a difference? No, it doesn't. How can it? it's 1/1000 of a millimetre.

And if it's not that, then what is it, precisely? Because that's the only difference between the cameras.

All cameras are equally susceptible to the same movement.

I hand hold my D800. The results are the same as when I hand held my D300s, and there wasn't any of this nonsense about that (pixel pitch 5.5µ).
Click to expand...
 
Gareth Bourne said:
I posted this on another thread about this subject:
Member said:
The D800 has a pixel pitch of 4.88µ, and the D750 has a pixel pitch of 5.9µ. The difference of 1µ is 1/25 of the size (25x smaller) than what is visible to the human eye.

And yet, this has a difference? No, it doesn't. How can it? it's 1/1000 of a millimetre.

And if it's not that, then what is it, precisely? Because that's the only difference between the cameras.

All cameras are equally susceptible to the same movement.

I hand hold my D800. The results are the same as when I hand held my D300s, and there wasn't any of this nonsense about that (pixel pitch 5.5µ).
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Andrew 3 said:
Gareth Bourne said:
I posted this on another thread about this subject:
Andrew 3 said:
The D800 has a pixel pitch of 4.88µ, and the D750 has a pixel pitch of 5.9µ. The difference of 1µ is 1/25 of the size (25x smaller) than what is visible to the human eye.

And yet, this has a difference? No, it doesn't. How can it? it's 1/1000 of a millimetre.

And if it's not that, then what is it, precisely? Because that's the only difference between the cameras.

All cameras are equally susceptible to the same movement.

I hand hold my D800. The results are the same as when I hand held my D300s, and there wasn't any of this nonsense about that (pixel pitch 5.5µ).
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
RoyAmatore said:
I bought the D750 and have been taking some shots around the neighborhood and at home. I am finding that, on close inspection, following the shutter speed = focal length rule is not sufficient for truly sharp images. Indeed, even doubling the shutter speed does not seem to do the trick. I also notice that of all the sample pics I've seen, its very hard to find one that demonstrates the camera's sharpness. I realize that there are many factors that contribute to sharpness, but when I stand 8 feet away from a small object with a 50mm lens set at f.28 at low ISO and 1/50th of a second, and then zoom in to the LCD at 100%, the small object is not tack sharp. I would like to see a sample pic that shows incredibly sharp detail at 100%. That's what I expect from this camera. Is the full frame format the culprit here? Is VR a must? Any thoughts?
Click to expand...
No, exactly the same with the same field of view.

ie DX: 35mm, FX: 50mm same thing.
 
I'd like to add that for rather incomprehensible reasons the D810 offers a first curtain shutter, but the D750 does not. Does Nikon imply by that that the higher mp camera needs this feature, but the lower one does not? I know the 16 mp Olympus E-M1 benefits visibly from it in certain exposure time ranges.
 
Gareth Bourne said:
I don't think you understand the premise.

This is about the idea of whether or not a "high megapixel camera" (like the D8x0/e) is more susceptible to camera shake than a "low megapixel camera" (like the D3, D700, or maybe the D6x0 or D750).

If you believe the answer to that premise is YES, that a high megapixel camera is more susceptible to camera shake than a low megapixel camera, then you have to explain why you believe that when the difference in the size of the pixels between the cameras is of the order of 1/1000 of 1mm.

I believe the answer to be NO, and that all cameras are susceptible to the same movement, and anyone who think they can see a difference is imagining it.

This has nothing to do with how you display the relevant images, or to the degree you crop them, or the size you print them out. That is completely irrelevant to the question being asked.
Click to expand...
 
I haven't had any trouble getting sharp shots handheld with my D750. It may take a tad more effort than the D7000 that I am coming from, but only due to the increased resolution. The crop factor, reduced magnification, and higher available ISO more than make up for that.

With my 85mm f/1.8 at 1/60th of a second, I was able to get this one:
https://flic.kr/p/pCdWMd

That's cropped a bit, and although there are some problems with it, I feel like it's pretty sharp for being handheld with no VR, and slower than the 1/focal length rule of thumb. I think that having good technique in terms of tucking your elbows, controlling breathing, and squeezing the shutter properly all go a long way toward shots that are sharp enough hand held. Full frame doesn't seem to make that any harder.
 
Andrew 3 said:
Gareth Bourne said:
I don't think you understand the premise.

This is about the idea of whether or not a "high megapixel camera" (like the D8x0/e) is more susceptible to camera shake than a "low megapixel camera" (like the D3, D700, or maybe the D6x0 or D750).

If you believe the answer to that premise is YES, that a high megapixel camera is more susceptible to camera shake than a low megapixel camera, then you have to explain why you believe that when the difference in the size of the pixels between the cameras is of the order of 1/1000 of 1mm.

I believe the answer to be NO, and that all cameras are susceptible to the same movement, and anyone who think they can see a difference is imagining it.

This has nothing to do with how you display the relevant images, or to the degree you crop them, or the size you print them out. That is completely irrelevant to the question being asked.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

A
Full frame family camera suggestions
Replies
8
Views
7K
Ruedon
R
T
What to expect (D750-D810 night photography)
Replies
7
Views
2K
TIGGS247
T
S
  • User review User review
Decent photography camera for travel
Replies
3
Views
4K
SpaceDoge
S
B
More photos from my Speed Graphic with 120 roll film holder--river and cliffs, cabin, and table-top photos
Replies
1
Views
20K
Bill-in-KY
B
V
Nikon D750 wildlife images grainy
Replies
12
Views
378
duncang
D

Keyboard shortcuts

f
Forum
m
My threads
Mobile site
About
Editorial content
Cameras & Lenses
Community
All content, design, and layout are Copyright © 1998–2025 Digital Photography Review All Rights Reserved.
Reproduction in whole or part in any form or medium without specific written permission is prohibited.
When you use DPReview links to buy products, the site may earn a commission.
©GPS Media - Guides, Products, Services.
Back
Top